Soulmagent
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I wondered if they were from an amish community and not reported due to Amish code or something.
NH NH - Allenstown, Adult Female & 3 Children, found Nov'85 & May'00
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I wondered if they were from an amish community and not reported due to Amish code or something.
justiceBserved
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Could be a definite idea worth looking into, as Amish are all over this part of the country. As for Amish code, there are a lot of government things/requirements they do not involve themselves with, but most of the Amish I know do work with LE when it comes to crimes,, murder, missing persons, etc. Still, you never kn ow, and it is one avenue worth exploring.
justiceBserved
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If no one has done this or does not have the ability, or even if you want to split the responsibility, I will do this. It may take a few days to do them all, but if someone has a flyer they can PM to me, I will take on all or part of the job.
justiceBserved
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I am spending a good part of my day sleuthing missing persons to see if we can gain some headway on this case. After just a couple of days of reading, this case saddens and sickens me, and I, like the rest of you, hope this woman and three children can finally have their names back, and justice can be served for them and their family or families.
Some previous posters have mentioned how this case should be easy to solve and others have pointed out good and valid reasons why it has not been. If we consider the many reasons why, it is somewhat easy to see that, despite no stone unturned, the case remains cold. Still, something may have been missed, or a new case may have come to attention, requiring a fresh set of eyes to help sleuth this case, and of course, this is where Websleuthers come in.
I definitely agree that there is the slight possibility of this being a case of illegal immigrants. I also agree that it could be people from faraway states. Another country legally, I am not so sure. The person would have to have ties to no one here who would miss them and report them missing because legal immigrants are going to be documented and identifiable. The most likely scenario in my mind is someone who is somewhat, if not altogether, estranged from family somewhere else in the US, has relocated far away, and no one knows they are missing. It could be a case like my own life. I love most of my family (although I could do without certain ones), but our family has never been real close. Because of that kind of drama and a much needed change, as well as my own dreams, my fiancé and I now live more than 1430 miles from our hometown. We are happy and doing well, and have bog plans for the future. However, we are only sporadically involved with family back home, and frankly, if we went missing, no one would probably notice.
Getting back on track, as I said, I will sleuth more possibilities today, but taking information from earlier posts and ideas, I have listed a few in this post.
A few things to consider:
Age, height, hair color, etc., is not necessarily exact. Yes, science is a handy tool, but we have to consider changes that come with age, body chemistry, development of the body (especially early development (precocious puberty perhaps in the female), early pregnancy, chemical contamination of the bodies (being in the barrels), and exposure to the elements... among other factors.
It would be ever so helpful if we had the results of isotope testing to narrow this down and if we had confirmation as to the mtDNA link between the woman and children. I have not yet found confirmation that she is or is not the mother, just that there is a mtDNA link of some kind, and that the middle child is allegedly not related by mtDNA, but I do believe that was not conclusive (correct me if I am wrong) and that nuclear DNA testing has been difficult to achieve at this point.
I have perused many missing persons listings thus far this morning. It would be great to run onto one where a woman and at least two children fitting these descriptions are mentioned, but nothing thus far. I have come across mostly individuals and am first perusing the NH and surrounding states, as well as Canada.
I can say I do not doubt the thoroughness of the NH Cold Case Unit. All of my dealings with NH police detectives have been superb.
Do we know anything about distinctive marks? Scars, tattoos, fractures/breaks, etc.?
http://doenetwork.org/cases/705dfab.html
http://www.doenetwork.org/cases/17dfpa.html
Ages, hair, and eye color could be off here, as well as height and weight. These two are just minute possibilities, given the time of their disappearance and locations. And if you consider possible stress, drug use, aging, and a number of other factors, if the reconstruction is correct, those things could account for changes in appearance.
