NH NH - Maura Murray, 21, Haverhill, 9 Feb 2004 - #10

[scoops]

In regard to Fred Murray, I personally don't think anything he has said or done since his daughter went missing after this one car accident really needs to be criticized. Any parent on earth would ask police for help in finding their child. A person who goes missing after a car accident warrants searches.
I feel like people are really hard on him for what he said and did after the accident, and I think it's just a bunch of white noise.
Fred brought up that she could be suicidal. In fact, the early missing posters referred to Maura Murray as endangered. Does that mean no one should look for her?
We don't know what information he has told police. There is always stuff in a missing person's case that is not open for public knowledge. For all we know, he has told police that he thinks she hit Vasi, was freaked out about that and CC fraud, and was probably suicidal.
I just feel really bad for the guy and I don't think he has anything whatsoever to do with her disappearance, and I'm tired of everything he says being over analyzed. If your child was missing, you would want all kinds of people searching, no matter what the circumstances were and no matter how old they are.
He seems like a tough guy, but one who really loved his daughter and is very worried about her and wants to know where she is. Any parent would fight for their child.

It really isn't a criticism about Fred Murray.

If I had a daughter who went missing, I would do and say anything that it would take to make sure finding my daughter was the top priority of whatever police department was handling the case and I wouldn't feel guilty at all about what I say, who I offend in the process or who I butt heads with along the process.

But this is a public case, requesting public help.


And if on one hand, family members are turning to the public to let them know that police are lying and family is giving out details to the public that go against what law enforcement have been saying, then I think it's fair game to try and hold people accountable to what has been said ---- On both ends (family/ law enforcement).

I personally have rarely delved into hypotheticals because they lead to nowhere.


Technically, Maura could've been abducted by someone who got her in their vehicle and drove off from the accident scene. But along their drive, the vehicle could've been ate by a sink hole, so technically Maura would've died by accident even though she had been abducted.

 

[BillNH]

this is a very safe place.... but serial killers and such .... NO ONE PLACE is immune to that.... we have had it hear in NH, in New England........ and i'm sure it will happen again.... or could be happening again
the mountain range areas out west are not a whole lot different than here... of course there are hikers that get lost or die on their trips unexpectedly.... but no matter where any of us live.... people... well girls and women in particular need to really play it safe.... that is sadly why these things happen

I agree with the above statement and it is very true.

Your original statement however...

there is something very very wrong up there with so many unsolved cases dating back to the 60's....

...was specifically pointing to the north country as some forlorn, crime riddled, lawless, no-man's land and that is simply untrue and inflammatory. As a full time resident with children who moved here in part because it was such a peaceful area, I do have issues with the original statement. Two very different statements, I am sure you will agree.

 

[BillNH]

One thing about the rag in the tailpipe disabling the vehicle. The stock muffler for a 96 Saturn SL2 had a very short tailpipe, about 5 - 6" long, all with a 90 degree curve before going into the body of the muffler. Inside the body of the muffler there is a series of perforated tubes that allows exhaust to pass through a very large area as opposed to a 2" tube. Basically a big filter. IMO there is no way within the 6" tailpipe you would be able to pack it tight enough to stall it. Even if you had a metal bar to pound that rag in there, all you would do is shove it into the muffler body. Once inside the muffler body, it would nearly take a bed sheet to plug it up. I would say that the vehicle stalling because of the rag would never happen on this vehicle in this situation. Now that does not mean that someone did not attempt to stall the vehicle with the rag, but I don't believe it is possible on this car in this case and did not happen.

 

[takeitfromme412]

I agree with the above statement and it is very true.

Your original statement however...

there is something very very wrong up there with so many unsolved cases dating back to the 60's....

...was specifically pointing to the north country as some forlorn, crime riddled, lawless, no-man's land and that is simply untrue and inflammatory. As a full time resident with children who moved here in part because it was such a peaceful area, I do have issues with the original statement. Two very different statements, I am sure you will agree.

i should have been more specific.... the unsolveds of the 60's, 70's and 80's..... which i think the perp responsible is long gone...... but at that time..... everyone was very aware and very scared...... and at that time... something was very wrong..... not everyone or the place itself..... the fact that a killer was working in NH and VT at that time.... right now... since 2001 as far as women and girls... we have 4..... celina cass, abigail hernandez, louise chaput and maura murray.... maybe connected, maybe not...... and we may never know

 

[takeitfromme412]

i'm originally from the northern area....... sooooo just sayin....

