NH NH - Allenstown, Adult Female, 23-33, & 3 Children, under 11, Nov'85 & May'00 #3

[Irish_Eyes]

This is a giant, giant project. I feel like my tree must include every person who ever stepped foot in southern Mississipi by now, it's huge, and way into collateral lines as well. In reality though my tree is focused on a fairly small group of white families that intermarried in various places. But even that small group is pretty dang big.

I occasionally find something that looks promising, and I haven't ruled all of those out yet, but that doesn't mean I've ruled any in, either.

 

[onceuponadecember]

This is a giant, giant project. I feel like my tree must include every person who ever stepped foot in southern Mississipi by now, it's huge, and way into collateral lines as well. In reality though my tree is focused on a fairly small group of white families that intermarried in various places. But even that small group is pretty dang big.

I occasionally find something that looks promising, and I haven't ruled all of those out yet, but that doesn't mean I've ruled any in, either.

Good to hear! I’m honestly worried right now- what if the mother hid her pregnancy and we don’t learn JD’s name?
IMO

 

[Alleykins]

Good to hear! I’m honestly worried right now- what if the mother hid her pregnancy and we don’t learn JD’s name?
IMO

I have similar concerns.

 

[Susikatze]

Or.... she was estranged from family and friends when she dated TPR (who knows under what name he went then) and nobody knew she had a child. She could have left the child with TPR after the breakup and still not reconciled with family or told them about her child. She does not have to be dead (she may be by now from natural causes, but she does not have to be killed by TPR).
We know that plenty people go years or decades without contact (we know from some cases here like Vance Rodriguez, Louise Peterson, Jessica Landrith and many others that dropped off the radar for years...we know their stories because they were found deceased and then IDd, but there are plenty of living people who do the same).
That is why I still think that the search should not focus on a missing person necessarily

 

[Irish_Eyes]

Or.... she was estranged from family and friends when she dated TPR (who knows under what name he went then) and nobody knew she had a child. She could have left the child with TPR after the breakup and still not reconciled with family or told them about her child. She does not have to be dead (she may be by now from natural causes, but she does not have to be killed by TPR).
We know that plenty people go years or decades without contact (we know from some cases here like Vance Rodriguez, Louise Peterson, Jessica Landrith and many others that dropped off the radar for years...we know their stories because they were found deceased and then IDd, but there are plenty of living people who do the same).
That is why I still think that the search should not focus on a missing person necessarily

Yeah, if I find someone promising that seems like they ceased to exist obviously that will ring some bells. But I do think it's possible she could be alive, even if it's very unlikely, so I'm not just focusing on missing persons.

When I think back on the isotope info it suggested that Marlyse and her kids were local but that the middle daughter had only recently arrived. But interestingly, the middle child's isotope map also doesn't point to Mississippi or Louisiana or South Texas. So where was this child? How does she rejoin Rasmussen?

I've always considered the possibility that he killed the mother around the time he supposedly left Texas, probably around mid-1978. But if that's the case, who was the child with while they were in NH?

Maybe it's possible that Rasmussen was able to pawn the child off for a while on a friend or relative. Colorado and Arizona are both in her isotope map zone. Maybe he had a story of either the mom dying tragically or of her up and leaving him. And if he was working on an oil rig, that would be kind of a good cover. You can't take a baby out on an oil rig with you. Plus, that's kind of what he did with Lisa too, so it fits him somewhat.

I estimate for my own purposes that the middle child was born in late 1976. She was estimated to be about a year older than Sarah and we know Sarah was born in late 77. This means if he did pawn her off on someone, she was probably around 18-24 months old at that time.

Maybe he called that person to check in once and a while, promising each time he was almost back on his feet, until they finally said, no, come and get your kid. Or maybe, like with Lisa, they wanted to adopt her and that made him come get her. Presumably, in the case of an adoption, they'd want both parents to sign off, or a death certificate for the mother, and neither would have been an option for him.

 

[Susikatze]

Also the Middle Child was killed together with Marlyse and her children. It would have been easy for TPR, since he was in a new "stable" relationship with Marlyse and takung on her kids, to pick his own child up from whereever she was. Or the mother of Middle Child gave her to TPR, because he now seemed to be in a stable family setup with a new girlfriend and 2 other small girls, one of a similar age than Middle Child. Maybe Middle Child was in some sort of foster situation with friends and then TPR claimed her because he was now in a stable family where MC would fit right in.
The mom was likely out of the picture by then, either she had left the scene a long time ago or was killed... but we so far did not find anybody missing... but then again, mom could have been an out of wedlock foster or adoptive child herself... like El Dorado JD. We see her lineage but cannot find where she would fit in.