Australia Australia - Lynette Dawson, 34, Sydney, Jan 1982 - Presumed dead - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community
Possibility that this woman’s husband killed her, but her family also believes she may have left the abusive situation on her own. I think she looks somewhat like the Allenstown adult female reconstruction. Could just be a coincidence of course, especially since we are not working with a known victim and real photo. Could she have made her way to NH? Possibly... although you would think her departure would not have been so hasty and records would exist...
Sorry so long-winded. More to come soon.
Some previous posters have mentioned how this case should be easy to solve and others have pointed out good and valid reasons why it has not been. If we consider the many reasons why, it is somewhat easy to see that, despite no stone unturned, the case remains cold. Still, something may have been missed, or a new case may have come to attention, requiring a fresh set of eyes to help sleuth this case, and of course, this is where Websleuthers come in.
I definitely agree that there is the slight possibility of this being a case of illegal immigrants. I also agree that it could be people from faraway states. Another country legally, I am not so sure. The person would have to have ties to no one here who would miss them and report them missing because legal immigrants are going to be documented and identifiable. The most likely scenario in my mind is someone who is somewhat, if not altogether, estranged from family somewhere else in the US, has relocated far away, and no one knows they are missing. It could be a case like my own life. I love most of my family (although I could do without certain ones), but our family has never been real close. Because of that kind of drama and a much needed change, as well as my own dreams, my fiancé and I now live more than 1430 miles from our hometown. We are happy and doing well, and have bog plans for the future. However, we are only sporadically involved with family back home, and frankly, if we went missing, no one would probably notice.
Getting back on track, as I said, I will sleuth more possibilities today, but taking information from earlier posts and ideas, I have listed a few in this post.
A few things to consider:
Age, height, hair color, etc., is not necessarily exact. Yes, science is a handy tool, but we have to consider changes that come with age, body chemistry, development of the body (especially early development (precocious puberty perhaps in the female), early pregnancy, chemical contamination of the bodies (being in the barrels), and exposure to the elements... among other factors.
It would be ever so helpful if we had the results of isotope testing to narrow this down and if we had confirmation as to the mtDNA link between the woman and children. I have not yet found confirmation that she is or is not the mother, just that there is a mtDNA link of some kind, and that the middle child is allegedly not related by mtDNA, but I do believe that was not conclusive (correct me if I am wrong) and that nuclear DNA testing has been difficult to achieve at this point.
I have perused many missing persons listings thus far this morning. It would be great to run onto one where a woman and at least two children fitting these descriptions are mentioned, but nothing thus far. I have come across mostly individuals and am first perusing the NH and surrounding states, as well as Canada.
I can say I do not doubt the thoroughness of the NH Cold Case Unit. All of my dealings with NH police detectives have been superb.
Do we know anything about distinctive marks? Scars, tattoos, fractures/breaks, etc.?
http://doenetwork.org/cases/705dfab.html
http://www.doenetwork.org/cases/17dfpa.html
Ages, hair, and eye color could be off here, as well as height and weight. These two are just minute possibilities, given the time of their disappearance and locations. And if you consider possible stress, drug use, aging, and a number of other factors, if the reconstruction is correct, those things could account for changes in appearance.
Australia Australia - Lynette Dawson, 34, Sydney, Jan 1982 - Presumed dead - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community
Possibility that this woman’s husband killed her, but her family also believes she may have left the abusive situation on her own. I think she looks somewhat like the Allenstown adult female reconstruction. Could just be a coincidence of course, especially since we are not working with a known victim and real photo. Could she have made her way to NH? Possibly... although you would think her departure would not have been so hasty and records would exist...
Sorry so long-winded. More to come soon.
what do you think about this woman? Went missing while pregnant, facial features are similar, fits age range. Has not been excluded.
https://www16.state.nj.us/NJSP_Amber/DispatchAction.do?parameter=mp_detail&mp_id=292&type=mp
https://www16.state.nj.us/NJSP_Amber/DispatchAction.do?parameter=mp_detail&mp_id=292&type=mp
MadeaBecBec
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Wanted to have the latest recons here so we can see them instantly...