 

[Emorton]

i should have been more specific.... the unsolveds of the 60's, 70's and 80's..... which i think the perp responsible is long gone...... but at that time..... everyone was very aware and very scared...... and at that time... something was very wrong..... not everyone or the place itself..... the fact that a killer was working in NH and VT at that time.... right now... since 2001 as far as women and girls... we have 4..... celina cass, abigail hernandez, louise chaput and maura murray.... maybe connected, maybe not...... and we may never know

You can count also Brianna Maitland, from VT, disappeared just weeks after Maura and whose case has some similarities.

 

[OldSteve]

If James is reading this thread, I see he's asking for questions on his blog...
So here are some of mine:

Was MM in the practice of running at night using a flashlight.

Did she carry a flashlight in her car, and if so was it found?

In prior trips to college, did she leave her room unpacked?

Was he car ever tested to see just how poorly it ran without a rag in the tailpipe?

Was the Butch's "wife" ever given a lie detector test?

 

[McSpy]

It really isn't a criticism about Fred Murray.

If I had a daughter who went missing, I would do and say anything that it would take to make sure finding my daughter was the top priority of whatever police department was handling the case and I wouldn't feel guilty at all about what I say, who I offend in the process or who I butt heads with along the process.

But this is a public case, requesting public help.


And if on one hand, family members are turning to the public to let them know that police are lying and family is giving out details to the public that go against what law enforcement have been saying, then I think it's fair game to try and hold people accountable to what has been said ---- On both ends (family/ law enforcement).

I personally have rarely delved into hypotheticals because they lead to nowhere.


Technically, Maura could've been abducted by someone who got her in their vehicle and drove off from the accident scene. But along their drive, the vehicle could've been ate by a sink hole, so technically Maura would've died by accident even though she had been abducted.

In reality, the family is asking for tips or knowledge of what happened to Maura–––not being examined under the microscope. They want anyone with any tidbit knowledge of what happened to her to come forward. They want her face out there, so if anyone who has seen her will hopefully come forward. This is the public help they are interested in, IMO.

 

[McSpy]

If James is reading this thread, I see he's asking for questions on his blog...
So here are some of mine:

Was MM in the practice of running at night using a flashlight.

Did she carry a flashlight in her car, and if so was it found?

In prior trips to college, did she leave her room unpacked?

Was he car ever tested to see just how poorly it ran without a rag in the tailpipe?

Was the Butch's "wife" ever given a lie detector test?

Good questions. I've always wondered about a flashlight too. She did have an emergency kit in the trunk. A flashlight should have been a part of it, unless the batteries died and it was useless.

 

[McSpy]

You can count also Brianna Maitland, from VT, disappeared just weeks after Maura and whose case has some similarities.

IMO, I don't think the cases are related. Brianna had enemies and some hinky, hardcore drug friends from NYC. IMO, someone she knew killed her. Her car was found at a place she and her friends had partied often. A stranger would not have known about that spot.

 

[OldSteve]

IMO, I don't think the cases are related. Brianna had enemies and some hinky, hardcore drug friends from NYC. IMO, someone she knew killed her. Her car was found at a place she and her friends had partied often. A stranger would not have known about that spot.

Agree, that the two cases are not related.... Brianna was about to testify against a person who had punched her in the face...

 

[scoops]

In reality, the family is asking for tips or knowledge of what happened to Maura–––not being examined under the microscope. They want anyone with any tidbit knowledge of what happened to her to come forward. They want her face out there, so if anyone who has seen her will hopefully come forward. This is the public help they are interested in, IMO.

No, in reality, the family have gone to the public complaining about the investigation.

