NC - MacDonald family murders at Fort Bragg, 1970 - Jeffrey MacDonald innocent?

Rocco

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But he had to pull it out---he needed to stab himself to set up his alibi. Besides, his wife was dead already so he wasn't worried about spurting...

He could have used something else to stab himself. A doctor never would have pulled it out of her chest---and he was a surgeon so everyone would have known he knew better. I think he claimed he pulled it out and claimed he did CPR just so he could explain how he got her blood all over himself. His cover up attempt was one big FAIL.
 

Trident

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I don't understand why he won't just 'fess up and try to get out on parole. Does he really believe he'll get a new trial and exhonoration?
 

katydid23

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He could have used something else to stab himself. A doctor never would have pulled it out of her chest---and he was a surgeon so everyone would have known he knew better. I think he claimed he pulled it out and claimed he did CPR just so he could explain how he got her blood all over himself. His cover up attempt was one big FAIL.

Sorry Rocco, I wasn't really disagreeing with you. Just attempting to be sarcastic.

You are making a very valid point.
 

borndem

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Here's what else makes absolutely no sense in his story: He claimed when he got to his wife, she had a knife/ice pick in her chest and he pulled it out and started CPR. A doctor, of all people, would know that you don't pull out an object impaled in a chest---you secure it. It acts as a plug and retards the bleeding. Pulling it out and then starting CPR would cause blood to shoot out of the wound and accelerate the bleeding (assuming she was still alive and had a heart beat) . I've followed the case fairly closely but I've never heard that brought up. Makes no sense.

Dr. MacD knew not to pull the knife out of her chest, but he had to do it since he knew he had to account for his fingerprints on it. He knew he had grabbed it from Collette. The helluvit was that she was not wounded by that knife, other than that wound, according to the autopsy. Collette got the knife from the storage area at the back of the bedroom to protect herself when she & Jeff were fighting. That bent knife was used to pry off paint can lids when they were painting Kim's (if my memory serves) bed. Oh, he thought he was so much smarter that the CID and the Feds -- typical Narcissist and sociopath. He found out differently with each group.
 

sooverit

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During cpr, I would imagine having a knife bouncing up and down in the chest cavity would do more harm than good. If the heart isn't beating, then you don't need to worry about hemorrhaging (the knife acting as a plug), you need a beating heart for blood to spurt.

Depending on where the attackers were supposed to make entry, (does anyone know?) I don't find it too odd that the wife and children were attacked before JM. Wouldn't most of us assume that in a darkened home after midnight that everyone would be in the bedrooms? They didn't think to check if anyone was sleeping in the livingroom.

JM said that what woke him up were screams from his family, not from being attacked. He got up to go see what was happening, and saw floppy hat woman and her candle, then he was attacked. His wife and children had no chance, they were awakened by being clubbed or stabbed and totally unprepared to defend themselves. If I had a weapon and was asked who I could inflict more damage on, a sleeping person, or an awake person? Hmmmmm. That might explain the difference in the injuries. These killers could have been cowards who didn't want to take on an adult who is fighting back, especially a green beret. They got him down and ran before he could get back up again.

BTW, I think he's probably guilty, but this case was so badly bungled that unless and until he admits it, I'll always have a little bit of doubt.
 

Boodles

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I had mixed feelings about watching because MacDonald is such an attention wh*re that I know he’s loving the fact that people are watching and talking about him. But I did watch. Nothing new.

IMO, there is no mystery whatsoever about this case. He’s a despicable human being who has no conscience. I’ll never watch or read another thing about him. He doesn’t deserve anyone’s time.
 

Seajay

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So, as claimed, was their really candle wax in the carpet?

Did that therapist/psychologist really say that JM was indeed a sociopath that was devoid of feeling?

I wanted him to be innocent. I followed the trial closely. When the murders occurred, hubby was stationed at Ft. Hood, TX. I was with him. Even though Ft. Bragg was an open base, Ft. Hood was not.

I read Fatal Vision, all the newspapers because at the time of the trial, he was an ER doctor at my local hospital.

Most of what he said never made sense and you never saw him cry or mourn the vicious loss of his family.

4 hippies I never the house. No hair, fingerprints, clothing fibers, foot prints in all that blood, nothing to prove anyone else but the family had been there. Not possible. Something would have been left behind. Something. He did it. And he's still paying for it. He's where he belongs.
 

sooverit

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Yes there was candle wax that didn't match candles in the house. Someone here said something about matching wax on bottles in the house, but I don't know where they got that information?