MadeaBecBec
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Also, wanted to see about this possible match;
http://doenetwork.org/cases/921dfbc.html
Yvonne Marlene Abigosis
Missing since January 1, 1984 from Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada.
Classification: Endangered Missing
Vital Statistics
Date Of Birth: November 23, 1957
Age at Time of Disappearance: 27 years old
Height and Weight at Time of Disappearance: 5'6"; 120 lbs.
Distinguishing Characteristics: Native female. Wavy black hair; brown eyes.
Circumstances of Disappearance
Yvonne was last seen on January 1st, 1984 and reported missing on May 22nd, 2002.
ETA: I am thinking the people that reported her missing guessed on the date last seen, unless there was an arrest date or something, also considering the reason she was reported (finally) in 2002 is the investigation of missing women being killed by Robert Pickton.... JMO
http://doenetwork.org/cases/921dfbc.html
Yvonne Marlene Abigosis
Missing since January 1, 1984 from Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada.
Classification: Endangered Missing
Vital Statistics
Date Of Birth: November 23, 1957
Age at Time of Disappearance: 27 years old
Height and Weight at Time of Disappearance: 5'6"; 120 lbs.
Distinguishing Characteristics: Native female. Wavy black hair; brown eyes.
Circumstances of Disappearance
Yvonne was last seen on January 1st, 1984 and reported missing on May 22nd, 2002.
ETA: I am thinking the people that reported her missing guessed on the date last seen, unless there was an arrest date or something, also considering the reason she was reported (finally) in 2002 is the investigation of missing women being killed by Robert Pickton.... JMO
Attachments
Remember that she had atleast 2 children when she was found. They would have mentioned that the missing woman disappeared with children in the missing cases (unless there were some weird circumstances for instance no one knew she has been pregnant and she went to get her kids back and so forth)
MadeaBecBec
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The last known alive date and reported missing date of Ms. Abigosis is 18 1/2 years apart, so, I am reasoning that the family or whomever reported her missing were not in consistent contact or may have been estranged, so they may have been completely unaware that she had children.
Fellows Websleuthers could there be another body out there somewhere, it has always stated that one of the girls was not biologically related to the wooman as a daughter but could be a relative, some maybe instead of one woman and three kids murdered there could be two women and three or more kids murdered. Questions did investigators throughly search the area completely there might be more barrels out there, or the body could just be buried outthere somewhere. If I were the investigators in this case I would start looking into communes, the Native American Indian and migrant worker communtity as well as looking into religious cults.
Checking over a few of the anonymous pics found with "dating game" sk , these ones caught my eye.
# 10, 12, 56, 36 and 44
http://www.cbsnews.com/2300-504083_162-10006434-95.html
# 10, 12, 56, 36 and 44
http://www.cbsnews.com/2300-504083_162-10006434-95.html
carbuff
Well-Known Member
Lots to think about in your great post. I just wanted to comment on one aspect of it now:
It was reported in the NH/Boston media that the testing on the middle child was inconclusive, apparently because they couldn't retrieve an adequate sample from the child's bones. I can't find an online article that confirms that, however.
mtDNA is passed on pretty much unchanged down the female line. It doesn't include any information about the male line or about relationships. All it can tell you is that the three individuals have a common female ancestor. That could be several generations back, or as recently as the mother-child relationship that other evidence would seem to hint at.
Hopefully improved techniques for retrieving damaged DNA from old bones will let them develop a sample large enough for a complete nuclear DNA profile that would provide additional information.
The degree of deterioration in the bones leads me to believe the barrels weren't empty, but as far as I know, nothing has ever been released about what they might have been used for, where they came from, etc. They aren't even sure whether the victims were moved there in the barrels, or killed on the site and stashed in barrels that were already there.