Yeah, if I find someone promising that seems like they ceased to exist obviously that will ring some bells. But I do think it's possible she could be alive, even if it's very unlikely, so I'm not just focusing on missing persons.

When I think back on the isotope info it suggested that Marlyse and her kids were local but that the middle daughter had only recently arrived. But interestingly, the middle child's isotope map also doesn't point to Mississippi or Louisiana or South Texas. So where was this child? How does she rejoin Rasmussen?

I've always considered the possibility that he killed the mother around the time he supposedly left Texas, probably around mid-1978. But if that's the case, who was the child with while they were in NH?

Maybe it's possible that Rasmussen was able to pawn the child off for a while on a friend or relative. Colorado and Arizona are both in her isotope map zone. Maybe he had a story of either the mom dying tragically or of her up and leaving him. And if he was working on an oil rig, that would be kind of a good cover. You can't take a baby out on an oil rig with you. Plus, that's kind of what he did with Lisa too, so it fits him somewhat.

I estimate for my own purposes that the middle child was born in late 1976. She was estimated to be about a year older than Sarah and we know Sarah was born in late 77. This means if he did pawn her off on someone, she was probably around 18-24 months old at that time.

Maybe he called that person to check in once and a while, promising each time he was almost back on his feet, until they finally said, no, come and get your kid. Or maybe, like with Lisa, they wanted to adopt her and that made him come get her. Presumably, in the case of an adoption, they'd want both parents to sign off, or a death certificate for the mother, and neither would have been an option for him.

 

[Alleykins]

@Irish_Eyes

My understanding of the isotopes was that the MC was in NH 2 weeks to 3 months before her death. Before that, she was in her home area, a more inland, northern climate. 3 to 7 months before their deaths, before coming to NH, Marlyse and her children spent some time in a more northern climate. I was never able to determine if those northern climates were the same. No one in the audience at the press conference picked up on that, and an audience member interrupts the AG and they move on before he can expound on that tidbit. No one asks him about it further on during the Q&A. Based on that, it appears all of them arrived in NH together (or, at least Marlyse & all the children, who knows about TPR), because the AG said they lived together as a family unit the weeks and months before their deaths: they ate the same food, drank the same water, breathed the same air. So, I'm thinking they picked up the MC somewhere along the route between CA and NH.

 

[Irish_Eyes]

@Irish_Eyes

My understanding of the isotopes was that the MC was in NH 2 weeks to 3 months before her death. Before that, she was in her home area, a more inland, northern climate. 3 to 7 months before their deaths, before coming to NH, Marlyse and her children spent some time in a more northern climate. I was never able to determine if those northern climates were the same. No one in the audience at the press conference picked up on that, and an audience member interrupts the AG and they move on before he can expound on that tidbit. No one asks him about it further on during the Q&A. Based on that, it appears all of them arrived in NH together (or, at least Marlyse & all the children, who knows about TPR), because the AG said they lived together as a family unit the weeks and months before their deaths: they ate the same food, drank the same water, breathed the same air. So, I'm thinking they picked up the MC somewhere along the route between CA and NH.

Do you have a link to where you're pulling this info from?

We do know that Marlyse spent time in New England before she met Rasmussen. And Marie too. So for them that makes sense. But the middle child does have a different isotope signature than the others. and the others were very likely in New Hampshire for more than three months. So it doesn't seem like they could have picked her up on their way there, or she'd have shown NH isotopes for longer than 2 weeks to three months.

The exception would be if she had died earlier than the others, if she'd only been alive for a few weeks or months after arriving in New Hampshire. It's not impossible. It probably would mean she was born a year earlier than we assume. If she died in early 1979, she was probably born in early-to mid 1975, which means her mother was with Rasmussen in late 1974. That's when he's still in Arizona and still married to his wife. On the other hand, that would be a good reason for his wife to leave him in the middle of 1975, wouldn't it??

 

[onceuponadecember]

Here's my guess with the MC:
Mother probably thought JD might have a better life with Terry and Marlyse- he had a job and a new family, which is what she might have been unable to provide. It's possible the mother was murdered, but I think she might have thought he could give her a better life and she stayed away.
IMO

 

[Alleykins]

Do you have a link to where you're pulling this info from?

