Netflix to stream new documentary on Steven Avery

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Tawny

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I disagree that Avery couldn't get a fair trial anywhere in the vicinity of Manitowoc. Tbh, I think it should have been moved further than Calumet, but the jury did vote not guilty on the Mutilation of a corpse charge and their initial jury pool had votes for not guilty on the murder charge, so when it came down to it, they were willing to consider and deliberate on the charges. I think what would be a better idea would be to cover the case as little as possible in the media until the jury is selected and sequestered- think of how many cases have been worse even than Avery's as far the media is concerned. Casey Anthony was absolutely tried and convicted in the court of public opinion, yet got a fair trial and a not guilty verdict. Even so, her life will never be the same. We've really got to be careful, IMO, about how much we influence the jury pool through the media.


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RBBM

I've thought about this a lot. We are SO fascinated by these cases, we want every details, which means the "news" (I use that term very lightly these days) sources are scrambling to be the first and most exciting so we'll watch THEM and not the other guys.

But you can't just take away media's access because of Freedom of the Press.

I wonder if we could set forth some sort of laws or statutes that states the media can report on the case but can't report names? AND the investigators have to NOT put out evidence and details of the crime, IMO. We learn immediately where bodies were found and in what condition, who suspects are, who is being investigated, who is no longer a POI, etc etc etc. We get really intimate details fed to us via those close to the cases.

Maybe instead of restricting what the media reports, we can charge those close to investigations with obstruction of justice or some sort of violation of due process if they tell the media intimate details of a case?

I don't know but something has to be done because it really mucks up the fair trial thing. JMO!
 

Tawny

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Was Steven Avery "off" and maybe a little bit of a creeper? Likely. I'm sure he DID flash his cousin and harass her. But here's why I don't think he's guilty of THIS crime, at least not how it was sold to the jury.

Stabbed in the stomach and throat slit on the bed. Ummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm where's the blood? There were tons of video and photos of that bed and the walls and the floor and... no blood. Just a random key.

Oh the garage! But the concrete only had Steve's DNA on it. And you're trying to convince me, while looking at photos of the state of that property, that Steven Avery would be capable of sanitizing everything so perfectly as to get every single trace of Teresa's blood off of all those dirty tools and machines? And then... I guess dirty them up again so you don't wonder why they're just so clean... ???

That key? Where are her house keys? She kept her car key alone on a fob by itself? Nah brah, unlikely. Hmmmm who might've had access to Teresa's spare key? I dunno, the person who lives with her?

And why, oh why, would Steven put Teresa in the back of her car and drive her to that burn pile?! WHY? That makes ZERO. SENSE. even for someone with an IQ as low as Steven's.

That bullet. If it went through her HEAD, it would have had more than just one tiny sampling of her DNA on it, I'd think, no?

Theory: It was either the Scott/Bobby duo, or the ex-boyfriend, or the roommate. Kind of leaning toward roommate, tbh. Did we ever even meet that guy?

Regardless, someone followed her, murdered her, threw her in the back of her own car, and burned her somewhere. OR, in the case of Scott/Bobby, maybe they drove her to the burn pile they KNEW Steven was going to light up that night, threw some tires on top of her, knowing Steven wouldn't notice. Thanks for disposing of the body for us, Steven!

It's possible and plausible that the police had NO hand in her actual murder, and saw an opportunity. When Colborn found the car, they could have easily moved it to the property and waited. Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand then maybe they planted the key and the bullet to seal the deal (they had her DNA from her blood in the car by then... there bullets all over that property. Pick one up, swab some DNA on there, done). That key could've been in her console. Again, where are her house keys?! So do I think the cops killed her? Nope, I think they saw an opportunity to put Steven away for good and jumped on it. They obviously never cared about who could've actually done it. They didn't care in 1985, why would they care now?

All JMO! Subject to change :)
 

NirvanaGirl

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I watched these over a 24 hour period & was hooked. Initially after watching them I wavered on the not guilty side, but since I've been doing more reading into the case, I am now firmly in the guilty camp.

I believe that Avery was a man who had little to no impulse control and when he was mad he acted out on it straight away without stopping to think of the consequences.

I have read that when he was arrested for the original rape he had 2 sexual assault charges pending. In my opinion, that is why the police initially looked in his direction. It wasn't completely groundless as the programme wants us to think.

Not all the family were happy to see Steven back once he was exonerated and for a time Steven resided in an ice shanty. Subsequent to his release and during the time he was suing for compensation he was again accused of sexual assault by a teenage relative, he was also arrested for assaulting his girlfriend Jodi.

After his arrest for Teresa Halbachs murder, two women came forward and accused him of rape.

This was not a man who was a stranger to assaulting females.

I do believe that Colborn found the RAV4 while he was searching Avery land illegally and that's when he called in the plates. I think he knew that if he brought the vehicle in that it it would be ruled as inadmissible in any trial since he was on the land without a warrant or permission from the landowners.

I think it's entirely possible that Mike Halbach was steered in the right direction of where to find the vehicle by Colborn in a round about way, hence Mrs Sturm was given the camera etc.

