NC - Two Duke Lacrosse Players Indicted

[BillyGoatGruff]

While I'll no doubt get blasted for this by the Pollyannas in the group, I need to state something here. While there are those who work in the sex industry who are sober, responsible & level-headed small businesswomen (and men), they are in the minority. I would say 5%, and most of those are in the "management" positions.

There are two types of people those who run escort agencies don't trust: their clients & the people who work for them. The johns part no doubt makes sense--a lot of these guys are trying to rip off the company & the girls, and many prove to be dangerous, while some are cops. I was surprised at how little the companies trusted the girls working for them--but I soon learned why.

Being a mother and student isn't rare in the escort business. In fact, I would say 90% have kids, and at least 50% were trying to finish college. And I would say 80% have serious alcohol & drug problems, mostly cocaine, crack & meth. Many of the girls would steal money from clients, or take their fees and instead of drop it off with the agency, run to the first crack house they could find. Others would supposedly talk to a client they had been set up with, then call back to the agency to tell us the cleint had changed his mind, then go do the call--which was known as "stealing a fee". Others would show up to a call wasted and/or become violent/crazy with a client. We had lists of girls who were either blacklisted or "on probation" because they had stolen fees, rolled clients or showed up to calls messed up. Sometimes they could not come back to work for the agency until they had undergone detox.

After a couple of months I learned which girls were reliable & trustworthy and which ones were ticking timebombs. And occasionally I would find myself screwed over by a girl I had previously thought to be reliable. But, as the owner of the business (and a former escort herself) once reminded me: "Trust none of them, because, when you get down to the reality of it, everyone you're dealing with is a criminal." She finally stopped using retired escorts in the office after we came to work one day to find the compuers stolen, the safe pried up out of the floor, and the credit card machine stolen. From then on in she only hired people who had backgrounds in running small business offices.

None of this may be politically correct, but it is the cold, hard reality of the business--and the reason I don't trust a thing about this case.

 

[mic730]

It was mentioned on Fox today that there is tube of KY jelly that was taken from the house and that the accuser had Ky jelly on her body. I don't know the accuaracy of that report.

Also one thing that really nags at me is that when the police went to the house after the first 911 call about racial slurs that the lights were out and the door was not answered.

 

[evelyn24]

I am sure she did have KY if she was an escort..imo.

Certainly most straight young guys are not carrying that.

So the id was prejudicial and even then the two apparently have alibis.

Gee...ya' think this girl was wasted and scared when she saw the cop, and claimed rape to get out of being arrested, and this thing BLEW UP bigger than she thought?
A DA promising an arrest during one of his 70 plus interviews, all to calm the black community, then he pursues the case with blinders on to win an election.

It is funny that NiFong refused to look at the pics the defense team had offered to show him so he would not indict anyone, but he still indicted two guys, then has the nerve to interview reporters this week about what was in the photos.

No wonder the Durham police are not happy with the way NiFong has handled this case.

 

[MSM]

New Newsweek article about the case:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12442765/site/newsweek/

I haven't read the whole article yet but in the first page, it says that Seligman made 8 phone calls on his cell between 12:05 and 12:24. Unless someone else was using his phone, I don't see how he could be gang-raping someone and chatting on the phone at the same time.

I have tried to keep an open mind about this case, and I do believe that SOMETHING happened in that house to upset both women, but I am finding it hard to believe that a gang rape truly occurred if the evidence that the defense is presenting is true. Plus, I don't understand why the police didn't include others besides the lacrosse team in the lineup. Isn't that a violation of standard procedure?

Finally, the self-serving attitude of Roberts really bothers me. Apparently she became indignant when a reporter questioned her on why she should benefit from being involved in this story, acting as if she is entitled to gain from it somehow. It seems really low to try to exploit your acquaintance's misfortune. She is going to be a problem for the prosecution if this goes to trial.

 

[Linda7NJ]

Kind of hard for parents to go to college with their kids.
Then again, this is what is called the learning curve. This is where you learn the hard way that excessive drinking/partying and getting involved in marginally criminal activities has a definite downside.

She was hired through an escort service? I thought she was a stripper? I have a close friend that was a "dancer" for years and seldom if ever did private showings. But she always always had a bouncer with her to run interference when she did. It's my understanding that having a bouncer along was SOP? No?

