NH NH - Maura Murray, 21, Haverhill, 9 Feb 2004 - #13

Discussion in '2000's Missing' started by bessie, Nov 18, 2015.

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  1. Caffeine

    Caffeine Active Member

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    Without a doubt, I expect nothing more than Bill to do go with his life. I think my peeve is with the wording of it. With episode 3 in particular, his friend seemed to make it all about him, rather than expressing any empathy to Maura. I understand he's married now but to me a more respectful response would be something like "It saddens me that she's still missing and I wish for closure for her family."

    Let's keep in mind the Murrays don't get there luxury of just going on with their lives here...
     
  2. teeandcee

    teeandcee Well-Known Member

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    I know it's happened that bodies are found in previously searched areas, but I still find it so hard to comprehend. I expect Fred himself has searched every inch of the woods. I keep going back and forth whether she was taken or succumbed to the elements. I wonder if they took a cadaver dog out in the woods if it would turn up anything?
     
  3. Wisdom

    Wisdom Active Member

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    One thing stood out to me during this episode that I didn’t notice before. When 911 called the Atwood’s back, which was still before police arrived on scene, the wife mentioned Butch stopped by the accident but “didn’t know where the female was”. What an odd statement considering Maura was there at the accident scene when Butch talked to her and he supposedly never saw her walk away. Why would they assume she was gone before the police arrived and that was confirmed? Am I not understanding this clearly??
     
  4. bradfordsleuth

    bradfordsleuth Well-Known Member

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    Forgive me if this has been mentioned, but have any locals been there at night time in February and tried to 're-create' the scene?
    What direction would she have instinctively gone in while it was dark out? Is there an opening in the trees with a foot path towards the river?
    Where are you Maura???
     
  5. armywife210

    armywife210 Active Member

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    When we lived in Germany I would start doing the same thing about two weeks before upcoming cruises. If you can't hit a local bank, you hit ATMs. He probably just got out as much as he was able to in the amount of time he had and hoped it would be enough. To me it makes sense because I, myself, have done it.


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  6. singularity

    singularity New Member

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    "Might make good TV"

    Yep....that's it in a nutshell. Entertainment.

    The way crime stories are being presented is changing in our current culture. I don't like it. If they're "barely touching the actual known facts", it's a sign to stop watching/listening to that show and giving them attention.

    Money talks. Always has, always will. if they notice the amount of viewers going down/less clicks on their site, they'll take a different approach.


    This isn't the only case like this. One case I've always been interested in is the Springfield Three. I lived in the Joplin-Neosho area when it happened. Even though I am interested in it, it's not a case I like to particularly follow. Why? Because it always has to revolve around serial killers or cop conspiracies which I consider to be pure, unfiltered hogwash. The chances of them being killed by a serial killer or a cop are bordering on nil.....but people love discussing/reading serial killer/cop conspiracy theories so that is what gets pushed. if you'll notice, a LOT of cases go in that direction now and its because it adds more drama/suspense to the stories. So when a podcast/TV show cover a case now, they naturally go in this direction.
     
  7. Pettibon Junction

    Pettibon Junction Active Member

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    What you're talking about is something I like to call the Twin Peaks approach to true crime: treat it as entertainment, with lots of extraneous details and side stories, make it cult-like and throw in all sorts of twists and turns, imply that everyone's a suspect and focus hard on any possible "secret life" the victim may have had while sexualizing and objectifying her all the while, then throw your hands up at the end of it all, as if to say "we'll never know" because the journey is more important than a proper solution.

    In short, it's a bunch of BS style over substance that obscures the fact that when women go missing, more often than not, it's because some man made it happen. Whatever happened to Maura, I'm certain it's way, way simpler than any eight-part miniseries, ongoing podcast, the online ranting and ravings of a paranoid carnival barker, or thinly-disguised novel by a proud, self-proclaimed sociopath would have us believe.
     
  8. italianangel2411

    italianangel2411 Well-Known Member

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    I finally watched the most recent episode from Saturday night, last night and rewatched it again this morning.