I dont believe that the trailer or the garage were where the murder took place, I think it happened away from there but still on Avery land. My theory for what it is worth is that it's possible Avery used the same tactic on Teresa that he did on his cousin and ran her off the road, pointing a gun at her head. I think they had some kind of altercation in the trailer where Teresa had gone to fill out the bill of sale for the photos. Steven may have come on to her, she rejected him and ran out, leaving the bill of sale unwritten. She got in her car and drove off. Enraged at being rejected, Avery jumped into a truck, followed her, ran her off the road and at some point Teresa may or may not have been raped at knifepoint, Avery cutting his hand during the knife attack, to shut her up she was shot in the head and thrown in the back of her vehicle which was then driven to where it was found at the quarry. The vehicle was crudely hidden and Teresa was left in the vehicle until later that evening when she was removed from the vehicle and taken by golf cart to the burn pits.

I think it's possible Colborn found the bullet fragment in the vehicle when he found that during his illegal search and took the fragment back with him.

The key being on its own without other keys, I don't see as odd. My daughter keeps her car key seperate from her main keyring and I keep my house key on a different keyring to my work keys etc.

I'm not sure what I think about the key being found where it was. I did read that it was found when a detective picked up some novels, began flipping through them & it dropped onto the floor and that does sound feasible to me. Avery may have scrubbed the key in bleach but left his DNA on the key from having sweaty hands. If the key had been hidden in the pages of a book, is it possible that the pages themselves contained DNA from Averys sweaty hands holding them & leafing through them?

I agree that there are others who were living on that 40 acre property who fitted the profile every bit as much as Steven and I do tend to believe that Dassey knew something, how much he was involved I don't know but I do believe he was.

I did feel sympathy for Delores and Allen, but they cannot be so naive that they don't know what their children's characters are. They must be aware of their past crimes and so it's not a stretch to believe that they're just kidding themselves and being parents and loving the child regardless of the crimes.

I know from reading the sub Reddit that various people found Allens comment to one of the film makers in the final episode regarding "I know you like lettuce" as he's munching on it and looking at her, very sweet. It may have been & I hope it was meant in a sweet way, but knowing that the ladies were gay and that 'lettuce' is another euphemism for a ladygarden, I found it a bit distasteful & rude.

I think it's clear that there are generations of interbreeding in that family, Allen & Delores look very much alike, to the point of looking like they could be closely related (cousins maybe) and all the various kids looked alike. I think that gas probably led to the low iq most of the various family members seem to have, although it's a red herring to say they were mentally retarded as I have seen elsewhere on the net. Brendan with a recorded iq of 68 would only be classed at the very high end of mentally inadequate & Steven just as low intelligence.

Anyway, I just wanted to add my opinion & theories and say thanks for the great read! Keep posting & debating so I have more to read :)
 

Hopeful One

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I am a criminal case junkie and have learned over my years at Websleuths that news/media/TV/documentaries can be extremely biased. I know that you truly do need to follow a case VERY closely to get the facts (and by very I mean not getting your sole information from "news"). In general, I am not a conspiracy theorist at all and believe our police officers and government officials have their hearts in the right place.

Having said that, I watched this series and in regards to this case, sumpin' ain't right. The key.... where is the blood if she was killed in such a fashion??... SA must be a clever criminal to get rid of ALL DNA evidence besides his few swipes of blood in her RAV 4....

All sorts of shady. For real.
 

RainCheck

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Was Steven Avery "off" and maybe a little bit of a creeper? Likely. I'm sure he DID flash his cousin and harass her. But here's why I don't think he's guilty of THIS crime, at least not how it was sold to the jury.

Stabbed in the stomach and throat slit on the bed. Ummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm where's the blood? There were tons of video and photos of that bed and the walls and the floor and... no blood. Just a random key.

[I]I don't think, if he is guilty that the crime went down that way or where they claimed it did[/I]

Oh the garage! But the concrete only had Steve's DNA on it. And you're trying to convince me, while looking at photos of the state of that property, that Steven Avery would be capable of sanitizing everything so perfectly as to get every single trace of Teresa's blood off of all those dirty tools and machines? And then... I guess dirty them up again so you don't wonder why they're just so clean... ???

Blood can be contained to a small area. There isnt necessarily blood splattered everywhere during a crime. A blanket or pillow can be used to minamize blood splatter


That key? Where are her house keys? She kept her car key alone on a fob by itself? Nah brah, unlikely. Hmmmm who might've had access to Teresa's spare key? I dunno, the person who lives with her?

[I]I personally only care one car key on a single key ring.[/I]

And why, oh why, would Steven put Teresa in the back of her car and drive her to that burn pile?! WHY? That makes ZERO. SENSE. even for someone with an IQ as low as Steven's.

Because a dead body is heavy or he was concerned about someone seeing him carrying a dead body swung over his shoulder?

That bullet. If it went through her HEAD, it would have had more than just one tiny sampling of her DNA on it, I'd think, no?

The bullet didn't go through her head.

Theory: It was either the Scott/Bobby duo, or the ex-boyfriend, or the roommate. Kind of leaning toward roommate, tbh. Did we ever even meet that guy?