We do know that Marlyse spent time in New England before she met Rasmussen. And Marie too. So for them that makes sense. But the middle child does have a different isotope signature than the others. and the others were very likely in New Hampshire for more than three months. So it doesn't seem like they could have picked her up on their way there, or she'd have shown NH isotopes for longer than 2 weeks to three months.

The exception would be if she had died earlier than the others, if she'd only been alive for a few weeks or months after arriving in New Hampshire. It's not impossible. It probably would mean she was born a year earlier than we assume. If she died in early 1979, she was probably born in early-to mid 1975, which means her mother was with Rasmussen in late 1974. That's when he's still in Arizona and still married to his wife. On the other hand, that would be a good reason for his wife to leave him in the middle of 1975, wouldn't it??

I got that from the 2015 press conference raw footage from WMUR, when they first released the isotope results. It's been posted a couple of times on the previous A4 thread, but I don't link youtube videos in the threads anymore because they take up a whole page. Here's the vid title you can search instead:

Raw video: Authorities reveal new details about Allenstown cold case

Marlyse was originally from CT and spent a bit of her childhood on the East coast before her family moved to CA, so that part of her isotopes were spot on. I don't recall Marie's whereabouts prior to 78, though.
And I didn't think it had been established exactly how long Marlyse & the girls were in NH before they were killed, though. I thought it was only speculation they had been there longer, and speculation Marlyse may have been Elizabeth Evans who signed for that letter. We don't know for sure, do we?
But, according to this press conference, and based on their isotopes, none of them were in NH long at all (except for TPR). And the info about Marlyse & her daughters being in a more northern climate than NH 3-7 months before they died is in the Q & A session if you wanna fast forward, it's rather long. I thought that bit of information was significant but it went over the live audience's head.

 

[Irish_Eyes]

I got that from the 2015 press conference raw footage from WMUR, when they first released the isotope results. It's been posted a couple of times on the previous A4 thread, but I don't link youtube videos in the threads anymore because they take up a whole page. Here's the vid title you can search instead:

Raw video: Authorities reveal new details about Allenstown cold case

Marlyse was originally from CT and spent a bit of her childhood on the East coast before her family moved to CA, so that part of her isotopes were spot on. I don't recall Marie's whereabouts prior to 78, though.
And I didn't think it had been established exactly how long Marlyse & the girls were in NH before they were killed, though. I thought it was only speculation they had been there longer, and speculation Marlyse may have been Elizabeth Evans who signed for that letter. We don't know for sure, do we?
But, according to this press conference, and based on their isotopes, none of them were in NH long at all (except for TPR). And the info about Marlyse & her daughters being in a more northern climate than NH 3-7 months before they died is in the Q & A session if you wanna fast forward, it's rather long. I thought that bit of information was significant but it went over the live audience's head.

Sarah McWaters was born in December of 1977. She was estimated to be between 1-3 years with investigators saying to lean toward he upper end of the age ranges for the children. Estimate 2.5 years then, and she might have died in summer of 1980, and even fall is not out of reach entirely.

I'll have to go back and watch it. I don't remember them saying "More northern climate than NH," but basically "more northern part of the US." Either way I don't know if it matters much for our purposes. The point regarding the middle child is that according to the isotopes, until shortly before her death she was likely at a different location than the rest of the family members.

 

[Shane 65]

[George Kamenov] “Her hair showed that the last few months before death, she was living in the area. However, about 5-7 months before death, she went somewhere -- either to the North or to the West. To a colder climate where the oxygen isotopes are lower. And what’s interesting is that the unrelated victim, the fourth girl that is not related by DNA, her teeth also show these lighter oxygen isotopes. So one possible interpretation is that that’s the time when the non-related girl joined the group.”

The isotope comments made at the presser and elaborated on in the podcast were duly noted. The Mitchell/Livings descendants who wound up in Toronto and northern NH give one pause for thought.

 

[MadMcGoo]

Do you have a link to where you're pulling this info from?

We do know that Marlyse spent time in New England before she met Rasmussen. And Marie too. So for them that makes sense. But the middle child does have a different isotope signature than the others. and the others were very likely in New Hampshire for more than three months. So it doesn't seem like they could have picked her up on their way there, or she'd have shown NH isotopes for longer than 2 weeks to three months.

