Found Deceased NEW ZEALAND - Grace Millane, 22, British backpacker, Auckland, 1 Dec 2018 *Arrest* #2

[Sooty]

Even if Grace enjoyed bondage and rough sex, the evidence from her previous partner confirmed that she had full control during the experience. It would appear she was deprived of this during the encounter with the accused. She was deprived of this, according to at least two medical experts, not for seconds, but for minutes. And that led to her death. As it inevitably would. By nature of the cause of death, the accused was in physical touch with her body the entire time she was dying. This fits the criteria for murder IMO.

He then removes himself from her dead body which is now on the floor - face up and bleeding, to shower where he falls asleep and doesn’t check on her when he emerges later ..... seriously ....

 

[Ched]

Hated seeing the headlines today

 

[mrjitty]

But maybe the other testimony from the woman he almost throttled earlier is important here. She, as far as I can remember, did not have a particular interest in BDSM yet according to her statement she still felt scared for her life?

Exactly.

 

[mrjitty]

Even if Grace enjoyed bondage and rough sex, the evidence from her previous partner confirmed that she had full control during the experience. It would appear she was deprived of this during the encounter with the accused. She was deprived of this, according to at least two medical experts, not for seconds, but for minutes. And that led to her death. As it inevitably would. By nature of the cause of death, the accused was in physical touch with her body the entire time she was dying. This fits the criteria for murder IMO.

He then removes himself from her dead body which is now on the floor - face up and bleeding, to shower where he falls asleep and doesn’t check on her when he emerges later ..... seriously ....

And somehow is watching *advertiser censored* on his phone without noticing a dead body LOL

 

[mrjitty]

Unfortunately, i agree. I have followed this case since the beginning, and most of what has been in court was already out there, so i was so so certain this guy was a complete psychopath who was guilty as sin of murder of sweet Grace. Unfortunately the facts that have come out today really have made me question what I thought I knew....

If he is found not guilty of murder is it a given he is guilty of manslaughter? Or before trial was it the prosecution could either try for one or the other? Can new charged be added for disposal of the body, hiding evidence, lying in original interviews etc?

Under NZ law he can be found guilty of manslaughter even when it wasn't charged. It's an inevitable minimum finding as he has admitted to choking Grace to death which is clearly an unlawful act.

All this stuff will be covered in the Judges summing up.

 

[All & Forward]

Grace did nothing wrong. A lot of out of touch people on this forum 'judging her.'

Also she didn't look up, she was on her phone. It isn't that awkward meeting tinder dates, either. You treat them like an old friend. 'Hey! How are you? How'd you get here? Oh really, because my train was so packed.' He went to back out. He has never ever shown a slither of a humorous personality... his MO is being the successful, rich guy. Not the funny, charismatic raconteur. He went to back out. Him seeing a girl and thinking he's better than her fits his profile way more.

 

[Edinlass]

Grace did nothing wrong. A lot of out of touch people on this forum 'judging her.'

Also she didn't look up, she was on her phone. It isn't that awkward meeting tinder dates, either. You treat them like an old friend. 'Hey! How are you? How'd you get here? Oh really, because my train was so packed.' He went to back out. He has never ever shown a slither of a humorous personality... his MO is being the successful, rich guy. Not the funny, charismatic raconteur. He went to back out. Him seeing a girl and thinking he's better than her fits his profile way more.

Not sure I’ve seen anyone on this forum victim judging ...

 

[DanceCard]

A lot of out of touch people on this forum 'judging her.'

Really?
I must have missed those posts.

 

[Edinlass]

DSM

 

[DanceCard]

Not sure I’ve seen anyone on this forum victim judging ...

Jinx, Edinlass!

 

[asyousay]

Grace did nothing wrong. A lot of out of touch people on this forum 'judging her.'

Also she didn't look up, she was on her phone. It isn't that awkward meeting tinder dates, either. You treat them like an old friend. 'Hey! How are you? How'd you get here? Oh really, because my train was so packed.' He went to back out. He has never ever shown a slither of a humorous personality... his MO is being the successful, rich guy. Not the funny, charismatic raconteur. He went to back out. Him seeing a girl and thinking he's better than her fits his profile way more.

As I said though it’s easy to judge here which doesn’t make it right by any stretch . I am not old and early 30’s and I can not fathom meeting a complete stranger and putting my trust in them to strangle me during sex within hours of meeting this stranger . I am positive I am not alone in thinking this either. She took one hell of a risk with her life and unfortunately she paid the ultimate price.

I hope he is found guilty as to me he comes across that way but I’m wondering how much more dirt they will dig up. She put her trust in a complete stranger who took advantage of her. It’s her parents that I feel for as this entire situation is horrendous for them and her family. Their daughters sexual life has been laid bare for the world to see and people are naturally going to judge which I’m betting is is the aim here. It’s just mud slinging and he is hoping something will stick.

fingers crossed it doesn’t.

 

[Edinlass]

I believe it makes no odds what her sexual preferences were, he is clearly also into this foreplay due to the 2 previous sexual encounters he had. Just remember it’s not tinder date after tinder date of Graces coming forward, only her long term ex-boyfriend to discuss their sexual past. I think she wrongly trusted this creep as he had all the right words to say. All the defence are doing for me at least is enlightening me to the fact that this sort of foreplay is extremely common nowadays, I never knew that, and there is nothing wrong with it either.