Regardless, someone followed her, murdered her, threw her in the back of her own car, and burned her somewhere. OR, in the case of Scott/Bobby, maybe they drove her to the burn pile they KNEW Steven was going to light up that night, threw some tires on top of her, knowing Steven wouldn't notice. Thanks for disposing of the body for us, Steven!

It's possible and plausible that the police had NO hand in her actual murder, and saw an opportunity. When Colborn found the car, they could have easily moved it to the property and waited. Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand then maybe they planted the key and the bullet to seal the deal (they had her DNA from her blood in the car by then... there bullets all over that property. Pick one up, swab some DNA on there, done). That key could've been in her console. Again, where are her house keys?! So do I think the cops killed her? Nope, I think they saw an opportunity to put Steven away for good and jumped on it. They obviously never cared about who could've actually done it. They didn't care in 1985, why would they care now?

All JMO! Subject to change :)

I'm just playing devils advocate here.
 

TheDuchess

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I watched these over a 24 hour period & was hooked. Initially after watching them I wavered on the not guilty side, but since I've been doing more reading into the case, I am now firmly in the guilty camp.

I believe that Avery was a man who had little to no impulse control and when he was mad he acted out on it straight away without stopping to think of the consequences.

I have read that when he was arrested for the original rape he had 2 sexual assault charges pending. In my opinion, that is why the police initially looked in his direction. It wasn't completely groundless as the programme wants us to think.

Not all the family were happy to see Steven back once he was exonerated and for a time Steven resided in an ice shanty. Subsequent to his release and during the time he was suing for compensation he was again accused of sexual assault by a teenage relative, he was also arrested for assaulting his girlfriend Jodi.

After his arrest for Teresa Halbachs murder, two women came forward and accused him of rape.

This was not a man who was a stranger to assaulting females.

I do believe that Colborn found the RAV4 while he was searching Avery land illegally and that's when he called in the plates. I think he knew that if he brought the vehicle in that it it would be ruled as inadmissible in any trial since he was on the land without a warrant or permission from the landowners.

I think it's entirely possible that Mike Halbach was steered in the right direction of where to find the vehicle by Colborn in a round about way, hence Mrs Sturm was given the camera etc.

I dont believe that the trailer or the garage were where the murder took place, I think it happened away from there but still on Avery land. My theory for what it is worth is that it's possible Avery used the same tactic on Teresa that he did on his cousin and ran her off the road, pointing a gun at her head. I think they had some kind of altercation in the trailer where Teresa had gone to fill out the bill of sale for the photos. Steven may have come on to her, she rejected him and ran out, leaving the bill of sale unwritten. She got in her car and drove off. Enraged at being rejected, Avery jumped into a truck, followed her, ran her off the road and at some point Teresa may or may not have been raped at knifepoint, Avery cutting his hand during the knife attack, to shut her up she was shot in the head and thrown in the back of her vehicle which was then driven to where it was found at the quarry. The vehicle was crudely hidden and Teresa was left in the vehicle until later that evening when she was removed from the vehicle and taken by golf cart to the burn pits.

I think it's possible Colborn found the bullet fragment in the vehicle when he found that during his illegal search and took the fragment back with him.

The key being on its own without other keys, I don't see as odd. My daughter keeps her car key seperate from her main keyring and I keep my house key on a different keyring to my work keys etc.

I'm not sure what I think about the key being found where it was. I did read that it was found when a detective picked up some novels, began flipping through them & it dropped onto the floor and that does sound feasible to me. Avery may have scrubbed the key in bleach but left his DNA on the key from having sweaty hands. If the key had been hidden in the pages of a book, is it possible that the pages themselves contained DNA from Averys sweaty hands holding them & leafing through them?

I agree that there are others who were living on that 40 acre property who fitted the profile every bit as much as Steven and I do tend to believe that Dassey knew something, how much he was involved I don't know but I do believe he was.

I did feel sympathy for Delores and Allen, but they cannot be so naive that they don't know what their children's characters are. They must be aware of their past crimes and so it's not a stretch to believe that they're just kidding themselves and being parents and loving the child regardless of the crimes.

I know from reading the sub Reddit that various people found Allens comment to one of the film makers in the final episode regarding "I know you like lettuce" as he's munching on it and looking at her, very sweet. It may have been & I hope it was meant in a sweet way, but knowing that the ladies were gay and that 'lettuce' is another euphemism for a ladygarden, I found it a bit distasteful & rude.

I think it's clear that there are generations of interbreeding in that family, Allen & Delores look very much alike, to the point of looking like they could be closely related (cousins maybe) and all the various kids looked alike. I think that gas probably led to the low iq most of the various family members seem to have, although it's a red herring to say they were mentally retarded as I have seen elsewhere on the net. Brendan with a recorded iq of 68 would only be classed at the very high end of mentally inadequate & Steven just as low intelligence.

Anyway, I just wanted to add my opinion & theories and say thanks for the great read! Keep posting & debating so I have more to read :)

This is a great analysis and thanks for sharing. I hadn't heard about many of the other sexual assault complaints and if those were known I am surprised they weren't included in the sentencing phase or prosecuted in any way. I'd like to see actual evidence of these other incidents.

