Ned's Final Theory-Lou Smit are you still reading here?

JMO8778

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Solace said:
Thank you UK. This is a horrific murder. There is no evidence of an intruder after 10 years, and I don't believe there ever will be. My son was telling me about this show he saw on two murders and the detectives were speaking of the victims and the crime scene. The gist is (they said) that the crime scene of a murder at the time of the murder is a hundred times worse than what we read about or hear about.

My point in bringing this up is I think there were some horrific things going on that night. They brought her to the basement and it was horrific down there. I don't know where she was hit, can't even speculate.

I read somewhere that there were fibers from the cord around her hands in her bed. As you said, she is wearing size 12 underwear. Why is she wearing those. It is just very strange. Everything about this murder is strange and the Ramseys, imo, have tried to appear as loving as possible BECAUSE they know how horrible is was that night.

We see them on tv dressed up with Patsy and her suits and her make up and John very softspoken. But this is not the way they were that night. They were horrific. I really believe this now.
me too.well-said.
 

JMO8778

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Dressing a child the way a parent wants is hopefully done in the best interests of the child. Patsy had a right to enter JonBenet in pageants; and, unfortunately, she did just that. It was not a "second thought" type of thing as Patsy and John said. It required hours upon hours of rehearsal for JonBenet. It required her to forego her childhood. This does not make Patsy a murderer. It does shed some light on Patsy as a person, extremely selfish.
Yes,and the selection and fitting of costumes,and the makeup that made her look like an adult had to be prof. applied I believe...took a lot of time it would seem.
I can't believe she had her singing and dancing for a full day at school.I would think one performance would be enough for someone her age.
 

JMO8778

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UKGuy said:
Solace,

Yes other Medical Practitioners, and various paediatricans were of the firm opinion that JonBenet had been sexually abused prior to the night of her death, they cite healed internal scarring as support, along with the unnatural enlargement of her hymen.

Although the above is contentious, her enlarged hymen is not, this did not occur that night, it likely took place over a period of time.

Coroner Meyer is an experienced pathologist, so when he opines whilst performing an autopsy that this body appears to have been the victim of digital penetration based upon her enlarged hymen, then its safe to assume he is correct.

If you factor in her visits to the family doctor for genital infections, bedwetting etc, then its possible these may be linked to any ongoing sexual abuse.

So JonBenet's size-6 underwear is missing replaced by the size-12's, now this cannot be because they were soiled or urine-soaked since the size-12's and longjohns left on her were also urine-soaked!

If you consider the missing size-6 underwear as forensic evidence removed from the original crime-scene e.g. not the wine-cellar, then they must have played a part in her death. So either they will have contained blood stains, pubic hairs and/or semen else why remove them?

So rather than an Intruder or Toilet Rage Theory I reckon people should consider a Sexual Rage Theory as the cause of JonBenet's death, it may ultimately not be correct, but it would be more consistent with the current forensic evidence than either of the Intruder or Toilet Rage Theories!


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I think so too.It certainly makes more sense.But as to which one actually killed her...any thoughts? Who did what is where I get confused !
 

JMO8778

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UKGuy said:
rashomon,

Thats if you assume some kind of violent rape scenario.

JonBenet may have been being regularly sexually abused, she displays the signs of this both physically and emotionally, her recurrent bedwetting and daytime soiling may have been her way in attempting to communicate her inner trauma?

JonBenet will have played a role in some other adult's fantasy, over time, this may have escalated, leaving JonBenet emotionally confused and disorientated, she will have felt an intense anger towards her abuser, causing her further inner turmoil.

So its possible she refused to take part in some session of abuse, or during it her abuser, already sexually aroused and excited, went one step too far, forgetting she was only six-years old. Or JonBenet stated she was going to tell her family doctor or the school nurse whatever, at this point her abuser, taking JonBenet by the neck, told her to shut up, as she was slowly asphyxiated, then as she was released her head hits the floor, fracturing her skull.

The sexual rage I am considering need not be violent in origin more the kind of impetus resulting from seeking pleasure that yields a disregard, or thoughtfulness for the victim.

So rather than JonBenet refusing to take part, her participation may have put her abuser over the edge so to speak!