 

[Linda7NJ]

I am wondering if the DA could be offering the third man immunity for his testimony against the other two? :blowkiss:

I don't believe they raped her.

 

[MSM]

Something else is bothering me, too, with the date-rape drug angle. According to the Newsweek article and Kim Roberts, the women were given drinks shortly after the AV arrived, 11:53 pm according to many timelines. Roberts claims the victim was already showing signs of intoxication while dancing--they stopped dancing at 12:03, per the timeline. However, the two most common date-rape drugs (Rohypnol and GHB) have an onset of action of at least 10-15 minutes:

http://www.aafp.org/afp/20040601/2619.html

http://www.macep.org/practice_information/daterape.htm



So, while the accuser is allegedly being raped, she would have just begun to show signs of intoxication and would not have been maximally sedated. The timeline doesn't fit with use of a date-rape drug, IMO. If the players were planning to drug her and rape her, they likely would have waited longer for her to be completely passed out before attempting the rape. Also, all sides seem to agree that there was a dispute about the length of the time that the dancers performed--they were supposed to dance for 2 hours, and the players were upset that they didn't. Why would the players try to drug the dancers as soon as they arrived at the party if they were expecting a 2 hour show? This doesn't make sense.

 

[mic730]

Thanks for hthe Newsweek link.

 

[Bee Charmer]

I found the article in the NYT very interesting. It said that in the statement the team captains gave to LE, before retaining their
attorneys, they failed to include Seligmann as one of the team players
who attended the party. How did they miss him, sitting there on
the couch, all 6' 2", 200+ pounds of him, in a red shirt? Have they
been caught in a lie? Is this the basis for Mr. Nifong's aid and
abetting threat?

It's curious to me that Kerry Sutton, one the of team captains
attorneys has been very quiet since the indictments have
come down. Could she and her client be cooperating with
LE?

Also interesting are these facts that are in a Newsweek story:

defense lawyer Bill Thomas told NEWSWEEK that in the first round some DNA showed up under the woman's fingernails, though tests were inconclusive about identity.

and


Nifong, a white man who is running for election in a racially mixed county, hinted to NEWSWEEK that blood and urine tests of the woman would reveal the presence of a date-rape drug.

The second dna results are due back on 5/15/06, the same day Mr. Nifong said on Sunday that he may indict the third player. (GJ meets that day.)

Newsweek link:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12442765/site/newsweek/

Here is the title of the NYT article:
Call to Escort Service Began a Night of Trouble at Duke
By DUFF WILSON and JULIET MACUR
Published: April 23, 2006



You must register to read the NYT, but it's free.

 

[Summerskye1]

Something else is bothering me, too, with the date-rape drug angle. According to the Newsweek article and Kim Roberts, the women were given drinks shortly after the AV arrived, 11:53 pm according to many timelines. Roberts claims the victim was already showing signs of intoxication while dancing--they stopped dancing at 12:03, per the timeline. However, the two most common date-rape drugs (Rohypnol and GHB) have an onset of action of at least 10-15 minutes:

http://www.aafp.org/afp/20040601/2619.html

http://www.macep.org/practice_information/daterape.htm

So, while the accuser is allegedly being raped, she would have just begun to show signs of intoxication and would not have been maximally sedated. The timeline doesn't fit with use of a date-rape drug, IMO. If the players were planning to drug her and rape her, they likely would have waited longer for her to be completely passed out before attempting the rape. Also, all sides seem to agree that there was a dispute about the length of the time that the dancers performed--they were supposed to dance for 2 hours, and the players were upset that they didn't. Why would the players try to drug the dancers as soon as they arrived at the party if they were expecting a 2 hour show? This doesn't make sense.

My guess is that IF this alleged attack was planned in advance and was meant to include the use of a date rape drug, the attackers' timeline was screwed up when the girls left abruptly after allegedly being threatened with sodomization-by-broomstick. Instead of the leisurely two hours they had in mind, they faced some unexpected 'challenges' and had to improvise.

