NH NH - Allenstown, Adult Female, 23-33, & 3 Children, under 11, Nov'85 & May'00 #3

[Alleykins]

No, I'm in the US, I just always referred my own mother as mum or mumsey.

Also, I'm referring to folks who weren't married when they had children. It was a different set of rules for custody between unmarried people and married people. Perhaps I shouldn't assume TPR and the MC's mother weren't married, they might have been, we just don't know it yet. But if they weren't married, custody was fair game, according to what my mum went through to get us back. No one would or could help her because she wasn't married to my father. If this applied to TPR and the MC's mother, technically, the MC wasn't missing, she was with her father, and there was little her mother could about it but take her back. That would have been difficult back then, because he moved across the country and changed his name.

TPR does have an established pattern, but patterns usually have a starting point and then evolve over time. He didn't come right out of the gate as a killer, or he would have started with his family, a possibility that his daughter was well too aware of in the 20/20 video, when she stated it could have been her. He hadn't gotten to that stage yet.
Again, I'm not saying he didn't kill the MC's mother or that she isn't a missing person or a Jane Doe. I'm only keeping an open mind about other possibilities, including the possibility she willingly handed over the MC to TPR and went on with her life. It has, and still does, happen.

 

[Hiraeth_]

Forgive me and I am sure I've known the answer to this at one point but this keeps niggling at me and when I do a search, I can't find a conclusive answer...

How do they know that all 4 people were definitely killed and placed in the barrels at the same time. Is it just circumstantial? Be

If the MC's maternal family knew of her and that TPR was her father, there would have been little the maternal family could have done back then to prevent him from taking her. And technically, she wouldn't have been considered missing if she were with a parent, that parent would have every right to take her. Especially if they weren't married. That's what a lawyer told my mum back in the 70s, that she had just as much right to us as my father did and to just go take us back. So, she did. There was nothing he could have done about it. But the reverse was true. If he decided he wanted us back, he would have had every right to go snatch us back, and there would be nothing she could have done about it. But that wouldn't have made us "missing" just because the other parent didn't have us in their custody.

If the maternal family didn't know the MC existed, it would have been very easy for him to take off with her.

What I was trying to get across with my last post is there are so many possible scenarios as to how the MC came to be with TPR, including legitimately having custody of his daughter. Scenarios that don't involve him murdering her mother or the mother being a missing person or a Jane Doe, but those are still possibilities at this point. We won't know until we discover her and we shouldn't automatically assume she is a missing person.

I was actually referring to the part where you said that mum could be a known murder victim. I'll get better with quoting eventually

 

[Alleykins]

I believe investigators used forensics to determine they were killed and placed in the barrels at the same time, and the circumstances.

 

[ClaireNC]

(snipped for focus)
TPR does have an established pattern, but patterns usually have a starting point and then evolve over time. He didn't come right out of the gate as a killer, or he would have started with his family, a possibility that his daughter was well too aware of in the 20/20 video, when she stated it could have been her. He hadn't gotten to that stage yet.
Again, I'm not saying he didn't kill the MC's mother or that she isn't a missing person or a Jane Doe. I'm only keeping an open mind about other possibilities, including the possibility she willingly handed over the MC to TPR and went on with her life. It has, and still does, happen.

Thanks for your response - I now get what you're saying about children born to non-married parents! This part about the established pattern has been bugging me too. Looking at the timeline of known information, it looks like it started right around the time his first marriage ended and he hooked up with MC's mother.

 

[mghose]

This is Stephanie's father's obit/an article about his life. Do her parents' names match your tree descendant?
A MASTER OF THE FINGERPRINT

Nope, too good to be true :\

 

[Alleykins]

Just had a thought.
Marlyse and Marie appeared with bangs in a few of the photos.
Is there anyone who can do a reconstruction for the MC with straight across bangs, using the most recent recon?

 

[UnlicensedPI]

Is anyone else finding there are not enough generations? For the few lines I've traced so far, this Doe would only be like a 4th great grandchild instead of the expected 5th/6th. That could just be the particular lines I've chosen so far, though.

Side note, one of the descendants of the known intersection (the CLB line) who is currently a child looks EXACTLY like the recon. It's breathtaking. I might have to do some more digging along that line...

 

[mghose]

Is anyone else finding there are not enough generations? For the few lines I've traced so far, this Doe would only be like a 4th great grandchild instead of the expected 5th/6th. That could just be the particular lines I've chosen so far, though.

Side note, one of the descendants of the known intersection (the CLB line) who is currently a child looks EXACTLY like the recon. It's breathtaking. I might have to do some more digging along that line...

I think I found another intersection

 

[Winstigator23]

Stephanie Lee Smith – The Charley Project
I think I found the mom of Jane Doe.

