NC - MacDonald family murders at Fort Bragg, 1970 - Jeffrey MacDonald innocent?

Discussion in 'Past Trial Discussion Threads' started by hockeymom, Nov 2, 2003.

  1. Thepoet

    Thepoet Well-Known Member

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    Mica said the woman in the floppy hat was NOT Helena.

    Freddy proved no fight took place in the living room. Lack of space, light, and unbalanced China and greeting cards dudn't fall over!

    You're so right about the results of fighting a Green Beret. And MacDonald trained with the boxing team! The real fighter, the real hero in that house was Collette, not convict!
     
  2. AGettler

    AGettler Active Member

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    I think a paramedic admitted the cards were down so he set them back up. If true, how weird is that with 4 bloodied bodies you are supposed to work on but you are going to do some house work?
     
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  3. Thepoet

    Thepoet Well-Known Member

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    I've never read that about the paramedic and I've read a lot about the case. Regardless, there was sufficient evidence that NO struggle took place in the living room. This includes the fact that the living room ceiling was low and someone swinging a bat or club, as MacDonald described, would have hit the ceiling. There were no marks on the ceiling. With four people fighting, moving around, and the girl moving to stay out of the way, the living room should have been in a shambles! And it all took place in the dark, with out any sounds being heard? Nope.
     
  4. topcop

    topcop Member

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    There's a mountain of evidence that MacDonald committed these murders and that’s why despite endless trials, hearings, witness testimony, and countless reviews he's still in jail. He most likely will die in jail.

    The problem becomes that the average lay person believes that police and the legal system should operate "flawlessly".
    They don't. Mistakes are often made, mostly through carelessness and sometimes deliberately. When they are discovered by the defense, they are pounced on - and rightly so. But then the defense attorneys and some of the general public takes it to the next level. Their position being that because these errors were made - therefore the defendant is innocent - which very seldom ever proves to be the case.

    There are so many reasons not to believe MacDonald’s accounts of the murders. I have always liked this one that goes to the heart of common sense.
    3 men and a woman appear in his living room. The 3 men attack with an ice pick and club. He fends off the ice pick attempts to stab him numerous times with his pajama top using it as a kind of shield; (if memory serves there are over 20 puncture holes in his pajama top).

    That pajama top, he explained later was placed over his wife's chest (by him) with holes that matched the puncture marks on her body (but that's another story and a huge problem for MacDonald.).

    Anyway, just for grins, gather 3 of your favorite male friends and re-create (anyway you wish, using harmless props to represent an icepick and a club). Instruct the 3 of them to try to "stab you” with the icepick and “bash you” with the club while you fend them off with a pajama top. Try it and see how often they actually make contact to your body vs how often you repel their attempts with a pajama top. No one, no how, no way does that happen – not even if you’re Bruce Lee.

    In real life your wrists and forearms are shredded by the icepick – at a minimum. Nothing like that happened to MacDonald. In terms of injuries, he's discharged from the hospital after a very short time while his family was savagely mutilated.
     
  5. borndem

    borndem Anglophile & registered demwit

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    Absolutely excellent, topcop. 100%.
     
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  6. Paul B.

    Paul B. Well-Known Member

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    Judith Barsi (toddler Kim in the 1984 miniseries) would have gone far had a paranoid and abusive drunkard not killed her and her mother because he found out they was going to leave him.
     
  7. borndem

    borndem Anglophile & registered demwit

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    bbm
    Yep, it's definitely Nope.
    Further, how could he read what kind of shirt one of them was wearing in total darkness -- he said that it was a GI uniform shirt on in total darkness -- he id'd the rank in total darkness. He id'd the weapon in total darkness; he id'd the races of the intruders in total darkness. He said the woman had on boots in total darkness - shiny boots. She was carrying a candle -- I guess that candle lit up the entire room. One candle. SMH. Idiot.
    Many people think that when you are cooking up an alibi or recounting an event that did not happen, etc., be specific with lotsa details. Well, that's an old ploy, it usually backfires, and experienced LE usually don't buy it. It makes LE even more suspicious, and the teller of the tale now owns that explanation; so he had to remember it and stick by what he said -- he couldn't renege and tell a better, more reasonable lie after having more time to think of a better scenario.
    And I have never heard of one of the paramedics tidying up the place (greeting cards), especially when three people,are dead or nearly so. Blood everywhere, and horrible wounds on those three victims, but not on MacD. Three of them being horribly beaten and/or slashed, and they are dying or dead. The EMTs know to scoop 'em up and get them in an ambulance and try to keep them alive until they're taken into hospital.
    One more thing -- our next-door neighbors at the time it happened, had lived on that base years before, and they had lived in that same neighborhood. They said you could hear the flush of a commode (their literal words), someone laugh, or sneeze, or hear a baby cry in the next-door apartment -- that's what made them skeptical from the get-go. Not possible, they said. I have never forgotten that.

