NH NH - Maura Murray, 21, Haverhill, 9 Feb 2004 - #13

[JamesRenner]

The Glynn bros.

 

[Ava Adore]

Reno, you're one of my favorite types on cases like this. You're very cut and dry and rational, and that's good. You need someone like that as a balance. As mentioned, I tend to agree with a lot of what you said, but still find some behavior strange (on behalf of the Murray's). I love entertaining and discussing others ideas as well because IMO it keeps the case alive and going.

And yes, if you have rationales on the money, you should share!

 

[Laughing]

Bill Rausch is from Ohio I believe. He'd graduated from West Point and was stationed at FT Sill OK at the time.
However I don't know anything about his car buying, which was your question.


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OT: I once ate Thanksgiving dinner in the Officer's Club at Fort Sill. Afterwards all the cousins sat on the cannon for our group picture.

Still curious about Bill Rausch buying a car in Massachusetts, er um perhaps that was the track coach???

:seeya:

 

[armywife210]

OT: I once ate Thanksgiving dinner in the Officer's Club at Fort Sill. Afterwards all the cousins sat on the cannon for our group picture.

Still curious about Bill Rausch buying a car in Massachusetts, er um perhaps that was the track coach???

:seeya:

Been to the O Club many times. Mostly for Balls. We're at FT Sill now, well we live off post. This is our third time being stationed here, it will be (in June) a total of 11 years just at FT Sill. This was my husbands first duty station fresh out of West Point and we're back here on our third go round. We're probably PCSing again this summer.


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[Ava Adore]

I appreciate your posts, Ricochet.

BBM I don't understand what people want from Fred Murray either or why they choose to believe a blogger over Fred Murray's statements. Words and information too often get twisted and spun on the Internet, making it difficult to sort out the facts. For example, I've read more than once that Fred's house was condemned and ready to be foreclosed on. Now I read that Fred might not have even owned the house. Is there a reason to make Fred look bad? It's things like this that muddies the waters and makes this case seem so unnecessarily convoluted.

The truth is ..we don't know what the police know. We don't know if someone came forward and said they saw Maura running down the highway that night or gave her a ride somewhere or if a friend from college told them why she took off from UMass. Or, maybe a resident reported some odd footprints they found in the snow on their property. Just because we don't know, doesn't mean it didn't happen. There's a reason the police aren't talking and why they won't release their reports. Unfortunately, unless Maura is found, we might not ever know much more than we do now. I think most who follow this case closely have good intentions so that shouldn't stop us from discussing it. I was just hoping the Podcast would focus on facts and dispel some of the rumors but that doesn't seem to be their agenda.

I agree that Maura just needed some time away and that she most likely intended to return to school. I also think she might have fled from her car in the darkness to hide or met with foul play. I just don't see her having any reason to run off and start a secret life somewhere but who knows?

All just MHO!

It has never been about making Fred look bad for me. I believe he loves his daughter. But by withholding information, being not totally forthcoming and by banning people from talking about the case in his family, he sets himself up for suspicion (not that he did anything sinister, just that he will be questioned about his statements). As mentioned in previous threads, pretty much every family I've ever seen who's had a missing person in their family has been super honest and open and very involved with anyone who will listen. They want their story heard. They want to keep it alive.

http://www.goodreads.com/author_blog_posts/1946394-scarinza-speaks

When even the police remark that you're acting strangely, I don't think it's fair to assume everyone is making him out to be a bad guy for no reason. He HAS acted strange. Remember the interview with his former son in law?

Renner did a great job on this post:

http://mauramurray.blogspot.com/2015/02/this-is-not-family-looking-for-answers.html?m=1

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[Ava Adore]

This has never been verified and is probably just rumor.

James, can you clarify the bankruptcy statements about Fred? Was that just a misunderstanding?

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[stephsb]

I disagree (respectfully, of course) w. criticism of FM. That's not to say I don't think we should believe everything he says w.o question, but I think a lot of people have forgotten that FM owes us nothing. Someone wrote a great post earlier in the thread that discussed how FM has given an explanation for the 4000, he has given an explanation for the rag in the tail pipe, and that's all he needs to do (tbh he wouldn't even need to do that- he has no obligation to make any statement to the public). Whether we believe his statements or not is on us.

