Found Deceased NEW ZEALAND - Grace Millane, 22, British backpacker, Auckland, 1 Dec 2018 *Arrest* #2

Discussion in 'Trials' started by cybervampira, Dec 4, 2018.

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  1. Tortoise

    Tortoise Well-Known Member

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    IMO, all of this about Grace is a distraction and nothing more. It wouldn't matter (to my way of thinking) if she had a one night stand every night of her trip with different men asking each of them to choke her. She could even have asked this defendant to choke her to death, and it would be irrelevant. Mud on the wall. It's his hands that did it, not her own. They are basically saying he's not responsible for what he did but not explaining why.

    There is a point at which consent ends (if it was ever given, which there is no evidence of) and I would suggest, with her arms pinned down and her air supply cut off, that must be the point, if not before. The point beyond having capacity to consent and no longer participating in the act. The point beyond which death ensued, minutes later, because of his sustained grip on her. Just count to 90 or 240, or more, and see how long that is. I do not believe he didn't know Grace could not breathe and was no longer participating.
     


  2. Sooty

    Sooty Well-Known Member

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    Well said Tortoise - there is no defence to mitigate his responsibility for her death
     
  3. All & Forward

    All & Forward Active Member

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    With maybe 5-10 partners, two being serious girlfriends, I'd say probably seven or eight seconds and then you release. A minute would be pretty bold unless it was super light holding, which kind of beside the point.
     
  4. Hjp

    Hjp Well-Known Member

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    Absolutely. Thinking of number one see, only no 1, and keeping his freedom.

    Had the police not uncovered this man's 'dirty-work' in quicktime, I have no doubt that Grace would still remain listed as a missing person, with no closure and no proper place of rest. Happy to deny all concerned to get away with it and stay quiet with Grace decaying out in the bush.

    He obviously doesn't care an iota and never has. If it is to be manslaughter, then it must be to the greatest extent possible in accordance with NZ law:- and no early parole.

    Had he called the authorities to the scene straight away, he would have still got manslaughter but a lighter sentence.
    He knew that well, so decided to go all out for the escape!.

    In jail, he will have plenty of time to ponder over his bad decision-making and will have to come to terms with the extra time it will surely land him with.

    When he is released, I hope he will be denied a fresh identity. He doesn't deserve one by the way Grace's body was ditched like trash in landfill.

    With his picture, name and crime out for all to see at the end of this trial. His release will still mean he will be rendered undateable.
     
  5. angelina1

    angelina1 Member

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    Are we sure she had a fetish?
     
  6. sunnynz

    sunnynz Well-Known Member

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    She was on fetlife which would indicate she probably did
     
  7. CrazyLilBlondie

    CrazyLilBlondie Well-Known Member

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    What do you mean?
     
  8. sunnynz

    sunnynz Well-Known Member

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    Yes people are judging her but I think it’s important that they can say that freely here for two reasons:
    1- the comments here have been people openly saying they felt judgment about her sexual tastes when they learned of them - but at the same time saying they don’t blame her death on those tastes. Every single person brings prejudice to the table, there’s no way to escape it, it’s imprinted in to you. The important thing is to recognise and own your judgments. Which is what posters here have been doing IMO.
    2- the reactions people on here felt are probably similar to the reactions felt by some members of the jury. Let’s not put our heads in the sand about this - the new info about grace may (unfortunately) help this guy get off.

    Please don’t take it personally, I think it’s important we can discuss things openly here as long as we stay respectful of each other. Your input in this topic has been so helpful!
     
  9. Lass from Yorkshire

    Lass from Yorkshire Well-Known Member

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    I still think he will he found guilty of murder
     
  10. LucyRocket

    LucyRocket Well-Known Member

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    For me, it would be a very short time that it would feel erotic, and then it would become uncomfortable. But my partner never did it for long enough for it to become uncomfortable except for once, maybe twice. It was obvious I wasn't enjoying it any more. Just put my hand on his wrist and said 'stop'
     
  11. Satchie

    Satchie Well-Known Member

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    From my point of view it's all about the evidence, which is the only rational basis for determining guilt or innocence. Otherwise we're left making important decisions about sending someone to jail based on things like personal prejudice.

    In plenty of cases, men get drunk together and a fight breaks out. If no one is killed, they just forget about it, no one goes to police and files for assault, they just nurse their black eye, and maybe wise up about avoiding someone or about getting into drunken brawls. If someone is killed in the fight, sometimes the killer is convicted of murder, sometimes not, it depends on the specific circumstances. If the killer is acquitted of murder, it doesn't mean that the victim intended to die, or deserved to die. It's just recognized that the case can't be proven to fit into the legal definition of murder, because drunkeness and male on male aggression are accepted as very common and even normal in our society, and sometimes goes too far.