 

[Captain_Khan]

A big question for me is what caused Maura to decide to drive to her father's hotel room on the night before she vanished - the trip that lead to the first crash. Was it planned, or was it spur-of-the-moment?I always had the feeling that something happened that night that changed how we should view her actions later.

Also, a question someone here might be able to help with - I know Maura was alleged to have been seen by a local man (Rick Forcier?) on that night. Does anyone know the rough coordinates of where that sighting happened?

EDIT - Just did a little digging and found this, which is alleged to be part of a letter written by FM and sent to NH Governor Benson, as posted by an anonymous commenter on Renner's blog:
"Recently, nearly three (3) months after the accident, a motorist (“Witness&#8221 who was driving west on Route112 at about 8:00 PM on February 9 reported seeing a young person acting furtively heading very fast in an easterly direction at a point about four (4) to five (5) miles away from the scene of the crash. The time line and description of the individual’s appearance and clothing fits perfectly for this person to have been Maura.

This witness lives within just yards of the accident site, but said he had been confused about the exact date and time of that event because the state police had not interviewed him until 10 days had passed. As hard as this is to believe, it is actually true since an investigator helping the family questioned him on Sunday, February 15 and he said the police hadn’t been there to talk to him yet. At this point I appealed directly to the state police to pay attention to rudimentary procedure and turned our notes over to them. This apparently prompted a belated response, which led to the questioning of this witness on Thursday, February 19.”

So I guess that puts the coordinates between 44.108173,-71.866748 and 44.101147,-71.851127 ....Right before Route 112 meets Route 116. That is, if we assume Maura was heading away from the scene of the crash, rather than heading back towards it.

 

[scoops]

A big question for me is what caused Maura to decide to drive to her father's hotel room on the night before she vanished - the trip that lead to the first crash. Was it planned, or was it spur-of-the-moment?I always had the feeling that something happened that night that changed how we should view her actions later.

Also, a question someone here might be able to help with - I know Maura was alleged to have been seen by a local man (Rick Forcier?) on that night. Does anyone know the rough coordinates of where that sighting happened?

EDIT - Just did a little digging and found this, which is alleged to be part of a letter written by FM and sent to NH Governor Benson, as posted by an anonymous commenter on Renner's blog:
"Recently, nearly three (3) months after the accident, a motorist (“Witness&#8221 who was driving west on Route112 at about 8:00 PM on February 9 reported seeing a young person acting furtively heading very fast in an easterly direction at a point about four (4) to five (5) miles away from the scene of the crash. The time line and description of the individual’s appearance and clothing fits perfectly for this person to have been Maura.

This witness lives within just yards of the accident site, but said he had been confused about the exact date and time of that event because the state police had not interviewed him until 10 days had passed. As hard as this is to believe, it is actually true since an investigator helping the family questioned him on Sunday, February 15 and he said the police hadn’t been there to talk to him yet. At this point I appealed directly to the state police to pay attention to rudimentary procedure and turned our notes over to them. This apparently prompted a belated response, which led to the questioning of this witness on Thursday, February 19.”

So I guess that puts the coordinates between 44.108173,-71.866748 and 44.101147,-71.851127 ....Right before Route 112 meets Route 116. That is, if we assume Maura was heading away from the scene of the crash, rather than heading back towards it.

From what I have gathered, it wasn't a spur of the moment decision for Maura to return her dad's car to him that night. At her small dorm get together with a few friends, Maura randomly blurted out on more than one occassion that she wanted to return his car to him that night. One of her friends found that very odd and didn't think it made any sense.

Maura would leave the dorm party telling everyone (the ones that hadn't already passed out) that she was just going back to her room.

 

[OldSteve]

I see activity on James' Blog

He mentions something to the effect of in his speaking with the officer to responded to her crash (the first one that happened with Fred's new car) that she would have likely been cited for failure to control her vehicle if she hadn't have disappeared shortly thereafter.
Now this is coming third party, and no way to verify... but if true, I find it most interesting in that it shows a pattern of behavior; namely, its best to leave the scene of an accident so as not to get cited...
Taking this into consideration, I believe that is what she was trying to do after her Haverhill crash - leave the scent to avoid being charged....
IMO, this rules out motive of suicide at that point...