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That sounds like the most likely explanation,IMO.Either that or PR came in and she and JR got into an argument,and PR hurt JB due to jealousy and or to permanently get back at JR.

I do think she was taken to the basement for the specific reason of being sexually abused.I suspect she made the 911 call on the 23rd, and some type of abuse occured then.I also think the after-xmas santa visit was in fact a reference to the night of the 25th..another attempt to molest her,since the previous attempt went awry.(And was the perp wearing a santa suit to disguise himself,with JB ultimately figuring out who it was and being killed for that reason?)And the scream heard in the basement was the start of the assault against her,possibly by her shirt being twisted or manual strangulation,and someone hesitated for a moment,at that point undecided about what to do next.
Based on the evidence,and using Occam's razor theory...this is what I believe to be true.
 

IrishMist

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4sure said:
Sorry that is a bogus article. You should never go to the National Enquire for facts on anything yet going to a sceond hand source to prove a point. It looks bad.
Why not go to the National Enquirer for facts? They get it right far more often than they get it wrong.
 

icedtea4me

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IrishMist said:
Why not go to the National Enquirer for facts? They get it right far more often than they get it wrong.
They certainly did when it came to O.J. wearing the Bruno Maglia shoes. One thing I distinctly remember about the April 3, 2001 issue of the NE was the pic of JonBenet. Based on her short hair, she was most likely four years old or so when the pic was taken. She is wearing a black headband and a pink t-shirt over a longer sleeved black t-shirt, and she is holding her dog, Jacques.


-Tea
 

Solace

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4sure said:
Sorry that is a bogus article. You should never go to the National Enquire for facts on anything yet going to a sceond hand source to prove a point. It looks bad.
4Sure: The National Enquirer published a book which comprises ONLY the police interviews, 4 in all of the Ramseys. This is not a second hand source; it is the direct interviews from the Ramseys by Steve Thomas, Tom Haney, etc. Mike Kane and Lou Smit, .
 

Solace

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IrishMist said:
Why not go to the National Enquirer for facts? They get it right far more often than they get it wrong.
yes they do, they require 3 sources for their publications. They were excellent on the Ramsey case.

I still don't buy the paper. But they were very good on the Ramsey case.
 

cami

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Solace said:
Ned, you really studied this case. I know either you or Rash or NP will find something eventually that will out and out prove it. And I will be there to applaud you. Your posts are great. They are informative and just interesting to read.

Have a great Thanksgiving. I look forward to more posts from you. Really interesting.

Ned, why do you think the Ramseys had to put JonBenet "out of her misery"? I would think with a head injury as she had, she was deeply unconscious and felt nothing..which would have led to coma and death.

I am impressed by your knowledge of this case and your posts are marvelous...I totally enjoy reading them. Solace and Rash's too..I know them both from the MacDonald case and have posted with them for years now..well Rash anyway.
 

Solace

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4sure said:
Still waiting for you to show me where the autopsy mentions that Coroner Meyer thinks that JBR's hymen is enlarged.
4Sure: Meyer says this to Detective Arndt.
 

Solace

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4sure said:
Sorry that is a bogus article. You should never go to the National Enquire for facts on anything yet going to a sceond hand source to prove a point. It looks bad.
It is not a bogus article. Patsy Ramsey herself granted the National Enquirer an interview and I have seen her speak of this on Larry King. It is not bogus. She did not like them but wanted to give them. She was trying to rehabilitate herself. Didn't do such a good job though.
 

Solace

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4sure said:
Still waiting for you to show me where the autopsy mentions that Coroner Meyer thinks that JBR's hymen is enlarged.
The hymen itself is represented by a rim of mucosal tissue extending clockwise between the 2 and 10:00 positions. The area of abrasion is present at approximately the 7:00 position and appears to involve the hymen and distal right lateral vaginal wall and possibly the area anterior to the hymen.

She probably got that from bike riding or maybe a pony ride. :cool:
 

UKGuy

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4sure said:
Still waiting for you to show me where the autopsy mentions that Coroner Meyer thinks that JBR's hymen is enlarged.