It makes sense about searching he land illegally and then sending the family out looking. I don't think the aunt was in on it but it made sense to check those areas rather than jumping into the endless rows of cars.

That said I am convinced that the cops were convinced he was guilty and planted evidence. We can never know the actual truth because had they been satisfied with pursuing the case with what they had they would be better off than getting greedy and going after who I feel is clearly innocent.

Also when I was looking through the TH thread I noted a comment on one of the very first pages that someone stated that they hoped Manitowoc would steer clear of the case to avoid any impropriety.

I do not believe either of these men should be in prison. I feel the fact that so many of these officials took the laws into their own hands in order to get their man caused an innocent boy to be railroaded.




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RainCheck

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I want to preface this by saying I plagiarized many people to put this together. Some of it is from this thread. If I plagiarized you please don't be mad I didn't dire you as a source of the wording and info. I was making quick notes and I read and investigated every where and just couldn't give credit to everyone. Thank you very much for helping me put this together! Okay here's goes, please correct any misinformation you see. I did my best to keep everything straight, but I'm sure it's not perfect.

My thoughts on this case and documentary are that the case was so mishandled and corrupted there should be new trials and a DOJ investigation into the investigation. It doesn't mean I don't think Avery could be guilty, but it means the way the investigation was handled was so corrupt, he should have not been found guilty based on that. It's like the OJ Simpson trial in a way, he might have, probably did to it, but the misconduct of the investigators negated any real evidence for conviction. However, I do think the documentary left out a lot of information they should have addressed and their failing to do so makes me feel they are manipulating the audience. When I watch a documentary I expect all the information to be presented. It seems they left out a lot of information that could have put Avery in a negative light or possibly brought doubt about his innocence. Theory wise, I think someone on the property killed TH. Maybe it was Steven or his brother Chuck who had already been convicted of sexual crimes and who was arrested in 2011 for I believe filming children and adults undressing at a swimming pool. Sorry, I think that's where it was done, but I forgot to write down the exact details. He was arrested for filming people undressing and I think it was at a swimming pool. I think Brendan may have had absolutely nothing to do with the crime before, during or after or at most only helped the of his uncles dispose of the body because he was afraid of them. Regardless, all of his confession are useless and mean nothing except for parts of conversations he had with his mother. I do believe there may have been sexual exploitation of children going on in the family.

Things left out of the documentary or downplayed in the documentary:

1. In the criminal complaint, Brendan's mother noted that brendan had bleach on his pants and that he told her that he was helping clean Avery's garage floor. "On February 27, 2006, your complainant spoke with [Brendan's mother] Barb Janda. Barb Janda stated on October 31, 2005, when Brendan Dassey returned from Steven Avery's residence, Dassey had bleach stains on his jeans. Barb Janda asked Dassey what happened to his jeans, he told her that his jeans were bleached while he was helping Steven Avery clean his garage floor with bleach. On March 1, 2006, Investigator Wiegert recovered the jeans worn by Dassey on October 31, 2005. Investigator Wiegert noted that the jeans contained bleach spots and other stains."

2. Avery bought shackles and handcuffs just weeks before, and his sister was with him. They were found in the burn barrel.

3. Avery used a different name when requesting Halbach for taking photos. He called her phone several times that day using *67 to hide his phone number.

4. Halbach noted she was uncomfortable in going to Avery's place because he has answered the door in only a towel before.

5. In addition to Steven previous convictions, both his brothers Chuck and Earl had been convicted of previous sexual assault which is why the locals felt this way about the family. It was not just based on gossip. Of course, this has no bearing on his guilt in this case, but it explains the overall distrust and dislike of the family.

6. Susan Brandt, who worked an internship as a counselor at Mishicot middle and high schools in early 2006... Brandt said Kayla Avery told her and a Mishicot counselor in January 2006 that 'she was scared because her uncle Steven Avery had asked one of her cousins to help move a body.' The girl didn't specify which of her cousins allegedly helped Avery, Brandt said, and she was scared but not 'confused.'"

7. This earlier interview with Brendan, with a completely different and more plausible scenario was not addressed in the documentary
https://youtu.be/drwb15E_taM

8. Rav 4 battery had been disconnected and Avery's non blood DNA was found on the hood latch.

9. Brendan claims Avery sexual molested him and other children while speaking to his mother.

10. The documentary painted the relationship between Steven and Jodi as a rosy, trouble free relationship. They failed to disclose Avery was arrested for violating a disorderly conduct ordinance after a domestic incident with Jodi. The court ordered him to stay away from the woman for 72 hours and pay a fine of $243.

11. According to a prison informant, Avery drew a torture chamber while in prison and according to statements made by other victims, Avery was violent to other women
According to an Appleton Post Crescent article from March 9, 2006, "While he was in prison, Steven Avery planned the torture and killing of a young woman, new documents released Wednesday indicate. The allegations are included in 22 pages of court documents accompanying additional charges filed by Calumet County Dist. Atty. Ken Kratz. ... Kratz also included in Wednesday's filings statements from prisoners who served time with Avery at Green Bay Correctional Institution. They said Avery talked about and showed them diagrams of a torture chamber he planned to build when he was released."

