Found Deceased NEW ZEALAND - Grace Millane, 22, British backpacker, Auckland, 1 Dec 2018 *Arrest* #2

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Sarahlou said:
I understand why the previous date acted like that. I also think it's disgusting how harsh they are treating her. Is it any wonder if women are reluctant to give evidence against assaults if they are made to feel like the one in the wrong?
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I felt so awful for the last witness who burst into tears when she was told she'd have to come back the next day. It's bad enough having to put your life out there for everyone to hear, but having to sit there knowing he's listening to everything you're saying (and probably enjoying it) is terrible.
 
Kikixxxx said:
The woman continued her evidence, telling the court that when the accused did get off her, he asked her: "What was wrong?"
She replied: "What did you mean 'what was wrong?' I couldn't breathe".
She said he replied, saying: "You don't think I did that on purpose do you?"
The woman told the court: "It's just the way he said it: 'You don't think I did that on purpose do you?' It still gives me chills," she said through tears.
The woman found a way to leave shortly afterwards.
In the next conversation the pair had, the woman said she deliberately kept it casual because she was scared of him.
"He knew so much about where I lived, the sports team I played for, my university classes - I didn't want him to just show up," she told the court.
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In the next conversation the pair had

Why would she even be having any kind of conversation with the accused after her earlier ordeal ?

ETA - I hadn't read through all the updates here before I posted this - very distressing for the poor woman and a clear sign of how the defence is going to attack this.
 
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I simply do not accept the idea Grace could have accidentally been killed at all.

It takes a few minutes to asphyxiate after the airpipe has been cut off, and for brain damage to occur once the lack of blood flow in the region causes the brain to start dying.

She would have made desperate "garling" sounds, or any signal she could to have him release her, in the last few minutes before she lost conciousness, and he would had to have known what he was doing was killing her.

Given his history as a compulsive and serial liar I'd have difficulty believing anything that he manages to get to try and prove otherwise.

I still think Grace got in too deep and wanted to stop but things esculated. Given he and she had a fair few to drink:- I think he threw her down in a drunken rage. Strangulation meant no one else in the vacinity would have been able to hear anything.

If he had called emergency services, (even after she had shortly died), his story would warrant some consideration. However, he chose to try and wash his hands of the crime and cover it up, which tells us all he is as guilty as sin.

Anything other than a guilty murder verdict, even at this stage in the trial, would be an international outrage.
 
The poor woman (the third witness) was terrified and continued to stroke his ego for fear he'd come after her if she'd be honest. It's almost like Stockholm syndrome. I completely understand why she continued messaging him. I'm so sorry that she is getting doubted now by the defence. This must be brutal for her. Good she has name suppression at least.
 
sunnynz said:
On the one hand it's so obvious he's guilty - but on the other, they have to prove he did it on purpose which is the tricky thing, especially given there seem to be plenty of people out there who are into that type of sex - the defence will be pushing the fact that it was just normal sex gone wrong. I don't know how much his actions after Grace's death legally count towards murder v manslaughter? His reactions show he felt no remorse but do they show intent before the act?
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His actions after the event show that he was not affected by her death, but do they show they that he intentionally caused it? That is the question the jury will have to answer. He is on trial for murder, not for being a creepy weirdo.
 
DBM

I wrote something very personal here but on second thoughts I've decided I really can't handle it. Sorry!

I will say, please be gentle even with those who might disagree over certain aspects of the case. We don't know each other's experiences.

I'm probably going to take a little break from this one now. Will catch up in a few days.
 
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Re the witness who'd been terrified by 'him' and then continued communication ...

It is definitely difficult to understand why she'd be asking him 'do you want to see me' but it could be that she was testing if he was still interested in her or if not, then she could maybe relax and not fear that he'd be stalking her ... or even that she needed to continue the 'relationship' and for it to be put right so that she could feel like it was just a blip and that she hadn't put herself in so much danger ...