The exception would be if she had died earlier than the others, if she'd only been alive for a few weeks or months after arriving in New Hampshire. It's not impossible. It probably would mean she was born a year earlier than we assume. If she died in early 1979, she was probably born in early-to mid 1975, which means her mother was with Rasmussen in late 1974. That's when he's still in Arizona and still married to his wife. On the other hand, that would be a good reason for his wife to leave him in the middle of 1975, wouldn't it??

I hadn’t really thought much about when the middle child could have been conceived, only born. He likely would have met the mother close to when his wife and children “left him”. Now I wonder if those events are mutually exclusive. Could one of the reasons they left be that he was involved with another woman? That’s interesting.

 

[Alleykins]

The isotope comments made at the presser and elaborated on in the podcast were duly noted. The Mitchell/Livings descendants who wound up in Toronto and northern NH give one pause for thought.

@Shane 65
For those of us watching at home, it appeared to go right over everyone asking questions' heads. It got lost in the Q&A shuffle. No one asked if it was the same northern climate as where the MC's isotopes were, but it jumped out at me.
I have never heard of George Kamenov, so I looked him up. Interesting remarks. That's how I took that particular info on the isotope results to mean, after watching the press conference. Thanks for the additional information.
I wonder if lower oxygen levels could also mean higher altitudes, like the Rockies or higher elevations.

 

[Shane 65]

@Shane 65
For those of us watching at home, it appeared to go right over everyone asking questions' heads. It got lost in the Q&A shuffle. No one asked if it was the same northern climate as where the MC's isotopes were, but it jumped out at me.
I have never heard of George Kamenov, so I looked him up. Interesting remarks. That's how I took that particular info on the isotope results to mean, after watching the press conference. Thanks for the additional information.
I wonder if lower oxygen levels could also mean higher altitudes, like the Rockies or higher elevations.

Those asking Qs at the press conference(s) were mainly reporters trying to nail down the twists and turns to make the story comprehensible to viewers. And that was primarily the purpose of the forum as there were still unidentified victims and back stories to be learned. Yes, and I think Oregon and such places may hold value in this isotope framework. I have often thought of the psychiatrist whose number TPR dialed from memory. If I'm recalling corrrectly, that was an Oregon number. I imagine we'll know soon as to the accuracy of the isotope interpretations!

 

[Alleykins]

Those asking Qs at the press conference(s) were mainly reporters trying to nail down the twists and turns to make the story comprehensible to viewers. And that was primarily the purpose of the forum as there were still unidentified victims and back stories to be learned. Yes, and I think Oregon and such places may hold value in this isotope framework. I have often thought of the psychiatrist whose number TPR dialed from memory. If I'm recalling corrrectly, that was an Oregon number. I imagine we'll know soon as to the accuracy of the isotope interpretations!

From TPR's timeline, Nov. 2002:

California, East Richmond Heights – Arrested for the homicide of Eusoon Jun While being interviewed TR was provided a phone he called a therapist in Eugene, Oregon. LE watched the number TR dialed and later contacted the therapist due to patient confidentiality the therapist was able to release any information to LE. However, a description was provided to the therapist when asked if this was a patient the therapist said no.

 

[folieadeuxnola]

Isotope map .... there was also a statement in the presser that MC came from a more northern inland climate.

 

[folieadeuxnola]

Press Conference Nov 2015

 

[Irish_Eyes]

Someone mentioned Livings/Mitchell descendants who ended up in NH or Toronto. If there are some, can you message me so I can add them where they belong??

 

[Irish_Eyes]

Thanks for digging that up Nola!

He's pretty definite that all the victims are from the US. If they spent time in Canada, it was brief. I see what others are saying about the "more northern" remarks, I too wish he would have been asked to clarify that more.

BUT, another thing forgotten in the time since with all the info we have is that he says those barrells were put there between 1980 and 1984 and they've ruled out anything before or after that. This strongly suggests that all four were alive as of 1/1/1980. So again with my own logic, age estimate for Sarah was roughly 2.5 years, because we know her identity now ,and we know she was born in December of 77, summer of 1980 is a good estimate.

For Marie, he gives a wider estimate but says they really think she was most likely between 9-10. We now know Marie was born in December of 1971. Add 9.5 years to that and you get....summer of 1980.

So I really do think now that "Elizabeth" is Marlyse. The timing of "Elizabeth" disappearing matches with the timing of the girls' deaths likely occurring.