Furthermore, reported the newspaper, "The filings also include statements from a woman, now 41, who said she was raped by Avery, who told her ‘if she yelled or screamed there was going to be trouble.’ There also is an affidavit from a girl who said she was raped by Avery. ‘The victim's mother indicated that the victim does not want to speak about the sexual assault between her and Steven Avery because Steven Avery told her if she 'told anyone about their activities together he would kill her family,'" the filing said. According to the newspaper article, "The affidavit said Avery admitted to his fiancee that he had sexually assaulted the girl."
 

dexter75

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:ditto:

I think you have put MUCH of this into perspective,

looking at the WHOLE picture with the presumption of " innocent until proven guilty "

Keeping an OPEN & IMPARTIAL mind as well!
:clap:

Was Steven Avery "off" and maybe a little bit of a creeper? Likely. I'm sure he DID flash his cousin and harass her. But here's why I don't think he's guilty of THIS crime, at least not how it was sold to the jury.

Stabbed in the stomach and throat slit on the bed. Ummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm where's the blood? There were tons of video and photos of that bed and the walls and the floor and... no blood. Just a random key.

Oh the garage! But the concrete only had Steve's DNA on it. And you're trying to convince me, while looking at photos of the state of that property, that Steven Avery would be capable of sanitizing everything so perfectly as to get every single trace of Teresa's blood off of all those dirty tools and machines? And then... I guess dirty them up again so you don't wonder why they're just so clean... ???

That key? Where are her house keys? She kept her car key alone on a fob by itself? Nah brah, unlikely. Hmmmm who might've had access to Teresa's spare key? I dunno, the person who lives with her?

And why, oh why, would Steven put Teresa in the back of her car and drive her to that burn pile?! WHY? That makes ZERO. SENSE. even for someone with an IQ as low as Steven's.

That bullet. If it went through her HEAD, it would have had more than just one tiny sampling of her DNA on it, I'd think, no?

Theory: It was either the Scott/Bobby duo, or the ex-boyfriend, or the roommate. Kind of leaning toward roommate, tbh. Did we ever even meet that guy?

Regardless, someone followed her, murdered her, threw her in the back of her own car, and burned her somewhere. OR, in the case of Scott/Bobby, maybe they drove her to the burn pile they KNEW Steven was going to light up that night, threw some tires on top of her, knowing Steven wouldn't notice. Thanks for disposing of the body for us, Steven!

It's possible and plausible that the police had NO hand in her actual murder, and saw an opportunity. When Colborn found the car, they could have easily moved it to the property and waited. Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand then maybe they planted the key and the bullet to seal the deal (they had her DNA from her blood in the car by then... there bullets all over that property. Pick one up, swab some DNA on there, done). That key could've been in her console. Again, where are her house keys?! So do I think the cops killed her? Nope, I think they saw an opportunity to put Steven away for good and jumped on it. They obviously never cared about who could've actually done it. They didn't care in 1985, why would they care now?

All JMO! Subject to change :)
 

Lamima

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I watched these over a 24 hour period & was hooked. Initially after watching them I wavered on the not guilty side, but since I've been doing more reading into the case, I am now firmly in the guilty camp.

I believe that Avery was a man who had little to no impulse control and when he was mad he acted out on it straight away without stopping to think of the consequences.

I have read that when he was arrested for the original rape he had 2 sexual assault charges pending. In my opinion, that is why the police initially looked in his direction. It wasn't completely groundless as the programme wants us to think.

Not all the family were happy to see Steven back once he was exonerated and for a time Steven resided in an ice shanty. Subsequent to his release and during the time he was suing for compensation he was again accused of sexual assault by a teenage relative, he was also arrested for assaulting his girlfriend Jodi.

After his arrest for Teresa Halbachs murder, two women came forward and accused him of rape.

This was not a man who was a stranger to assaulting females.

I do believe that Colborn found the RAV4 while he was searching Avery land illegally and that's when he called in the plates. I think he knew that if he brought the vehicle in that it it would be ruled as inadmissible in any trial since he was on the land without a warrant or permission from the landowners.

I think it's entirely possible that Mike Halbach was steered in the right direction of where to find the vehicle by Colborn in a round about way, hence Mrs Sturm was given the camera etc.

I dont believe that the trailer or the garage were where the murder took place, I think it happened away from there but still on Avery land. My theory for what it is worth is that it's possible Avery used the same tactic on Teresa that he did on his cousin and ran her off the road, pointing a gun at her head. I think they had some kind of altercation in the trailer where Teresa had gone to fill out the bill of sale for the photos. Steven may have come on to her, she rejected him and ran out, leaving the bill of sale unwritten. She got in her car and drove off. Enraged at being rejected, Avery jumped into a truck, followed her, ran her off the road and at some point Teresa may or may not have been raped at knifepoint, Avery cutting his hand during the knife attack, to shut her up she was shot in the head and thrown in the back of her vehicle which was then driven to where it was found at the quarry. The vehicle was crudely hidden and Teresa was left in the vehicle until later that evening when she was removed from the vehicle and taken by golf cart to the burn pits.