    These are my thoughts:
    Fred, her dad, seemed very distraught over Maury being missing. I think everything he said was on point for a father that loves his daughter that went missing and he is unaware of her whereabouts to date. I think he is presuming that she is dead. I understand his anger for her asking him that disgusting allegation about sexual molestation. She was not a teenager or young child, being 21 years old in my opinion is too old to even suggest sexual molestation. I am not sure where this even came from as I was unaware of such an allegation prior to the show. I feel bad for him that they even mentioned that. I think he handled himself very well for having to deal with that.

    I find a few things worth noting:
    -Kate won't speak out
    -Bill won't speak out
    -The police won't speak out

    I always feel like the people that refuse to help find a loved one or won't voluntarily help out with the investigation should be looked at more.

    1. Was there confirmation of Bill's whereabouts that day and the next day? I realize he was far away as indicated on the show, but that does not mean that Bill and Maura decided to get away together and not tell anyone. Perhaps he was the one in the car smoking the cigarette. Their relationship was not all glitter and rainbows. So it is possible they decided to get away together and something happened.
    2. Why won't Kate volunteer to help out with her missing friend? If one of my friends went missing I would do anything to help. Does Kate know more than anyone thinks? Did Kate go away with Maura this weekend? Could she have been driving behind Maura?
    3. The police not wanting to share information. Wasn't there a discussion about the police being vital in this and perhaps keeping secretive information? Someone on the police could have taken Maura?

    My next theory is perhaps Butch Atwood took Maura. I remember a few years ago thinking that he was the last one stated to see Maura and I thought maybe he kidnapped her. I realize he died in 2009, but they did mention a lot of people have skeletons and secrets up in that crash site area. They stated last night that he had discrepancies with his story as well. So, this worries me that he was involved in her disappearance.

    The rag in the tail pipe is so odd. I did not hear anything on this episode that Fred taught Maura to do this. I feel like its mostly done to people that were abducted or that someone wanted to kill themselves or do something to the car to cause her to have car issues.

    At this point, I think the following:
    1. Maura hurt herself and is around the crash site and has not been found yet
    2. Someone (one of the neighbors) living around the crash site took Maura and harmed her (either Butch Atwood, the police, or someone else in that area)
    3. Bill harmed her if they were together that night

    I lean more towards number 1 but believe that number 2 is right behind number 1 at this point. I have a hard time believing a random person driving by picked her up and harmed her.

    If she is in the area, why haven't anyone found her remains yet? I realize its a large area, but there were a lot of searches. How many times has a cadaver dog been to the crash site? Can they take a cadaver dog out there now, all these years later to see if the dog finds anything to leads to the remains? I think this is worth the money and time at this point if they do anything right now to help find Maura. It would be a good idea for the Oxygen show to do this in my opinion, but I don't think it will happen in this series.

    I am skeptical with the Oxygen series at this point after what happened with the Natalee Holloway case and now all this drama in this case being brought up, like sensationalizing to bring money into the network and for ratings. At the end of the day I believe Dave in Natalee's caes and Fred in Maura's case will do anything to find their missing daughters, not realizing that perhaps Oxygen has their own agenda and they have different priorities in regards to them both being missing.
     
  9. italianangel2411

    italianangel2411 Well-Known Member

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    I absolutely agree with you!
     
  10. U2forever

    U2forever Blessed are the liars For the truth can be awkward

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    Pettibon Junction, I have never seen Twin Peaks but your post is awesome and I really don't need to be familiar with this show to understand exactly what you mean.
    I have been feeling the same way about this show also.

    Strictly entertainment and I'm guessing the same folks who watch and BELIEVE reality shows are reality and not scripted/fake, will believe this series.
    JMO


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  11. margol29

    margol29 Member

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    That also struck me as a very odd thing for the wife to say. I wonder if that was ever followed up. As far as they knew, MM would still be waiting at the car for AAA to show up. And to call her "the female" is also odd. It strikes me as either depersonalizing MM or that there was a male there also. This is all my own opinion.
     