My thoughts on what happened to MM have gone back and forth, but I've always been pretty firm in my belief FM appears unhelpful to the public because at this point he has a pretty good idea of what happened to MM, and where she is. He was the last person to spend significant time w. MM leading up to her disappearance, and they were close. I'll never forget a statement he gave where he describes her as "slumping into her dorm" and sniffling and crying in the car. I think he knew MM wasn't in a good state of mind, hence his immediate reaction to discovering her missing. He was the one who introduced the suicide angle (going up in the mountains to die like an old squaw) he was the one doing interviews w. BR telling MM to just come back, no matter what happened, an interesting statement to make if you believe she's been abducted. Then, he does a complete 180 and comes up with his local dirtbag theory. I think all he wants is to find MM's remains, and he knows the best way to keep LE on the case is by promoting the theory that there is a local dirtbag at large who is a danger to the community- allowing focus to remain in the area, where he believes MM is.



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[Ava Adore]

I disagree (respectfully, of course) w. criticism of FM. That's not to say I don't think we should believe everything he says w.o question, but I think a lot of people have forgotten that FM owes us nothing. Someone wrote a great post earlier in the thread that discussed how FM has given an explanation for the 4000, he has given an explanation for the rag in the tail pipe, and that's all he needs to do (tbh he wouldn't even need to do that- he has no obligation to make any statement to the public). Whether we believe his statements or not is on us.

My thoughts on what happened to MM have gone back and forth, but I've always been pretty firm in my belief FM appears unhelpful to the public because at this point he has a pretty good idea of what happened to MM, and where she is. He was the last person to spend significant time w. MM leading up to her disappearance, and they were close. I'll never forget a statement he gave where he describes her as "slumping into her dorm" and sniffling and crying in the car. I think he knew MM wasn't in a good state of mind, hence his immediate reaction to discovering her missing. He was the one who introduced the suicide angle (going up in the mountains to die like an old squaw) he was the one doing interviews w. BR telling MM to just come back, no matter what happened, an interesting statement to make if you believe she's been abducted. Then, he does a complete 180 and comes up with his local dirtbag theory. I think all he wants is to find MM's remains, and he knows the best way to keep LE on the case is by promoting the theory that there is a local dirtbag at large who is a danger to the community- allowing focus to remain in the area, where he believes MM is.



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No, he doesn't necessarily owe us, but I think he owes law enforcement, and if you click the link I listed above, you'll see they've stated he hasn't been very forthcoming. When your child is missing, you say/do whatever you think will help or what LE says will help. I would tell them anything about my child that I think might help them understand where she was going. If they knew where she was going, maybe they could keep searching. Maybe she made it to her destination and then something sinister happened there. We may never know.

Edit: I do appreciate your angle about the local dirtbag and stirring up interest. That could possibly be the case.

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[Pettibon Junction]

No, he doesn't necessarily owe us, but I think he owes law enforcement, and if you click the link I listed above, you'll see they've stated he hasn't been very forthcoming. When your child is missing, you say/do whatever you think will help or what LE says will help. I would tell them anything about my child that I think might help them understand where she was going. If they knew where she was going, maybe they could keep searching. Maybe she made it to her destination and then something sinister happened there. We may never know.

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Or maybe he figured that if the police found out about her previous (and, I must stress this, MINOR) run-ins with the law and emotional problems, coupled with the fact that she went up to NH voluntarily, they'd treat her like a runaway and wouldn't put as much effort into finding her. Given that precious time was lost the night of the disappearance when law enforcement simply assumed Maura was off sobering up somewhere to avoid a DUI after her accident, this line of thinking is kind of understandable.

 

[JamesRenner]

I don't know about bankruptcy but Fred's name was on the Weymouth house as it fell into foreclosure.

 

[Ava Adore]

Or maybe he figured that if the police found out about her previous (and, I must stress this, MINOR) run-ins with the law and emotional problems, coupled with the fact that she went up to NH voluntarily, they'd treat her like a runaway and wouldn't put as much effort into finding her. Given that precious time was lost the night of the disappearance when law enforcement simply assumed Maura was off sobering up somewhere to avoid a DUI after her accident, this line of thinking is kind of understandable.

If she had emotional problems, the police could be swayed to treat the case differently and still look for her. If there was even the slightest chance that he did actually believe that she was going to commit suicide (like his line about her naked in the mountains), he owed the truth even more so.

But, even disregarding all that, I think at this point he could be more open and they wouldn't treat the case as a runaway.

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[stephsb]

At this point, I can see why LE would be frustrated and view FM as attempting to stonewall them by refusing to give any insight into why she may have been in NH and her state of mind/behavior prior to going missing, but I think his behavior can be explained. When he makes statements like "what she did is irrelevant, she's missing, find her" it leads me to believe he knows exactly why she was there, it was in fact the first thing he told police "she's come here to die like an old squaw" What is important to him is getting her body, and getting closure. In his mind, her actions prior to her disappearing ARE irrelevant- both of his theories, even though they are polar opposites of eachother (dying like a squaw v. local dirtbag) focus LE attention on the area around her crash- where he believes her body is. Of those theories, however, one of them will get more public attention than the other. I also believe that at this point, he is concerned primarily w. protecting her image, because at this point that is all he has.