    Short answer -- Nope
    Long answer -- Hell, nope.
     
    Last edited: May 21, 2019
  8. Satch

    Satch Well-Known Member

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    What is still strange is that according to FV. nobody on the base heard any evidence of a struggle in the early morning hours of February 17, 1070. I remember with one exception from FV a Mrs. Kallen who said that "She was awakened from sleep by the sound of Collette's voice that she said "sounded mad enough to kill." She testified to the effect of the following. (May not be exact, but close. )

    "What do you think I am going to be doing when you are doing all this? If you touch one hair on those children's heads, I'll kill you!" Than a short time later, she heard what she said sounded like the voice of Jeffrey MacDonald, either laughing or crying hysterically." How far did the Kallen's live from the McDonald's?

    Yes, the living room is too neat, and for MacDonald to remember to have seen such details in total darkness seems not plausible. Even if there was a flashlight or a candle as he claimed a woman in a floppy hat was holding, I don't think that would have made too much of a difference.. Freddy Kassab, when he toured the apartment with LE, was further able to determine that McDonald's story did not match the physical evidence found at the scene. At if this had been an attack, one or more of those hippies would have been seriously injured or even dead in a fight with a Green Barret. Who is crazy enough to break into the house of a Green Baret Army doctor and attack his pregnant wide and two little girls? Did they really think they were going to win? And why leave the main person (that you would want to kill) alive who could come back and identify you. If MacDonald was telling the truth, he would be more injured. And the alleged hippies were not injured at all. And the bloody hands or whatever on a supposed witness at Dunken Donuts according to FJ, I don't think was ever verified.

    But it has been may years since I have read FV (Fatal Vision) and FJ (Fatal Justice.)

    Satch
     
    Last edited: May 21, 2019
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  9. borndem

    borndem Anglophile & registered demwit

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    Yep again, Satch.
    I also remember those words from Ms. Kallen. What Collette was said to be telling MacD sounds like she was in a fight for her and her girls' lives, and she was indeed.
     
  10. mickey2942

    mickey2942 Well-Known Member

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    Back then, military ate amphetamines like they were candy. McDonald, a Green Beret, doctor...think he might have been working a bit too much? He comes home to pregnant wife, kid that pees in his bed...and he is frustrated with being "responsible daddy", he could be out enjoying life, not stuck with a wife and kids...he hits his daughter a bit too hard, smack, she hits the wall...Collette starts screaming, react, oh oh...can't fix this...
     
  11. borndem

    borndem Anglophile & registered demwit

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    Yes, to the amphetamines -- in his log of the day's activities, he writes something like, "I may have taken a couple of Eskatrol..." If you look up Eskatrol, you will see that 1) it was taken off the market years ago, and 2) it is a combination of amphetamines and tranquilizers. MacD was working at the base, at a nearby non-military hospital ER, and he had just found another hospital to do ER work. Anything to keep him from having to be at home. He had been up about 26 hours.

    It's not difficult to imagine him losing his temper when he went to bed found his side wet. No excuse for the murder of the ones who loved him best, certainly, but it would surely pizz me off. Colleen was pregnant -- getting bigger every day -- added pressure on both of them -- she was going to a class one or two nights a week and studying, she had the two girls all day, no help from him at home, MacD was talking about going to Russia (a big fat lie), and she thought he was running around on her (he was). So it's not hard for me to imagine those two having quite an argument. And their marriage was a "have-to" since she was already pregnant those few years before. They were young and each had a big load to carry. So the stage was set for a big one.
     
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  12. katydid23

    katydid23 Verified Juanette

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    There is one thing I know for certain. If my husband was in the living room, and 3 intruders came in, and threatened our children, my husband would be DEAD on the floor, before anyone killed the babies. He would fight to the death before giving up.

    Just the fact that a Green Beret father was the only one left alive, tells me all I need to know.
     

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