I don't mean to sound so indifferent or cold about it, I'm just trying to type quickly and get back to work! :blushing:

 

[Wudge]

My guess is that IF this alleged attack was planned in advance and was meant to include the use of a date rape drug, the attackers' timeline was screwed up when the girls left abruptly after allegedly being threatened with sodomization-by-broomstick. Instead of the leisurely two hours they had in mind, they faced some unexpected 'challenges' and had to improvise.

I don't mean to sound so indifferent or cold about it, I'm just trying to type quickly and get back to work! :blushing:

If you want sex, why pay two women $800 to slip them a date rape drug ?

My take is that this stoeyline is much more likely to be Michael Nifong's "win the election" gambit. For the test results will not be back until after the May 2nd (why can they not be back earlier) election is over. In other words, in my mind, this is likely to be nothing more than a race card ploy.

 

[Masissy]

If you want sex, why pay two women $800 to slip them a date rape drug ?

My take is that this stoeyline is much more likely to be Michael Nifong's "win the election" gambit. For the test results will not be back until after the May 2nd (why can they not be back earlier) election is over. In other words, in my mind, this is likely to be nothing more than a race card ploy.

Maybe they couldn't come up on their own with the amount of $ for a prostitute and a few decided to take advantange of the stripper and everyones' contribution.

 

[Summerskye1]

But Wudge, your question assumes that rapes are committed simply for the purpose of obtaining sex. It is not a valid assumption.

I'm going to sound like a Women's Studies professor or something for a moment here, but rape is often (if not always) a crime of power, control, violence, humiliation, dominance, and so forth. I'm certainly no expert on the subject, but there are plenty of rapes committed by people who could have had consensual sex instead if they wanted to. Some people, for their own twisted reasons, actually prefer an unwilling or unconscious "partner."

From some of the reports (and of course, we don't really know what to believe quite yet), it sounds like some of the young men were looking to degrade or humiliate these dancers from the very start. On purpose, I mean, and as a key part of their "fun."

And even assuming - for the sake of argument only - that the men could have had sex with these women or one of the women for the right price, how do we know that the men wanted to PAY that price? Aren't they also accused of taking money back from the AV? Maybe they figured that it would be easy enough to take their money back from an unconscious woman. Maybe they would have been charged much MORE $$ for sex (again, I'm only saying this for the sake of argument and not because there's any evidence to believe this could have happened).

Maybe they had only planned on making the women pass out so they could take photos or video of themselves doing "stuff" to the women, but got angry when the women left after the broomstick threat and so they decided to take things a bit further. Who knows?

 

[Details]

Rape has nothing to do with sex. It's about power. You can buy sex - you can't buy a rape.

 

[Jeana (DP)]

I don't know anything about what a prostitute makes, but I watch Cops on television and seems to me that you can get your rocks off for less than $50. If these guys just wanted to have sex, it seems to me that it would be easy enough to do. Sounds to me like it was one of those stupid male-bonding type things. I don't know if this girl was raped, and, if so, if it was planned in advance or a spur of the moment thing, but something tells me that it would have been easy enough for these guys to get laid if that's what they were after. :twocents:

 

[BillyGoatGruff]

She was hired through an escort service? I thought she was a stripper? I have a close friend that was a "dancer" for years and seldom if ever did private showings. But she always always had a bouncer with her to run interference when she did. It's my understanding that having a bouncer along was SOP? No?

Plenty of strippers also work foer escort agencies, and if you look at what escort agencies offer it usually lists "dinner companion, nude modeling, massage & exotic dancing". And being a stripper isn't what it used to be. Burlesque dancers actually have routines, costumes, and some dance training--and they never take all their close off. Strippers basically stand around naked (except for shoes) and hump a pole for 10-15 minutes.
And, yes, having a male driver is uswlly standard--especially when dealing with parties/frat house situations. It's too easy for things to get out of hand.

 

[BillyGoatGruff]

My guess is that IF this alleged attack was planned in advance and was meant to include the use of a date rape drug, the attackers' timeline was screwed up when the girls left abruptly after allegedly being threatened with sodomization-by-broomstick. Instead of the leisurely two hours they had in mind, they faced some unexpected 'challenges' and had to improvise.