I find too often in cases the study of a person's past behavior patterns is not looked into.... good examples here are what I mentioned upthread about was she in the habit of being slow to unpack when moving... did she ever run using a flashlight....

 

[Dixie811]

I see activity on James' Blog

He mentions something to the effect of in his speaking with the officer to responded to her crash (the first one that happened with Fred's new car) that she would have likely been cited for failure to control her vehicle if she hadn't have disappeared shortly thereafter.
Now this is coming third party, and no way to verify... but if true, I find it most interesting in that it shows a pattern of behavior; namely, its best to leave the scene of an accident so as not to get cited...
Taking this into consideration, I believe that is what she was trying to do after her Haverhill crash - leave the scent to avoid being charged....
IMO, this rules out motive of suicide at that point...

I find too often in cases the study of a person's past behavior patterns is not looked into.... good examples here are what I mentioned upthread about was she in the habit of being slow to unpack when moving... did she ever run using a flashlight....

Yes, I have heard officers say before (not specifically regarding Maura) that they find it is common for someone who had been drinking and went off the road due to snow or just because they lost control to leave the scene and return to get their car or report the accident the next day when they are sober.

I believe I have seen this mentioned twice in Disappeared episodes, actually. Leah Roberts (who went missing in WA, across the country from Maura's disappearance) and also in Brianna Maitland's episode (missing from VT). Although neither Leah or Brianna is suspected of leaving the scene of their car's accident willingly, I don't believe. Just making the point that according to LE, at least, this is a very common practice for someone trying to avoid charges after an accident and it sounds like they see it quite often.

 

[scoops]

I see activity on James' Blog

He mentions something to the effect of in his speaking with the officer to responded to her crash (the first one that happened with Fred's new car) that she would have likely been cited for failure to control her vehicle if she hadn't have disappeared shortly thereafter.
Now this is coming third party, and no way to verify... but if true, I find it most interesting in that it shows a pattern of behavior; namely, its best to leave the scene of an accident so as not to get cited...
Taking this into consideration, I believe that is what she was trying to do after her Haverhill crash - leave the scent to avoid being charged....
IMO, this rules out motive of suicide at that point...

I find too often in cases the study of a person's past behavior patterns is not looked into.... good examples here are what I mentioned upthread about was she in the habit of being slow to unpack when moving... did she ever run using a flashlight....

Maura didn't leave the scene of the first accident (with her dad's car). She got a ride in fact from the tow truck driver to her dad's hotel after the police officer was done with her.

Police mentioned in the report that the accident was due to driver inattention (insurance purposes). My understanding was Maura was not ticketed.

the officer is referring to her disappearing that following Monday night.

 

[scoops]

speaking about patterns of a person's behavior:

How many alcohol and automobile related accidents had Maura been in prior to that weekend before she went missing?

My guess without looking into her criminal history is that she had NONE.

And yet in the span of 48 hours, she has two alcohol related crashes.

If we are looking at patterns, I would say that is the pattern of someone in emotional distress or its someone having really bad luck all of a sudden.

 

[scoops]

This actually goes against what I believe happened to Maura, but its worth noting because its true if the police reports are accurate.

Both of Maura's car wrecks in the span of 48 hours involved her crashing into something head-on, with the second wreck even having a witness hearing an acceleration right before a boom.

Now, I don't neccesarily believe Maura was trying to wreck herself to death, but two head-on collisions in 48 hours is something to take note of.

 

[KenShabby]

speaking about patterns of a person's behavior:

How many alcohol and automobile related accidents had Maura been in prior to that weekend before she went missing?

My guess without looking into her criminal history is that she had NONE.

And yet in the span of 48 hours, she has two alcohol related crashes.

If we are looking at patterns, I would say that is the pattern of someone in emotional distress or its someone having really bad luck all of a sudden.

Indeed. Maura had (at least) two confirmed car accidents within those last few days. But we don't know with certainty she was drinking during either of the two car accidents, do we? (This relates to one of my pet frustrations about this case: so much of what has become canonical knowledge is really rooted in hear-say and entrenched speculation.)