I think it's possible Colborn found the bullet fragment in the vehicle when he found that during his illegal search and took the fragment back with him.

The key being on its own without other keys, I don't see as odd. My daughter keeps her car key seperate from her main keyring and I keep my house key on a different keyring to my work keys etc.

I'm not sure what I think about the key being found where it was. I did read that it was found when a detective picked up some novels, began flipping through them & it dropped onto the floor and that does sound feasible to me. Avery may have scrubbed the key in bleach but left his DNA on the key from having sweaty hands. If the key had been hidden in the pages of a book, is it possible that the pages themselves contained DNA from Averys sweaty hands holding them & leafing through them?

I agree that there are others who were living on that 40 acre property who fitted the profile every bit as much as Steven and I do tend to believe that Dassey knew something, how much he was involved I don't know but I do believe he was.

I did feel sympathy for Delores and Allen, but they cannot be so naive that they don't know what their children's characters are. They must be aware of their past crimes and so it's not a stretch to believe that they're just kidding themselves and being parents and loving the child regardless of the crimes.

I know from reading the sub Reddit that various people found Allens comment to one of the film makers in the final episode regarding "I know you like lettuce" as he's munching on it and looking at her, very sweet. It may have been & I hope it was meant in a sweet way, but knowing that the ladies were gay and that 'lettuce' is another euphemism for a ladygarden, I found it a bit distasteful & rude.

I think it's clear that there are generations of interbreeding in that family, Allen & Delores look very much alike, to the point of looking like they could be closely related (cousins maybe) and all the various kids looked alike. I think that gas probably led to the low iq most of the various family members seem to have, although it's a red herring to say they were mentally retarded as I have seen elsewhere on the net. Brendan with a recorded iq of 68 would only be classed at the very high end of mentally inadequate & Steven just as low intelligence.

Anyway, I just wanted to add my opinion & theories and say thanks for the great read! Keep posting & debating so I have more to read :)

Great post and I am thinking along the same lines. I found it interesting that the girlfriend, Jodi, up and disappeared from the show. She was such a supporter and then, poof, she was gone. Also, I think Steven used poor Brendan to help his case. Brendan would have been better off completely working with LE and taking a plea. But the family was harassing him and his mother to not talk (they sacrificed Brendan for the deadbeat elder, Steven...nice folks, right?). I think his confession wasn't a confession but him just saying yup to whatever LE asked. I don't think Theresa was killed in the bed or garage...but LE pulled that out of the false confession and hurt their case. I think your story, Nirvanagirl, is very plausible.
 

dexter75

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I'm a bit confused over some of these statements.
Are these all known to be fact?
I want to preface this by saying I plagiarized many people to put this together. Some of it is from this thread. If I plagiarized you please don't be mad I didn't dire you as a source of the wording and info. I was making quick notes and I read and investigated every where and just couldn't give credit to everyone. Thank you very much for helping me put this together! Okay here's goes, please correct any misinformation you see. I did my best to keep everything straight, but I'm sure it's not perfect.

My thoughts on this case and documentary are that the case was so mishandled and corrupted there should be new trials and a DOJ investigation into the investigation. It doesn't mean I don't think Avery could be guilty, but it means the way the investigation was handled was so corrupt, he should have not been found guilty based on that. It's like the OJ Simpson trial in a way, he might have, probably did to it, but the misconduct of the investigators negated any real evidence for conviction. However, I do think the documentary left out a lot of information they should have addressed and their failing to do so makes me feel they are manipulating the audience. When I watch a documentary I expect all the information to be presented. It seems they left out a lot of information that could have put Avery in a negative light or possibly brought doubt about his innocence. Theory wise, I think someone on the property killed TH. Maybe it was Steven or his brother Chuck who had already been convicted of sexual crimes and who was arrested in 2011 for I believe filming children and adults undressing at a swimming pool. Sorry, I think that's where it was done, but I forgot to write down the exact details. He was arrested for filming people undressing and I think it was at a swimming pool. I think Brendan may have had absolutely nothing to do with the crime before, during or after or at most only helped the of his uncles dispose of the body because he was afraid of them. Regardless, all of his confession are useless and mean nothing except for parts of conversations he had with his mother. I do believe there may have been sexual exploitation of children going on in the family.

Things left out of the documentary or downplayed in the documentary:

1. In the criminal complaint, Brendan's mother noted that brendan had bleach on his pants and that he told her that he was helping clean Avery's garage floor. "On February 27, 2006, your complainant spoke with [Brendan's mother] Barb Janda. Barb Janda stated on October 31, 2005, when Brendan Dassey returned from Steven Avery's residence, Dassey had bleach stains on his jeans. Barb Janda asked Dassey what happened to his jeans, he told her that his jeans were bleached while he was helping Steven Avery clean his garage floor with bleach. On March 1, 2006, Investigator Wiegert recovered the jeans worn by Dassey on October 31, 2005. Investigator Wiegert noted that the jeans contained bleach spots and other stains."

2. Avery bought shackles and handcuffs just weeks before, and his sister was with him. They were found in the burn barrel.