I don't mean to sound so indifferent or cold about it, I'm just trying to type quickly and get back to work! :blushing:

Then why pay them $800? Why not both women? Why not take their money back? Why leave a trail a blind man could follow? There's a lot about this case that doesn't add up, especially if you know the business. Escorts get raped all the time--and the dudes always take back their money (if they gave them any in the first place) and use motels, not residences they can be traced back to.
It's more likely that the team ordered one set of girls, had a bait & switch pulled on them, and became verbally abusive when they realized they'd been gypped because it put the kibosh on sex for them. Also, the first thing that comes to mind when someone I don't know is hogging the john in my house during a party is that they're doing drugs in there. The other drug that mimicks how this woman was behaving after the dancing is heroin--especially if it's snorted.

 

[BillyGoatGruff]

But Wudge, your question assumes that rapes are committed simply for the purpose of obtaining sex. It is not a valid assumption.

I'm going to sound like a Women's Studies professor or something for a moment here, but rape is often (if not always) a crime of power, control, violence, humiliation, dominance, and so forth. I'm certainly no expert on the subject, but there are plenty of rapes committed by people who could have had consensual sex instead if they wanted to. Some people, for their own twisted reasons, actually prefer an unwilling or unconscious "partner."

From some of the reports (and of course, we don't really know what to believe quite yet), it sounds like some of the young men were looking to degrade or humiliate these dancers from the very start. On purpose, I mean, and as a key part of their "fun."

And even assuming - for the sake of argument only - that the men could have had sex with these women or one of the women for the right price, how do we know that the men wanted to PAY that price? Aren't they also accused of taking money back from the AV? Maybe they figured that it would be easy enough to take their money back from an unconscious woman. Maybe they would have been charged much MORE $$ for sex (again, I'm only saying this for the sake of argument and not because there's any evidence to believe this could have happened).

Maybe they had only planned on making the women pass out so they could take photos or video of themselves doing "stuff" to the women, but got angry when the women left after the broomstick threat and so they decided to take things a bit further. Who knows?

From the description, this was a case of bait and switch with at least one seriously impaired performer and a dance that only went on for about 3-4 minutes. This is a standard recipe for angry clients. What I suspect is that there was a lot of bad blood on the part of the lacrosse team as they felt they had been ripped off, and some choice, racially-loaded language was thrown back and forth, as well as verbal threats and ugliness--but I strongly suspect that was all. And I'm unsure if half of the money was taken back or refunded, which is standard in situations like this one. In any case, I found it highly telling that Jesse Jackson stated that he would help the victim whether it turned out her story was true or not--which suggests even HE has his doubts. Which says a lot, when you think about the people he's allied himself with over the last couple of years.

 

[BillyGoatGruff]

I don't know anything about what a prostitute makes, but I watch Cops on television and seems to me that you can get your rocks off for less than $50. If these guys just wanted to have sex, it seems to me that it would be easy enough to do. Sounds to me like it was one of those stupid male-bonding type things. I don't know if this girl was raped, and, if so, if it was planned in advance or a spur of the moment thing, but something tells me that it would have been easy enough for these guys to get laid if that's what they were after. :twocents:

I wouldn't compare escorts with street hookers. Escorts usually range between $175-$800 a hour. Street hookers are available for whatever a rock of crack or a bump of meth is going for.

 

[Wudge]

From the description, this was a case of bait and switch with at least one seriously impaired performer and a dance that only went on for about 3-4 minutes. This is a standard recipe for angry clients. What I suspect is that there was a lot of bad blood on the part of the lacrosse team as they felt they had been ripped off, and some choice, racially-loaded language was thrown back and forth, as well as verbal threats and ugliness--but I strongly suspect that was all. And I'm unsure if half of the money was taken back or refunded, which is standard in situations like this one. In any case, I found it highly telling that Jesse Jackson stated that he would help the victim whether it turned out her story was true or not--which suggests even HE has his doubts. Which says a lot, when you think about the people he's allied himself with over the last couple of years.

When the women were in the bathroom, the players slipped them more money under the door.

Put that with the other things such: as no matching DNA, no finding that a condom was used, no DNA under her fingernails, an ID done by scrath marks, etc., and my BS antenna says a lot of things are just not right about this alleged rape.