    I know that in some situations, if a man kills a woman it's seen as automatically murder, because the women were passive, helpless and dependent on the man to protect them. But IMO, women aren't necessarily like that anymore, they're moving into their own personhood, which is a good thing. But I think it means they can't always be seen, legally, as child-like and dependent on the kindness of strangers.

    There have been situations that were reversed, where a dominant woman killed a passive man during sex, and hid his body.
    Dominatrix acquitted of manslaughter - The Boston Globe. Or if gay man kills another during rough sex, he might be a serial killer, or it might have been an accident. You can't prejudge, you have to look at the evidence.

    I don't know what the outcome of this case will be, but I think if women want equality, and to take charge of their own (sex) lives, that means giving up this idea that men must always take care of us, that they are automatically murderers if they don't.
     
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  12. Kubirai

    Kubirai Well-Known Member

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    Millane suspect 'went on date while body in room'

    Remember that he browsed for porn, took photos of dead Grace, waited for rigor mortis, large bags, vultures, disposal area, etc.

    He went on another tinder date, with Grace still in his apartment.
     
  13. Sarahlou

    Sarahlou Well-Known Member

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    An innocent decent guy would be horrified if he accidentally killed a woman during sex, and would not behave like this guy did afterwards IMO.
     
  14. asyousay

    asyousay Well-Known Member

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    Did they meet on Tinder and do you put your sexual preferences on there?

    I don’t know how to word this without coming across as judgemental so I’m trying to word it so it doesn’t.


    It’s quite a specific sexual kink ( I hope that’s the right word) so how would you meet somebody who wanted the same thing on a dating app for example as not everybody is going to want to do something like that?
     
  15. flutterby

    flutterby Active Member

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    RSBM.

    I wonder if this is the reason for the 9am start?

    It allows a witness to appear via video link from the UK without it being too late. I think that's 8pm here (ie 20 minutes)?
     
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  16. jamjim

    jamjim Well-Known Member

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  17. Hjp

    Hjp Well-Known Member

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    The fact that he shown such little regard for her body after the sex and her death, suggests to me something happened in that room that upset or disappointed him with the encounter rather than something that was accidental.

    He would have called an ambulance, no attempt was made to resuscitate her either as far as we know. ... Why not?. If you had just accidentally killed someone who'd try and do everything to save them, even if it was all fruitless.

    Most men after a satisfying sexual climax would not be interested in sex or watching any porn again for quite a while. The fact he went to the porn shortly afterwards suggests to me all was not good with the sex; perhaps he did not climax because he lost it and killed her first and wanted to finish off after the attack?.

    We know he spent his time shortly afterwards researching different ways to offload her body, then to the thorough cleanup operation of the room, transportation to the car, and finally to his next date the following day with no concern.

    Maybe Grace did suggest they do some erotic asphyxiation during the sex, but perhaps he was doing it all wrong or too tight and Grace wanted it to stop and leave the hotel, so he strangled her in anger becouse of the alcohol and the rejection.

    Let's be honest folks that's what happened isn't it. You can't accidentally kill someone during sex for several minutes of strong strangulation unless you were doing it on purpose. You'd have to know after that long.

    She would have been in despair and would have made desperate signals to him to stop, which he was aware and duly ignored.

    He's lying 100%, he's after a shorter sentence.
     
  18. RubyLee87

    RubyLee87 Well-Known Member

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    Tinder is quite basic. You put up photos and a short bio about yourself / what you’re looking for (but that’s optional). If you were looking for a particular ‘kink’, I guess you could talk about that in private messaging when you match with someone.
     
  19. jamjim

    jamjim Well-Known Member

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    "Wednesday will likely mark the final day new evidence is presented in the trial of the man accused of murdering British backpacker Grace Millane as the defence wraps up its case.

    In the home stretch of the Auckland High Court trial, the court will hear from defence witnesses around the world, including an expert in rough sex.

    The evidence is intended to help the jury of seven women and five men determine what happened inside the CityLife hotel between the night of December 1 and morning of December 2, 2018."

    Grace Millane murder trial: Live updates as defence's overseas witnesses stream into court
     
  20. jamjim

    jamjim Well-Known Member

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    9:13am - Court has begun for the day, with Professor Clarissa Smith the first witness called by the defence. She is streaming into the court via audio-visual link from England. Prof Smith works at the University of Sunderland as a professor of sexual cultures. She specialises in areas of explicit media, sexuality, and sexual ethics. The professor has more than 25 years' experience and studies everything from women's studies to pornographic culture.

    Grace Millane murder trial: Live updates as defence's overseas witnesses stream into court
     
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