While some of FM's actions frustrate me, my sympathy for him usually outweighs my frustration. I have never seen him as the diabolical, manipulative liar some have made him out to be over the years. Losing a child is a hell I can't begin to imagine, but not knowing what happened to her, or what you could have done differently to prevent it, has to be one of the worst things that can happen to a parent.

All just my opinion of course.


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[Pettibon Junction]

Besides, whoever writes the first book will always have the benefit of the doubt. Surely you've heard that Montague Druitt was Jack the Ripper, or Beth Short was killed by Arnold Smith on account of her infantile genitals? Or how about the CIA snuffing out Kennedy (both of them), and Arthur Leigh Allen being the Zodiac Killer (with a major crush on Dee Ferrin, no less)? The intervening years and good detective work has proven the bulk that stuff either blatantly false or dubious at best but it doesn't stop us from having to discuss them every time those particular cases are broached. Sadly, without a body or a confession, we'll be forced to similarly entertain the more outlandish claims made by Mr. Renner in his upcoming book.

 

[Ava Adore]

At this point, I can see why LE would be frustrated and view FM as attempting to stonewall them by refusing to give any insight into why she may have been in NH and her state of mind/behavior prior to going missing, but I think his behavior can be explained. When he makes statements like "what she did is irrelevant, she's missing, find her" it leads me to believe he knows exactly why she was there, it was in fact the first thing he told police "she's come here to die like an old squaw" What is important to him is getting her body, and getting closure. In his mind, her actions prior to her disappearing ARE irrelevant- both of his theories, even though they are polar opposites of eachother (dying like a squaw v. local dirtbag) focus LE attention on the area around her crash- where he believes her body is. Of those theories, however, one of them will get more public attention than the other. I also believe that at this point, he is concerned primarily w. protecting her image, because at this point that is all he has.

While some of FM's actions frustrate me, my sympathy for him usually outweighs my frustration. I have never seen him as the diabolical, manipulative liar some have made him out to be over the years. Losing a child is a hell I can't begin to imagine, but not knowing what happened to her, or what you could have done differently to prevent it, has to be one of the worst things that can happen to a parent.

All just my opinion of course.


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This is an excellent post/viewpoint. That is a spot I have really been stuck at, especially if you take into account the supposed first call he made to the police when he first found out about her being gone. I just feel that if this is the truth and he believes it, he shouldn't have gone on Disappeared and painted her differently, "...she was on the deans list. She was getting married." I feel like a father pleading for the help to find his daughter's remains would have invoked sympathy too. But what do I know? I have never lost a family member this way. I could be totally wrong.

Great post.

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[Ava Adore]

Hi Ava Adore,

I was asking a general question in response to Ricochet's post and it was not aimed at anyone. I'm very sorry if I offended you. I'm really just trying to understand.

Not here at WS but other places on the internet, some of the things written about Fred Murray seem kind of harsh. I don't know why Fred doesn't act like those other families. Maybe he's just an odd guy who doesn't trust the Internet and doesn't want strangers discussing his family. That's Fred's choice and his family and Maura's friends all seem to support him because none of them are talking either. They must have their reasons and IMO, it's unnecessary to insinuate that Fred and his family aren't looking for answers when maybe they just aren't doing it publicly. Fred doesn't seem any different to me than most of the other families in this Missing 2000 thread. They all are just waiting for something new to surface.

IDK It's been almost 12 years now so maybe it's time to cut Fred some slack. None of us have walked in his shoes and like Fred himself said, he's a "subplot". I think all Fred wants now is to see the police file information so he has a new direction to search for his daughter. Whatever his reasons, he just doesn't care about engaging the Internet.

http://www.bostonmagazine.com/news/article/2014/01/28/maura-murray/4/

This is all just my opinion and I completely respect that people see things differently from me. No one is right or wrong and we all get to decide what information we find relevant as we exchange ideas. Isn't that what WS is all about? Again, I apologize if anything I've said was offensive to you. That was never my intent. Thank you for the links!

Hey, you didn't offend me at all? Seriously! I promise! Just thought I was chatting.

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[Ava Adore]

No one here has offended me. It's a passionate case with tons of info and different viewpoints.

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[Ricochet]

Apologies in advance.. Some of my writing is very direct and comes across like I'm mad, but I'm not. (Modsnip)

Several things.