3. Avery used a different name when requesting Halbach for taking photos. He called her phone several times that day using *67 to hide his phone number.

4. Halbach noted she was uncomfortable in going to Avery's place because he has answered the door in only a towel before.

5. In addition to Steven previous convictions, both his brothers Chuck and Earl had been convicted of previous sexual assault which is why the locals felt this way about the family. It was not just based on gossip. Of course, this has no bearing on his guilt in this case, but it explains the overall distrust and dislike of the family.

6. Susan Brandt, who worked an internship as a counselor at Mishicot middle and high schools in early 2006... Brandt said Kayla Avery told her and a Mishicot counselor in January 2006 that 'she was scared because her uncle Steven Avery had asked one of her cousins to help move a body.' The girl didn't specify which of her cousins allegedly helped Avery, Brandt said, and she was scared but not 'confused.'"

7. This earlier interview with Brendan, with a completely different and more plausible scenario was not addressed in the documentary
https://youtu.be/drwb15E_taM

8. Rav 4 battery had been disconnected and Avery's non blood DNA was found on the hood latch.

9. Brendan claims Avery sexual molested him and other children while speaking to his mother.

10. The documentary painted the relationship between Steven and Jodi as a rosy, trouble free relationship. They failed to disclose Avery was arrested for violating a disorderly conduct ordinance after a domestic incident with Jodi. The court ordered him to stay away from the woman for 72 hours and pay a fine of $243.

11. According to a prison informant, Avery drew a torture chamber while in prison and according to statements made by other victims, Avery was violent to other women
According to an Appleton Post Crescent article from March 9, 2006, "While he was in prison, Steven Avery planned the torture and killing of a young woman, new documents released Wednesday indicate. The allegations are included in 22 pages of court documents accompanying additional charges filed by Calumet County Dist. Atty. Ken Kratz. ... Kratz also included in Wednesday's filings statements from prisoners who served time with Avery at Green Bay Correctional Institution. They said Avery talked about and showed them diagrams of a torture chamber he planned to build when he was released."

Furthermore, reported the newspaper, "The filings also include statements from a woman, now 41, who said she was raped by Avery, who told her ‘if she yelled or screamed there was going to be trouble.’ There also is an affidavit from a girl who said she was raped by Avery. ‘The victim's mother indicated that the victim does not want to speak about the sexual assault between her and Steven Avery because Steven Avery told her if she 'told anyone about their activities together he would kill her family,'" the filing said. According to the newspaper article, "The affidavit said Avery admitted to his fiancee that he had sexually assaulted the girl."
 

RainCheck

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I'm a bit confused over some of these statements.
Are these all known to be fact?

Which ones in particular? As far as I know it's all information taken from criminal complaints or other documents filed with the court and transcripts of recorded conversations Brendan had with his mother.
 

dexter75

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I think so too, when looking at the story from all sides.
ONE issue I have though, is Brendans mom. I can't see her just " taking it " from the family for whatever reason and throwing her son to the wolves?
Great post and I am thinking along the same lines. I found it interesting that the girlfriend, Jodi, up and disappeared from the show. She was such a supporter and then, poof, she was gone. Also, I think Steven used poor Brendan to help his case. Brendan would have been better off completely working with LE and taking a plea. But the family was harassing him and his mother to not talk (they sacrificed Brendan for the deadbeat elder, Steven...nice folks, right?). I think his confession wasn't a confession but him just saying yup to whatever LE asked. I don't think Theresa was killed in the bed or garage...but LE pulled that out of the false confession and hurt their case. I think your story, Nirvanagirl, is very plausible.
 

dexter75

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I was looking closer at 11, but see where it was KRATZ's ALLEGATION's in regards to the prison informant & torture chamber/rape of 41 year old woman/etc.
I also hadn't heard the molestation allegation Brendan had made either.

I do agree, such a cluster**** of a case!! The way it was handled I mean, sigh.
Many suspects, biased documentary, odd family ( whose isn't, right? ) crooked prosecutor ( unethical anyway ) planted evidence, testing by FBI that according to biased documentary either is no longer performed or not accurate or whatever the hell, I can't remember any more.
Too many errors/inconsistencies to list:deepbreaths:

I will say though, I can see this case from both sides. Reading transcripts and court documents does help, a lot.
I do tend to lean toward him being innocent, because there is just too much that wasn't there, imo.

I feel like if he were guilty and really did do it, the cops really had no reason to panic or lie.
They did both.
Just my two pennies
Which ones in particular?
 

NirvanaGirl

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I have seen the question "why plant evidence if he was guilty" a lot on various forums. My best answer to that is that we know from the documentary that at least one person in the legal system there (sorry, I can't remember who it was) still thought Avery had 'got off with the rape'. It was referenced in the documentary & the interviewer said, "what do you mean, got off with, he was exonerated" obviously I'm paraphrasing, but that was the general tone. He believed Avery had got away with rape & the dna was planted in the original case. I think if one thought it, it's not a giant leap to think that others may have done too.