He went too far and he will pay, meanwhile Grace paid with her life.

 

[mrjitty]

IMO the boyfriend evidence counts against the defence

It proves Grace knew how to be safe. But just like the attack on the other woman, the accused commenced a violence assault.

I also place far more importance on events following the murder as these are always a much better insight into intention that what the accused says later.

Far from sleeping, he was excited by the murder, watching *advertiser censored* to celebrate and taking trophy photos. He then went out on another date with a body in his room. That is not a person in shock

Be interested if they try to call the boyfriend as an actual witness.

 

[Sooty]

IMO the boyfriend evidence counts against the defence

It proves Grace knew how to be safe. But just like the attack on the other woman, the accused commenced a violence assault.

I also place far more importance on events following the murder as these are always a much better insight into intention that what the accused says later.

Far from sleeping, he was excited by the murder, watching *advertiser censored* to celebrate and taking trophy photos. He then went out on another date with a body in his room. That is not a person in shock

Be interested if they try to call the boyfriend as an actual witness.

totally agree with you Mr Jitty

Further - The assault lasted MINUTES - he never checked she was ok - he would have had blood on him as he was physically connected to her body throughout

 

[Marulinka]

They are following New Zealand law and customs around protecting privacy of individuals. The DM doesn't give a dmn about anyone's privacy.

Yes that dounds like the good old DM. That being said im upset abt whats going on at the court atm. IMO the accused used opportunity to act out his twisted fantasies that night and to cross boundaries ge was clearly more and more ready to cross (e.g. previous date who had to fake being unvonscious to get him to stop strangling etc.)

 

[Marulinka]

I think there is every chance she engaged in consensual choking with him. I am certain he then took it too far to live out a sick fantasy. Whilst he had not planned this, he took the opportunity, and I keep coming back to the fact he would have had to strangle her for minutes.

I can see how they should convict of murder, absolutely. The question that the jury might get stuck on is whether, in his intoxicated state, he was able to reasonably expect that he could kill her.

Also, I hate how the defense keeps saying he panicked. His actions were methodical and the opposite of panic in my opinion.

Well said.

 

[PrimeSuspect]

I am probably missing something here, but where in the defence is the obvious potential for passing out in the shower? I’m curious because in my experience one would tend to crash out after drinking followed by a night of consensual passion/ intimacy TOGETHER. This would have appeared to have been his preference certainly during his previous encounter with his previous date, he was anxious that she should stay with him, according to her testimony.
Like I say I am probably missing something .... but it’s just a bit of a convenient, and odd thing??

IMO

I don't buy the passing out in the shower either. He wanted to put distance between him and Grace's body because he didn't call 111 immediately he discovered she was dead, it's a studio apartment so that left the bathroom/shower. Phfft!
I agree with you about the neediness of this guy too, the tinder witness gave a good description of this weirdo, he's violent and controlling, cries at the drop of hat if accused of bad behaviour and is anxious the date doesn't leave without his sayso. jmo

 

[GimmeAclueBlue]

Im 34 and into this kind of thing, i never did anything with my ex but when i met my new partner we got a bit into bdsm. Holding of the throat is no where near to hurting someone its just done to heighten pleasure! You would never get to the point of killing someone in my experience its nothing like that. Tap outs are common but i dont recall ever having to do that.

I know a few ppl the same and all of them its a light hold no where near enough to kill u its just absurd to say otherwise.
His *advertiser censored* addiction is big and clearly an issue he makes me sick paving the way for woman to be killed with such ease

 

[PrimeSuspect]

IMO the boyfriend evidence counts against the defence

It proves Grace knew how to be safe. But just like the attack on the other woman, the accused commenced a violence assault.

I also place far more importance on events following the murder as these are always a much better insight into intention that what the accused says later.

Far from sleeping, he was excited by the murder, watching *advertiser censored* to celebrate and taking trophy photos. He then went out on another date with a body in his room. That is not a person in shock

Be interested if they try to call the boyfriend as an actual witness.

I'm glad you're confident he'll be found guilty of murder, I'm a little worried but read other cases similar to this and all were found guilty. This guy is a bad egg, can't be trusted with women, hates them for some reason, and started on the road to serial killer type behaviour. If this were years ago, he would've gotten away with it.

Why no previous girlfriends/partner to vouch for him? Did he leave Australia voluntarily? Many questions hopefully will be answered once the trial is over.

 

[Mariposa]

IMO the boyfriend evidence counts against the defence

It proves Grace knew how to be safe. But just like the attack on the other woman, the accused commenced a violence assault.

I also place far more importance on events following the murder as these are always a much better insight into intention that what the accused says later.

Far from sleeping, he was excited by the murder, watching *advertiser censored* to celebrate and taking trophy photos. He then went out on another date with a body in his room. That is not a person in shock

Be interested if they try to call the boyfriend as an actual witness.

Well said, I agree the boyfriend evidence was not particularly good for the defense. I am more worried about the defense forensic pathologist. But I have a lot of faith in the prosecutors now at the end of the case and summing up because I think they've done an excellent job so far.

Disingenuous for the defense to say pay no attention to what the defendant did afterwards. His actions afterwards shed much light on his state of mind and came across as the opposite of panic. Thanks to all the CCTV footage it appears he was quite chipper and methodical during it all. Also his taking pictures of her body is not the act of someone disgusted by himself -rather the opposite.