As for the defence questioning ... oh boy! Well isn't it just evident that that man has never had to extricate himself from a situation where another person had the power to rape or kill him! I have, in fact this witness testimony was uncomfortable reading for me ... he has NO possible way to understand what or how you'd act or what you'd say or do to try and get out alive.
 
AllyBeeUK said:
His actions after the event show that he was not affected by her death, but do they show they that he intentionally caused it? That is the question the jury will have to answer. He is on trial for murder, not for being a creepy weirdo.
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As I posted previously, it can be 'intentional' for the purposes of murder whether or not he intended to cause death

It is similar to the classic bar room brawl where you crack someone over the head with a bottle but weren't trying to kill them. That can be murder because you intentionally caused GBH and were reckless
 
sunnynz said:
On the one hand it's so obvious he's guilty - but on the other, they have to prove he did it on purpose which is the tricky thing, especially given there seem to be plenty of people out there who are into that type of sex - the defence will be pushing the fact that it was just normal sex gone wrong. I don't know how much his actions after Grace's death legally count towards murder v manslaughter? His reactions show he felt no remorse but do they show intent before the act?
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In the end we shouldn't fall for the defence smokescreen that this is all complicated.

He intentionally choked the victim until she died, and that is legislated for under the murder definition in the Crimes Act 1961

It would be no different than him holding her head under water until she drowned. Clearly such an act is not an "accident" - it is with intent. Responsibility is on him to stop.

That is even before we get into the question of the blood.
 
mrjitty said:
In the end we shouldn't fall for the defence smokescreen that this is all complicated.

He intentionally choked the victim until she died, and that is legislated for under the murder definition in the Crimes Act 1961

It would be no different than him holding her head under water until she drowned. Clearly such an act is not an "accident" - it is with intent. Responsibility is on him to stop.

That is even before we get into the question of the blood.
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If seminal fluid was present, until he climaxed which may have coincided with her death, this has serious implications, imo. What I've read about erotic asphyxiation, it's a desire of the recipient, therefore, it's the women who ask to be choked or at the very least, agree to it beforehand. Most often males engage in autoerotic asphyixiation where there've been accidental deaths.
If the accused got off on choking or smothering his sexual partners, inevitably it would lead to murder because it's based on HIS sexual gratification not the partners, he won't stop until he's satisfied, there's no 'safe' word discussed earlier because he doesn't need it. JMO
 
AllyBeeUK said:
His actions after the event show that he was not affected by her death, but do they show they that he intentionally caused it? That is the question the jury will have to answer. He is on trial for murder, not for being a creepy weirdo.
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I would say yes. I think the photographs he took, and the manipulation of her lifeless body, show complete disregard for her in every imagineable sense - they give an insight into his mindset as being utterly depraved and excited in her expired life - which shows me he was just as reckless with her life during the act which ended up causing her death. That is defined as murder. I can't comprehend of someone being caring of another's life changing within seconds to excited and behaving so abhorrently.

The bruising also shows for me the pressure under which Grace was restrained, and unable to escape him. It takes a lot to cause deep tissue bleeding.

MOO
 
But time and again the woman told defence barrister Ron Mansfield she had merely been leading the alleged killer on because she was frightened of him turning up at random at places he knew she frequented.

'I was scared of things he could do,' she told the court.

'He wasn't going to go away., He told me about his gang connections and said he had used his gang connections before.'

The woman said during her date with the man at his apartment in an inner city hotel, he had told her he had used a shotgun to scare away his sister's boyfriend and had beaten up people from a bar next to the hotel.

She said she had told the man a stream of lies about her movements and, although she pretended to arrange other dates she had no intention ever seeing him again.

'I was leading him on. I wasn't playing a game but I wasn't going to cut him off cold turkey. I was never going to see him,' she told Mr Mansfield.

'If I wanted to see him, I would have.'