I thought the same thing as first but the age doesn't add up, the Stephanie that is missing is 10+ years older than the Stephanie who is a common descendant of the Livings and Mitchell.

 

[mghose]

I thought the same thing as first but the age doesn't add up, the Stephanie that is missing is 10+ years older than the Stephanie who is a common descendant of the Livings and Mitchell.

Yeah I know

 

[Winstigator23]

Is anyone else finding there are not enough generations? For the few lines I've traced so far, this Doe would only be like a 4th great grandchild instead of the expected 5th/6th. That could just be the particular lines I've chosen so far, though.

Side note, one of the descendants of the known intersection (the CLB line) who is currently a child looks EXACTLY like the recon. It's breathtaking. I might have to do some more digging along that line...

I've been searching the CLB+SL line as well, some of the descendants are visible on FB, but I really didn't appreciate any Asian/Native American/African American mixture in the pictures I've seen so far.

 

[Alleykins]

I've been searching the CLB+SL line as well, some of the descendants are visible on FB, but I really didn't appreciate any Asian/Native American/African American mixture in the pictures I've seen so far.

Rae-Venter’s ongoing work on the case has shown that the unidentified child is primarily caucasian, with a “small amount” of Asian, African and Native American ancestry.

Do you remember this little girl?

 

[Irish_Eyes]

I've been searching the CLB+SL line as well, some of the descendants are visible on FB, but I really didn't appreciate any Asian/Native American/African American mixture in the pictures I've seen so far.

I think someone said that William Livings' wife was African-American and there could have been Native American in that line as well.

 

[folieadeuxnola]

Undoubtedly their was a significant enough hit within these families and within the area. For a call to action of uploading DNA from these families. Do I think MC's mom is from this area possibly but the most we know it is relatives. Also have to keep in mind families progressed onward way back when they followed the railroad lines mostly westward. Has anyone followed any of the family lines out of state or have they primarily stayed in state ?

 

[Vespertine]

Undoubtedly their was a significant enough hit within these families and within the area. For a call to action of uploading DNA from these families. Do I think MC's mom is from this area possibly but the most we know it is relatives. Also have to keep in mind families progressed onward way back when they followed the railroad lines mostly westward. Has anyone followed any of the family lines out of state or have they primarily stayed in state ?

What is messing with my mind is the family seem to be moving to and around Slidell, St Tammany Parish, Louisiana

 

[Alleykins]

I think someone said that William Livings' wife was African-American and there could have been Native American in that line as well.

I believe William's wife's grandmother was Creek Indian from Georgia, if I'm following correctly.

 

[Winstigator23]

What is messing with my mind is the family seem to be moving to and around Slidell, St Tammany Parish, Louisiana

Yeah from what I can tell (FB + Obituaries), family stayed around McNeill, Picayune and Carriere MS and the the rest of the locations you mentioned in LA. All the locations in MS seem to be bordering Louisiana as well. The timeline did say TPR did spend time in Louisiana in the 70s right?so its plausible thats where TRP met our mother.

 

[Alleykins]

Yeah from what I can tell (FB + Obituaries), family stayed around McNeill, Picayune and Carriere MS and the the rest of the locations you mentioned in LA. All the locations in MS seem to be bordering Louisiana as well. The timeline did say TPR did spend time in Louisiana in the 70s right?so its plausible thats where TRP met our mother.

I don't recall Louisiana or Mississippi being in his timeline at all. Not saying they weren't, I will have to go back and check. I recall TPR locations as AZ, ID, CA, HI, NH, TX, VA, OR, possibly Canada, and one of his stolen identities was from GA, to name a few. But LA & MS don't ring a bell with me at all as one of the locations he was known to have visited.
These folks don't appear to have left that area often. They were born there, and died there. And some of them lived very, very long lives (ie born in 1894, died in 1984). What a hardy lot.

 

[Alleykins]

Now that Marlyse and her daughters have been identified, does anyone know if investigators searched again through school records, looking to see if Marie was enrolled in school while in NH? I know they did it back in the day, before they were ID'd, trying to find if a little girl stopped showing up for school. I think this may be useful in filling in some holes in the timeline. If they were there from late 78 until Elizabeth Evans isn't listed on TPR's October arrest for diverting electricity, that's plenty of time for Marie to have attended school.

 

[Earth]

Now that Marlyse and her daughters have been identified, does anyone know if investigators searched again through school records, looking to see if Marie was enrolled in school while in NH? I know they did it back in the day, before they were ID'd, trying to find if a little girl stopped showing up for school. I think this may be useful in filling in some holes in the timeline. If they were there from late 78 until Elizabeth Evans isn't listed on TPR's October arrest for diverting electricity, that's plenty of time for Marie to have attended school.

Not if they were locked away in the room that TPR didn't want anybody to enter. It was mentioned somewhere in the last thread.