4sure,

Source:January 30, 1997 Search Warrant
Det. Arndt told Your Affiant that she personally observed Dr. John Meyer examine the vaginal and pubic areas of the deceased, Dr. Meyer stated that he observed numerous traces of a dark fiber.

Detective Arndt told Your Affiant that she witnessed the autopsy of JonBenet Ramsey which was conducted by Dr. John Meyer on December 26, 1996. Detective Arndt told Your Affiant that she observed Dr. Meyer examine the vaginal area of the victim and heard him state that the victim had received an injury consistent with digital penetration of her vagina. Detective Arndt told Your Affiant that Dr. Meyer told her that is was his opinion that the victim had been subjected to sexual contact.

http://www.acandyrose.com/01301997warrant.htm


Also:

Dr. Cyril Wecht, a well known forensic pathologist, has no doubt that the 45-pound child was molested. "If she had been taken to a hospital emergency room, and doctors had seen the genital evidence, the father would have been arrested," he has said. The vaginal opening, according to Dr. Robert Kirschner of the University of Chicago's pathology department, was twice the normal size for six-year-olds. "The genital injuries indicate penetration," he says, "but probably not by a penis, and are evidence of molestation that night as well as previous molestation." There were also blood and urine stains on her underpants. A considerable obstacle to investigators, according to one well placed source in the D.A.'s office, was the fact that "the crime scene and the body were cleaned up, although not sterilized." Adding to the mishaps, the coroner didn't examine the body until seven hours after it was discovered, and then spent only 10 minutes at the crime scene.

And was JonBenet encouraged to keep secrets
"Pam Paugh is indignant over the coverage of her niece."They said she went for

French manicures once a week. That is a lie! The night before every pageant - and

I was at every single one of them - we would do what we call the 'pageant scrub,'"

she says."And it was a fun time in the bathroom...Scrub up the knees. Make sure

the nails are cleaned, neat, and trimmed. We washed her hair, and Aunt Pam would

do the little French manicure, and that was that. Patsy and I did her hair. I am a

Chanel makeup artist...and that child wore so little makeup, because she didn't

need it." Paugh concedes that JonBenet's hair was lightened, which Patsy always

denied. The former nanny says JonBenet's hair was a light golden brown which

suddenly turned platinum blond."I said to her,'So who's dying your hair,

JonBenet?' She was all goshed.'You're not supposed to say anything about that.' I said 'O.K., it will be our little secret.'"

Source:http://bardachreports.com/articles/v_19971000.html


.
 

4sure

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UKGuy said:
4sure,


Quote:

Det. Arndt told Your Affiant that she personally observed Dr. John Meyer examine the vaginal and pubic areas of the deceased, Dr. Meyer stated that he observed numerous traces of a dark fiber.

Detective Arndt told Your Affiant that she witnessed the autopsy of JonBenet Ramsey which was conducted by Dr. John Meyer on December 26, 1996. Detective Arndt told Your Affiant that she observed Dr. Meyer examine the vaginal area of the victim and heard him state that the victim had received an injury consistent with digital penetration of her vagina. Detective Arndt told Your Affiant that Dr. Meyer told her that is was his opinion that the victim had been subjected to sexual contact.

.
Theres still nothing here about the autopsy and her vaginal opening being enlarged. The official autopsy mentions nothing about sexual contact or even possible sexual contact.
On the above I have no opinion as of yet except that this is third person Meyer-Arndt-Affiant.



UKGuy said:
Quote:

Dr. Cyril Wecht, a well known forensic pathologist,

.
Oh brother Cyril Wecth! First of all lets all admit that Dr Wecht was paid by the Globe to find evidence of Molestation and he should be in jail for recieving stolen merchandise. (When allowed to view the stolen photos of the atutopsy) What kind of reputal man would accept stolen pictures of a six year olds murder from an autopsy that has not been made public yet? His opinion on JBR's vaginal opening is correct when compared to healthy live pre pubescent girl. Not dead girls. Also the vaginal opening measurement can differ greatly by how the body is positioned. However if one wishes to they may find medical web sites which have pictures of molested young girls. Their hymans are ripped to shreads. JBR's is intact although damaged. The opinion that JBR was penetraed by an object on 12/26/2006 is shared by many. Why would Dr. Wecht accept stolen merchandise and then accept money to give his "expert opinion" on JBR. Well maybe because Dr Wecht is a media *advertiser censored*.