Tinder date of man accused of Grace Millane murder said she feared for her life during sex with him | Daily Mail Online
 
Tortoise said:
I would say yes. I think the photographs he took, and the manipulation of her lifeless body, show complete disregard for her in every imagineable sense - they give an insight into his mindset as being utterly depraved and excited in her expired life - which shows me he was just as reckless with her life during the act which ended up causing her death. That is defined as murder. I can't comprehend of someone being caring of another's life changing within seconds to excited and behaving so abhorrently.

The bruising also shows for me the pressure under which Grace was restrained, and unable to escape him. It takes a lot to cause deep tissue bleeding.

MOO
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I agree, I don't think the defense have a case that it was consensual or an accident. He didn't meet these young women on a S & M site, Grace was very young, he's 26 yrs old and admitted he likes to dominate and control his dates, these young women wouldn't have a clue what they were dealing with. Imo, he's a danger to young women and should spend a long time behind bars, justice for Grace and protection for society. His callousness towards the victim, the concealing of the body and going on another tinder date reveals psychopathic traits. jmo
 
PrimeSuspect said:
If seminal fluid was present, until he climaxed which may have coincided with her death, this has serious implications, imo. What I've read about erotic asphyxiation, it's a desire of the recipient, therefore, it's the women who ask to be choked or at the very least, agree to it beforehand. Most often males engage in autoerotic asphyixiation where there've been accidental deaths.
If the accused got off on choking or smothering his sexual partners, inevitably it would lead to murder because it's based on HIS sexual gratification not the partners, he won't stop until he's satisfied, there's no 'safe' word discussed earlier because he doesn't need it. JMO
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Agreed

The evidence is he was attacking people for his own gratification.
 
Tortoise said:
But time and again the woman told defence barrister Ron Mansfield she had merely been leading the alleged killer on because she was frightened of him turning up at random at places he knew she frequented.

'I was scared of things he could do,' she told the court.

'He wasn't going to go away., He told me about his gang connections and said he had used his gang connections before.'

The woman said during her date with the man at his apartment in an inner city hotel, he had told her he had used a shotgun to scare away his sister's boyfriend and had beaten up people from a bar next to the hotel.

She said she had told the man a stream of lies about her movements and, although she pretended to arrange other dates she had no intention ever seeing him again.

'I was leading him on. I wasn't playing a game but I wasn't going to cut him off cold turkey. I was never going to see him,' she told Mr Mansfield.

'If I wanted to see him, I would have.'

Tinder date of man accused of Grace Millane murder said she feared for her life during sex with him | Daily Mail Online
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One wonders at NZ's shocking incidence of domestic violence, then one reads this line of questioning and isn't surprised.
 
I feel for that third witness. Not victim blaming but I think the truth is she is quite insecure and dare i say it, "desperate" to persue this man despite what happened to on their sexual encounter. I feel she is only affected about the choking incident due to hindsight about what happened to Grace and feels "it could have been me". The 700 odd messages placating him as she was scared just doesn't sit well with me and Mansfield knows how to use this. Maybe Stockholm syndrome but i feel its desperation more than anything, which is so sad for her. I had a horrible sexual encounter with someone on a second date, and after it all i wanted was to erase it, and any trace of him, blocking numbers and erasing from any social media - not begging to meet again! Don't know how it comes across in person to the jury but reading it this witness isn't doing the prosecution any favours.

Still believe he is guilty as sin btw!
 
The thing is the two women corroborate the attack on Grace

It really is irrelevant what else the woman said in texts after the attack. And actually, the murder of Grace proves she was correct in her suspicions
 
mrjitty said:
As I posted previously, it can be 'intentional' for the purposes of murder whether or not he intended to cause death

It is similar to the classic bar room brawl where you crack someone over the head with a bottle but weren't trying to kill them. That can be murder because you intentionally caused GBH and were reckless
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Thank you! so many times in cases I read comments where people misdefine murder or think it requires some sort of prolonged premeditation.
 
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