I don't know whether I should expect public crying from any man in our culture, and especially not a military man. What bothered me was the one interview where he was talking about the case and smiling and laughing. Yeah it was 8-9 years later, even so, I don't think I could ever smile about something so horrific. That to me is one of the indications of possible sociopathy. It's almost like there are times where he will "play the game" and give the expected emotions (as well as he is able) and others where he forgets that he needs to do that, the mask slips. You know?

The hippies thing bothers me, because he didn't describe them that way. Look at the pictures he did with a police artist and the descriptions below them. The guys have short hair, at least one clean shaven, no one in tie dye, etc. So the only one who could be described as a hippie is the floppy hat woman.

The police lost 40 fingerprints from the house, as well as a footprint in blood, so it's kind of hard to say there was nothing to prove anyone else was there. Maybe those prints would have been JM and his family's, but we don't know. There was black wool fibers not from the house, there was also hair from a wig.
 

Madeleine74

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This whole new genre, nicknamed by those in the industry, "injustice *advertiser censored*," gets big ratings. People just love a good conspiracy. Even a bad conspiracy will do. The important facts get left out so the side of injustice can be the north star.

Anyone who is interested in facts and truth would do best to steer clear of these kinds of faux-cumentories because what's being served is a bunch of pablum.
 

katydid23

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So, as claimed, was their really candle wax in the carpet?

Did that therapist/psychologist really say that JM was indeed a sociopath that was devoid of feeling?

I wanted him to be innocent. I followed the trial closely. When the murders occurred, hubby was stationed at Ft. Hood, TX. I was with him. Even though Ft. Bragg was an open base, Ft. Hood was not.

I read Fatal Vision, all the newspapers because at the time of the trial, he was an ER doctor at my local hospital.

Most of what he said never made sense and you never saw him cry or mourn the vicious loss of his family.

4 hippies I never the house. No hair, fingerprints, clothing fibers, foot prints in all that blood, nothing to prove anyone else but the family had been there. Not possible. Something would have been left behind. Something. He did it. And he's still paying for it. He's where he belongs.

I found an answer to the candle wax in past threads here:

Candle wax drippings were sourced to wine bottles used as a candle holder. We all did that back in the late 60's, 70's, well me and my friends did, don't know about yours. The wax drippings on the washer/dryer were candles you would put on a cake. You throw candles out when they burn down so that's probably the reason no candles were found.

As for Jimmy Frier, the defence had every opportunity to present him as a witness at trial but chose not to. Could be due to his leaving the treatment programme that day and relapsing.

If you want to pm me, I can give you links to the trial transcripts, all the hearings in fact, to the hospital records, lab tests, witness statements, etc.
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posted by Cami on 5/02/17

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...-Jeffrey-MacDonald-innocent/page96&styleid=21
 

Seajay

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I found an answer to the candle wax in past threads here:

Candle wax drippings were sourced to wine bottles used as a candle holder. We all did that back in the late 60's, 70's, well me and my friends did, don't know about yours. The wax drippings on the washer/dryer were candles you would put on a cake. You throw candles out when they burn down so that's probably the reason no candles were found.

As for Jimmy Frier, the defence had every opportunity to present him as a witness at trial but chose not to. Could be due to his leaving the treatment programme that day and relapsing.

If you want to pm me, I can give you links to the trial transcripts, all the hearings in fact, to the hospital records, lab tests, witness statements, etc.
Multi-Quote This Message
posted by Cami on 5/02/17

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...-Jeffrey-MacDonald-innocent/page96&styleid=21

Thank you katydid. I use to put candles in bottles as a holder back in the day as well.

So there was an alternate source to the candles drippings other than the floppy hat girl.

I was so intrigued by this case. When I was at TI, that's only about a 15 minute/20 minute drive from me. The hospital her was an ER doctor at is the hospital I go to.
 

fatdumplins

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Was this who we now know as "The Golden State Killer"? If so, I believe it took place mere hours after said meeting.

I remember hearing about a man who said something similar at a town meeting when there was a series of rapes in a community. There's no way he'd allow his wife to be raped, he would die before he'd let it happen, and no man would stand by and allow it to happen either.