I quite agree with this thought EveDallas - maybe another woman was killed first and this group that was found witnessed it and had to be silenced.
justiceBserved
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Great question, EyeDallas! It's a question among a list of things I am about to post shortly. Determining info on the barrels would be very helpful, IMHO.
justiceBserved
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I can see a resemblance. Could be a coincidence, maybe not. Would be better if we had info as to whether this missing person left of her own accord because that would be the most likely scenario were she pregnant and have gone on to live elsewhere and have more children. Still, it has not yet been determined if these children were in fact hers or how they were related. And while she could have been taken while pregnant and held captive... who knows?
justiceBserved
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All great posts and points, fellow sleuthers! There are so many unanswered questions and possibilities, and the idea that there could be another body is both sad and frightening. However, it is a reasonable deduction if no one is looking for the kids and the adult is not their mother (if ever proven). Unless there mother was involved, God forbid, one would think she is either dead or being held captive somewhere.
Now, after an exhaustive search of missing persons cases across this country and beyond for the last 50 years and then some (I was trying to be more than thorough). It truly is safe to say that none of the reported cases I have found matches this particular UID case. More specifically, I concur that there are few where a woman a two children have gone missing (her own or otherwise), and even fewer involving four missing individuals, let alone three children. I have looked at missing individuals who could have been missing for many years prior to the murder, including cases of sisters, just to be safe. Still, there is nothing, thus far, matching the given info. Which leads me to the following:
1) Was LE ever able to determine how long these barrels had been there? I know it is a remot area and few heads would turn at dumping in the area at the time, but more info on those barrels could certainly narrow down a time frame and possible location of origin.
2) What if the date of death is way off? Remember The Body Farm? It was started because an age given on bones was recent, when in fact, the bones came from the civil war. We have four deceased persons, probably affected by the chemicals or residues in the barrels, and not really exposed to the elements until the first bodies were knocked out of the barrel somehow in 1985. We could be looking at the right ages, given some of the tests that were run, but we could also be looking at missing/deceased persons from much longer ago than we thought. It is not hard to see someone killing people, storing their bodies, and then moving them for some reason many years later.
3) I do agree still that this could be a family of immigrants, a family that is way off the grid for one reason or another, or even an individual held captive for a long time who later gave birth, etc. Te point is, the adult and children could really have no vital records data to help solve this case.
4) I do not agree that the deceased are Native American. I think they may have some Native blood, but given the information offered up to this point, and the facial reconstructions, I believe they are Caucasian with definite European ancestry, and maybe a smidgeon of Native blood. I am part Native American, and I look more Native than these victims. But, we also must remember that my opinion here is based on the given facts and reconstructions, and this is highly dependent on how accurate those facts and reconstructions are.
5) How much questioning was done in the nearby trailer park? Surely, if a group had lived there and was suddenly gone, people would know. I lived in a trailer park, and although we tended to keep to ourselves, everyone knew what was going on: who was there, who was gone, etc.
6) The NH Cold Case Unit is very interested and dedicated to solving this case and many others. Investigators continue to dig as deep as they can, trying to determine the who and why of the matter. They d want justice for the victims, and they could use some outside help and fresh eyes. That being said, there is only so much we on the outside can and should do: offer leads, ideas... without stepping on toes and causing chaos. While contacting the nearby reservations is a good idea, it is also one that should be handled and sanctioned by the NHCCU. Having been involved in other missing persons’ cases, I have seen people in the groups I have investigated with reprimanded for stepping outside their boundaries. Good intentions are one thing, but we really must practice caution in not complicated or hindering LE’s job while also trying to help.
I am not saying we should not do it. We just need to determine if it has or has not been done, whether it should be done again given the passage of time, and go about it carefully. Remember, jurisdiction is a touchy subject between the reservations and outsiders.
That being said, I have nothing more to go on right now, but will keep following up on this case with more ideas and information as it becomes available.