The window of opportunity for something to have happened to Maura is much greater than 8 - 10 minutes. The night of the accident she wasn't considered a missing person and there'd be no reason for LE at that time to consider her a missing person. A remedial search would've been done most likely after 8 PM and before 9 PM and the police were gone by 9:30 PM after the car was towed. Since an intensive search wasn't done it would've been easy for Maura evade LE especially since it would've been dark out. That means she had the rest of that night, she wasn't declared a missing person until Tuesday afternoon and a search wasn't done until Wednesday. That's a lot of time for something to occur. I suspect she wandered off got lost and died from exposure. That's my opinion.

I think Fred perceives the police should've acted more aggressively in searching for her, and because they didn't. it created tension between Fred and LE. The fact Fred had to file a suit in order to get information would suggest to me that LE hasn't been very open with their information and an adversarial relationship developed between the two parties. I find both parties at fault but Fred slightly more.

I think people find it odd that Fred had lawyers present when he was interviewed, because it could give the appearance of some sort of guilt. However if there's an adversarial relationship between Fred and LE it makes sense for Fred to have a Lawyer (s) present because it protects his rights, but more importantly LE is going to talk to a Lawyer (who knows the law) differently than someone who doesn't know the law. Also, they would know the questions to ask, as well as, what Fred is entitled to.

The only real issue I have with Fred is his pride. It's because of that I think he's stubborn about the Murray family image and Maura's image which hinders investigation. Because I agree with John Scarinza that it's kind of hard to know where to look when they don't know what might've been troubling her. I guess I'd add to that I think he provided LE with information that may not have been truthful in an attempt to get them to act more urgently and it backfired because it hurt his credibility. I don't think he knows as much as what people thinks he does. I suspect Kate and maybe Sara would have more insight than Fred.

James Renner has been careless and irresponsible with some of his blog posts, especially the one where he referred to Maura as a sociopath. Once the information is out there it's out there and no guarantees people will see the retraction. As a person who has been officially diagnosed with a personality disorder, I can assure you that psychologists are hesitant in labeling/diagnosing anyone with a pd due to the stigma. It takes several sessions with a psychologist and often includes testing ie. MMPI-II before a diagnosis is given. So there's no way looking at a few pieces of information or heresay where one could conclude she has a pd or eating disorder.

James blog "This is Not a Family Looking for Answers" how silly. The fact the Murray family may not handle the situation like the Bobo's, Mihaljevic's or Bish's doesn't mean their not looking for answers. The fact he had to sue to try and get information would suggest to me that he's looking for answers and it also gives an inference what his relationship with LE is like.

He says they don't have an organized online effort, but then says they have an official website. Does it matter that it's not run by an immediate family member? Does that make it less normal or is it only normal if it's run by an immediate family member. Would anyone want their family members reading the types of comments that are directed at the Murray's.

Maura's mother wasn't involved, Maura's mother also had cancer.

Maura's siblings aren't that involved in the searches. Their in their 20's, building a career, trying to live a life, maintain relationships/friendships, and also deal with a missing sister. What would be considered a normal amount of time of involvment in the searches? Do any of us know the Murray's that well to know how much or how little time the Murray's are investing in the searches so we can determine if their spending a normal amount of time or not.

Fred's former son-in-law and two volunteer claim Fred's actions during the searches was all for show. I don't know if I'd trust a former anything, and I'm sure others would argue it wasn't for show so who's right.

They don't release information. How do we know they have information to release when Fred had to sue for information? Why doesn't LE release information? If Fred did release information would people believe him?

The song Kurt did for Maura is open to interpretation and there's a lot people, me included, that don't take the lines in the song to mean she literally ran off to start a new life.

 

[Ava Adore]

^yes, I recall on the Montel show that he stated something to the tune of the police getting there two minutes after she left her car and if they had just driven up the road, they would have found her.

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[Branny]

It's most likely already been done - but has anyone tried to map/calculate based on temperature, possible injuries, etc (Basically all variables of that night) how far she could have gotten on foot?
That would make a search for her remains easier.
If you recall Mariam Makhniashvili (Toronto, Ontario) wasn't found for two and a half almost three years. The original grid search came close to where she was but not quite. Furthermore she was found just off of a busy golf course in downtown Toronto.

 

[Ricochet]

This would be a question for James Renner or anyone else who might know the answer.

I believe it was Sara Alfieri, but possibly Kate, who stated something like "she didn't want to say anything because she didn't want to get Maura in trouble".

In trouble with who?
Her Dad?
Boyfriend?
Police?
UMass?
A combination of the above?

Have the police made her disclose that information? It would seem to me if this is an investigation the police could compel her to.