That man spoke at a meeting about the East Area Rapist. Eventually EAR came into his home, bound the man, and raped his wife.
 

lonetraveler

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Here's what else makes absolutely no sense in his story: He claimed when he got to his wife, she had a knife/ice pick in her chest and he pulled it out and started CPR. A doctor, of all people, would know that you don't pull out an object impaled in a chest---you secure it. It acts as a plug and retards the bleeding. Pulling it out and then starting CPR would cause blood to shoot out of the wound and accelerate the bleeding (assuming she was still alive and had a heart beat) . I've followed the case fairly closely but I've never heard that brought up. Makes no sense.

Yeah but he needed the ice pick so that he could stab himself.
 

fatdumplins

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Furthermore, during Freddy Kassab's testimony he raises damningly inculpatory facts concerning MacDonald's alleged order of events. For instance, he points out how Macdonald stated that during the attack on himself while on the couch he never got above the seated position, more importantly while leaning forward into his attackers. Considering that the majority of the scrapes he sustained were to his abdomen this makes his recollection a near physical impossibility. Oh and once again, no blood at the site of his attack.
I am in the middle of reading Christina Masewicz's "Scales of Justice" right now and will repost once complete and my knowledge has reached new depths.

I have followed this case for years. I have combed through all available evidence to the public. What I question is that MacDonald reports that he awakened to Colette and Kimberley screaming... "Help me Jeff".... and "Daddy, Daddy, Daddy...." when he awakened 3 male intruders were attacking him on the couch and a woman was standing there. If he was awakened by screams.. Colette and Kimberley were already being attacked... but by who? If the 3 intruders were at the couch attacking him, they can't be attacking the girls at the same time. Were there more than 4 intruders? It's impossible for 5-6 people to be in a small apartment and leave no evidence they were there. Also what weapons were being used on Colette and Kimberley? The intruders can't use the same weapons in two different places at once. The intruders in the bedroom didn't stop to borrow the weapons from the people attacking MacDonald on the couch. Evidence supports that the 3 weapons being used on MacDonald on the couch were the same weapons used to kill Colette, Kimberley, and Kristin. Again.. At the time he was attacked he reported hearing the girls screaming. How can they be screaming from an attack with the same weapons at the same time the attackers are at the couch attacking him? He left foot print evidence in the hallway whether it was from killing them or going room to room to check on them.... he still left physical evidence and he is one person. How did 4-6 people kill 3 people, walk through the house, and left no blood evidence anywhere? No shoe print, hand print, or fiber. But one man leaves a foot print after "checking on the 3 girls and attempting CPR" But not one intruder left one shoe print - they had to have gotten blood on themselves from closely and repeatedly stabbing the victims. Blood all over Colette's floor and not one time during the attack did the attacker step in her blood and leave a print anywhere. But the husband managed to leave a print. Also, if he attempted mouth to mouth on his wife like he said, then called for help from the bedroom phone, why was there not blood or a bloody fingerprint on the phone from him. He used two different phones and did not leave one blood smudge, fingerprint or handprint. I just can't find him innocent, no matter how hard I have tried.
 

deebell510

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New to this forum, but a couple things I'd like to point out that I hadn't seen brought up.

First, blood was found on the Esquire magazine that was under the coffee table in the living room. I believe it was typed as Colette's and Kristen's. Also, Kristen's blood was found on the side of Jeffery's glasses that were also found in the living room. The supposition is that that after he killed Kristen, he went into the living room, picked up his glasses, thumbed through the magazine, then tried to stage the scene.

Also, much has been made up about the blonde hairs found in hair brushes. The girls had many dolls, several with long blonde hair. Which is more probable, little girls brushing their dolls hair, or an intruder taking time to brush her hair in the midst of a killing frenzy.

One other thing, a limb hair that was found in Colette's hand, along with splinters from the club, was DNA matched to Jeff.
 

Paul B.

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Judith Barsi (toddler Kimmy in "Fatal Vision") would have gone far had her violent alcoholic father not murdered her. A lesser-known aspect which i wish got more attention is the psych impact on Judith of having to play girls substantially younger than her real age. Take the Mattel "Bottle Time Baby" doll advert where they've dressed Judith very doll-like and tried to make her look as young as possible in that dress. Even in "Fatal Vision" she has a scene where she's in a toddler chair (basically a high chair) and she was six when they filmed it.
 
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