Now, after an exhaustive search of missing persons cases across this country and beyond for the last 50 years and then some (I was trying to be more than thorough). It truly is safe to say that none of the reported cases I have found matches this particular UID case. More specifically, I concur that there are few where a woman a two children have gone missing (her own or otherwise), and even fewer involving four missing individuals, let alone three children. I have looked at missing individuals who could have been missing for many years prior to the murder, including cases of sisters, just to be safe. Still, there is nothing, thus far, matching the given info. Which leads me to the following:
1) Was LE ever able to determine how long these barrels had been there? I know it is a remot area and few heads would turn at dumping in the area at the time, but more info on those barrels could certainly narrow down a time frame and possible location of origin.
2) What if the date of death is way off? Remember The Body Farm? It was started because an age given on bones was recent, when in fact, the bones came from the civil war. We have four deceased persons, probably affected by the chemicals or residues in the barrels, and not really exposed to the elements until the first bodies were knocked out of the barrel somehow in 1985. We could be looking at the right ages, given some of the tests that were run, but we could also be looking at missing/deceased persons from much longer ago than we thought. It is not hard to see someone killing people, storing their bodies, and then moving them for some reason many years later.
3) I do agree still that this could be a family of immigrants, a family that is way off the grid for one reason or another, or even an individual held captive for a long time who later gave birth, etc. Te point is, the adult and children could really have no vital records data to help solve this case.
4) I do not agree that the deceased are Native American. I think they may have some Native blood, but given the information offered up to this point, and the facial reconstructions, I believe they are Caucasian with definite European ancestry, and maybe a smidgeon of Native blood. I am part Native American, and I look more Native than these victims. But, we also must remember that my opinion here is based on the given facts and reconstructions, and this is highly dependent on how accurate those facts and reconstructions are.
5) How much questioning was done in the nearby trailer park? Surely, if a group had lived there and was suddenly gone, people would know. I lived in a trailer park, and although we tended to keep to ourselves, everyone knew what was going on: who was there, who was gone, etc.
6) The NH Cold Case Unit is very interested and dedicated to solving this case and many others. Investigators continue to dig as deep as they can, trying to determine the who and why of the matter. They d want justice for the victims, and they could use some outside help and fresh eyes. That being said, there is only so much we on the outside can and should do: offer leads, ideas... without stepping on toes and causing chaos. While contacting the nearby reservations is a good idea, it is also one that should be handled and sanctioned by the NHCCU. Having been involved in other missing persons’ cases, I have seen people in the groups I have investigated with reprimanded for stepping outside their boundaries. Good intentions are one thing, but we really must practice caution in not complicated or hindering LE’s job while also trying to help.
I am not saying we should not do it. We just need to determine if it has or has not been done, whether it should be done again given the passage of time, and go about it carefully. Remember, jurisdiction is a touchy subject between the reservations and outsiders.
That being said, I have nothing more to go on right now, but will keep following up on this case with more ideas and information as it becomes available.
carbuff
Well-Known Member
1. Information about the barrels has never been released, but LE has implied that they know at least something about them.
2. NHCCU seems to be well aware that the date of death being hard to pin down, but the earliest they've put it 1977-78. It has been reported a time or two that other items may have been found in the barrel, but again, that information has not been released.
5. The trailer park, the neighboring area, and every school within 30 miles was extensively researched. I knew a woman who lived not far from the trailer park at the time who said she was going to put in an extra guest room so the state trooper didn't have to go to all the trouble of driving home at night. I had a kid in the Nashua school system at the time and while they didn't directly interview every kid in the school, they did send home a note asking if we knew of anybody who had disappeared without warning.
I totally agree with you that the NHCCU is an excellent highly professional organization and anything we do should be coordinated with them. They seemed to be interested with the couple of thin leads I emailed in. And you're right, it's important to respect that this is their case, and it isn't just a mystery to be solved, it's a particularly vile criminal case.
Just a thought...The Mother Earth News began publication in 1970, and for a number of years, they had a classified ad section called "Positions and Situations" in which individuals wanting to move to the country could contact others. Some of these contacts did refer to communes. If anyone has a full run of the older issues, perhaps it would be a good idea to look for ads with NH addresses.
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