I think they suspected Avery of doing something to Teresa because of that and his prior offences that weren't mentioned, Colborn went to search the Avery land & found her jeep & called in to check the plates, it was unlocked & he saw the blood & retrieved the bullet fragment.

They at that point realised that something pretty bad had happened & when they initially searched Stevens trailer & garage they were frustrated by the lack of evidence. If the searched places weren't where the crime took place & I don't believe they were at all, then that explains the lack of evidence tying Steven to the crime. They needed more or they thought he'd 'get off again'. There was probably an element of wanting to get a violent off the streets too.

Don't forget that the bullet fragment wasn't found until a long time after & the garage had already been searched several times by then. Indeed, the fragment may not have even been planted, it could have been tracked into the garage in a tyre tread, shoe tread, golf cart tread. It wasn't a complete bullet, just a fragment of a bullet.
 

NirvanaGirl

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I want to believe Brendan had nothing to do with this & was manipulated by the police & his confession was false, but one thing bugs me.

Brendan recently released a statement in which he claims his innocence and his uncles innocence. He has a far better chance of being released if he only claims his own & drops Steven in it completely or even simply states that he has no idea if Steven did it but that he (Brendan) is innocent of any involvement. The fact that he's claiming they are both completely innocent troubles me. It's not like Avery could contradict him if he said it was all Avery & not him, not without dropping himself in it further.

If Brendan IS innocent of ALL involvement then I would absolutely expect him to proclaim his innocence, but there IS evidence implicating Avery so it diminishes Dasseys assertations of his own innocence imo

I hope this makes sense, I know what I'm trying to say but I'm not sure if I'm explaining myself properly.
 

RainCheck

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I was looking closer at 11, but see where it was KRATZ's ALLEGATION's in regards to the prison informant & torture chamber/rape of 41 year old woman/etc.
I also hadn't heard the molestation allegation Brendan had made either.

I do agree, such a cluster**** of a case!! The way it was handled I mean, sigh.
Many suspects, biased documentary, odd family ( whose isn't, right? ) crooked prosecutor ( unethical anyway ) planted evidence, testing by FBI that according to biased documentary either is no longer performed or not accurate or whatever the hell, I can't remember any more.
Too many errors/inconsistencies to list:deepbreaths:

I will say though, I can see this case from both sides. Reading transcripts and court documents does help, a lot.
I do tend to lean toward him being innocent, because there is just too much that wasn't there, imo.

I feel like if he were guilty and really did do it, the cops really had no reason to panic or lie.
They did both.
Just my two pennies

The molestation accusation came start from Brendan during a recorded conversation with his mother. The two alleged rape victims made statements and so did the prison informant so it not just Kratz literally making things up as he goes with no documentation. The journalist who wrote the article read a 20 page plus court document before writing the article. At least I hope it was read and not just cited without reading it.
 

RainCheck

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I want to believe Brendan had nothing to do with this & was manipulated by the police & his confession was false, but one thing bugs me.

Brendan recently released a statement in which he claims his innocence and his uncles innocence. He has a far better chance of being released if he only claims his own & drops Steven in it completely or even simply states that he has no idea if Steven did it but that he (Brendan) is innocent of any involvement. The fact that he's claiming they are both completely innocent troubles me. It's not like Avery could contradict him if he said it was all Avery & not him, not without dropping himself in it further.

If Brendan IS innocent of ALL involvement then I would absolutely expect him to proclaim his innocence, but there IS evidence implicating Avery so it diminishes Dasseys assertations of his own innocence imo

I hope this makes sense, I know what I'm trying to say but I'm not sure if I'm explaining myself properly.

I understand what you're saying. Brendan only knows his own truth, not what his uncle may or may not have done in the time period he wasn't with them. However, they weren't tried together the first time and if retrials happen they'll be separate too. I don't think Brendan choosing to believe is uncle is innocent is hurting his own case.
 

NirvanaGirl

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I understand what you're saying. Brendan only knows his own truth, not what his uncle may or may not have done in the time period he wasn't with them. However, they weren't tried together the first time and if retrials happen they'll be separate too. I don't think Brendan choosing to believe is uncle is innocent is hurting his own case.

I'm not so sure that Brendan does believe his uncle is innocent though.

I think there was probably a shred of truth somewhere in Brendan's interviews. I think if someone had the time to read the transcripts from all his interviews and find the consistent responses then we will have the truth of his involvement, or indeed non involvement. The truth tends to be the only thing that stays the same across multiple interviews (just as with Jessie Miskelley in the West Memphis child murders)

I'm struggling with Brendan, I'm convinced of Averys guilt now but I'm still on the fence with Brendan & want desperately to believe he wasn't involved but the doubt in his complete innocence remains.

One thing I am 100% certain of is that he was railroaded. I'm not going to go as far as to say that he wouldn't be in prison if not for Avery as I don't think he stood much of a chance anyway at leading a good law abiding life, but I do think he was railroaded into confessing what various scenarios he did.

Two things about the interviews stick in my head, the whole "what happened to her head" where it was clear that he hadn't got a clue what it was they wanted him to say, and him asking if he would be back at school in time for 6th period so he could hand a project in, when he'd just confessed to rape & helping a murderer.
 
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