Lets see how many professionals disagree with Dr. Wecht.
Dr. Richard Krugman, a University of Colorado Medical Center professor and child abuse expert ....
"I don't see anything in the autopsy that tells you that this was a sexually abused child, it does tell you that she died of physical abuse, Krugman said.
Dr. Robert Kirschner, a retired deputy chief medical examiner of Cook County, Ill. and a clinical associate in the Departments of Pathology and Pediatrics at the University of Chicago....
so without seeing the autopsy photographs, it's hard to say whether it could be an inaccurate measurement, prior injury or normal anatomic variation."
UKGuy said:
And was JonBenet encouraged to keep secrets
Quote:



." Paugh concedes that JonBenet's hair was lightened,
.



Yea I've said her hair may have been lightened but not dyed and for the pageants not "just because". At least this shows that Patsy felt some shame about lightening her hair and was not brash and unfeeling about it.
 

BBB167893

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You too, please post where the autopsy states the hymen is enlarged unnatrually for a girl of her age. As far as I see it says no such thing, ever.

You asked for it, buster: the autopsy measures the hymen as 1x1 cm, twice the normal size.

Sorry that is a bogus article. You should never go to the National Enquire for facts on anything yet going to a sceond hand source to prove a point. It looks bad.

You should have told HER that! It's legit. She did say it.

The vaginal opening, according to Dr. Robert Kirschner of the University of Chicago's pathology department, was twice the normal size for six-year-olds. "The genital injuries indicate penetration," he says, "but probably not by a penis, and are evidence of molestation that night as well as previous molestation."

"She [Det. Jane Harmer] showed a picture of the vagina of a normal healthy six-year-old girl and contrasted it with a photo of the vagina of JonBenét. Even to the uninformed the visual difference was apparent, and Harmer cited the experts who said there was evidence of "chronic sexual abuse", although the detectives referred to it only as "prior vaginal trauma".

Their hymens are ripped to shreads. JBR's is intact although damaged.

Now you've done it:

In August, the Boulder police department contacted Dr. John McCann, one of the nation’s leading experts on child sexual abuse. McCann had agreed to assist the police department in determining if JonBenet had been a victim of sexual abuse during or before her murder. McCann was sent the autopsy report and photos. According to McCann, examination findings that indicate chronic sexual abuse include the thickness of the rim of the hymen, irregularity of the edge of the hymen, the width or narrowness of the wall of the hymen, and exposure of structures of the vagina normally covered by the hymen. His report stated that there was evidence of prior hymeneal trauma as all of these criteria were seen in the post mortem examination of JonBenet.
There was a three dimensional thickening from inside to outside on the inferior hymeneal rim with a bruise apparent on the external surface of the hymen and a narrowing of the hymeneal rim from the edge of the hymen to where it attaches to the muscular portion of the vaginal openings. At the narrowing area, there appeared to be very little if any hymen present. There was also exposure of the vaginal rugae, a structure of the vagina which is normally covered by an intact hymen. The hymeneal orifice measured one centimeter which is abnormal or unusual for this particular age group and is further evidence of prior sexual abuse with a more recent injury as shown by the bruised area on the inferior hymeneal rim.

Dr. McCann explained the term "chronic abuse" meant only that it was "repeated", but that the number of incidents could not be determined. In the case of JonBenet, the doctor could only say that there was evidence of “prior abuse". The examination results were evidence that there was at least one prior penetration of the vagina through the hymeneal membrane. The change in the hymeneal structure is due to healing from a prior penetration. However, it was not possible to determine the number of incidents nor over what period of time. Because the prior injury had healed, any other incidents of abuse probably were more than 10 days prior.

I'm just gettin' warmed up!
 

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Hehehe, you are such good value Dave, I love your spirit :)
 

JMO8778

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A little bit of makeup?That child didn't need much???I suppose that's why she looked like she was in her 20's (in the face)in the pageants?Not to even mention the overage costumes. :/
 
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