  12. italianangel2411

    italianangel2411 Well-Known Member

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    I agree, which is why I consider perhaps Atwood having something to do with her disappearance
     
  13. Kittycat01

    Kittycat01 Member

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    I respect everyone's opinion and thoughts but I don't believe Atwood had anything to do with Maura's disappearance. I can't imagine abducting Maura and then going home and calling the police. And telling your wife about the accident? Why draw attention to yourself? If he were doing something nefarious wouldn't it just be easier to grab her and not say anything? My opinion only.
     
  14. The Farm

    The Farm Well-Known Member

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    I also do not believe Atwood had anything to do with whatever happened to Maura and wonder if she had got in that big yellow bus and went to his home and let him call the police (after all she was in a wreck) that we would not be having this conversation now.
     
  15. Caffeine

    Caffeine Active Member

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    Being the last person to speak to Maura it draws some suspicion naturally but Atwood surely would have a lot of things working against him as a suspect.

    He was an older guy, his health wasn't great and he was quite overweight. To put his health in perspective, he died just 5 years after in 2009.

    Also, his wife and mother lived at his house as well.

    At least physically speaking I don't think he was truly capable of something like this, especially considering he'd be hiding his nefarious actions from the 2 others who lived with him.

    I will say that despite all this, there is a bit of lingering doubt with him (and all of the witnesses, honestly) that perhaps he he wasn't totally forthcoming with everything he knew. Or maybe he was just a terrible witness. It should be noted that in later years he moved to Florida. The PI for the Murray family was not totally convinced of his account and even traveled to FL to attempt to speak further with him.
     
  16. armywife210

    armywife210 Active Member

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    OMG, I agree, especially the vey last part. Let's put it out there again for emphasis.

    "or thinly-disguised novel by a proud, self-proclaimed sociopath would have us believe"...alas, the truth is spoken.


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  17. snowleopard

    snowleopard Well-Known Member

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    Personally, I've not been certain about much in this case, but I'm pretty certain neither Atwood nor Bill had anything to do with Maura's disappearance. I concur with Caffeine's reasons on Butch, and I think Bill's alibi with the Army is pretty tight. Does anyone else feel that the series is taking everyone to readily at their word? Maggie speaks with one of Maura's classmate who says the pregnancy talk was related to study material and she considers that the last word, pregnancy ruled out? And perhaps I'm too old and cynical, but I didn't find Fred's denial of 'inappropriateness' with Maura convincing, yet it is immediately accepted by the investigators. I don't necessary believe the contrary on either of those issues, but I think the show needs a bit more skepticism. I'm not really sold on Renner or his theory, but I do appreciate his dose of cynicism, I think it's a necessary investigation tool. If the show can get Kate or Sara do to a meaningful interview, I'll be impressed, but so far I'm kind of disappointed. Sorry to be Debbie Downer.
     
  18. armywife210

    armywife210 Active Member

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    There is NO WAY, in a very warm place, that Bill was there to harm her. One just does not simply fail to show up for work in the Army, especially at the rank he held at the time. Even if a soldier is sicker than Cujo, they call their superior, then the pull their butt to sick call...the doctor. There is paperwork, oh the paperwork. What you are talking about warrants immediate AWOL action, there is no possible way it would go unnoticed.


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  19. Pettibon Junction

    Pettibon Junction Active Member

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    Having not seen the most recent episode (I plan to watch either tonight or tomorrow), I'll refrain from commenting on it specifically, though I will say that I like what little I've seen so far: female voices have been missing from the public discussion of this case and I find Maggie Freleng refreshing and hope that the docuseries will, ultimately, serve as a decent primer/intro to the case and maybe provide a bit of necessary course-correction.

    That said, I take issue with the sad reality that to talk about Maura Murray, one must also talk about James Renner and John Smith, the former having written the first and, to date, only book covering her story and the latter running the show online at this point as well as, apparently, officially speaking for the family of the missing. Both of them have done some research and I won't begrudge them those hours they spent trying to figure this out, but they're also very much attention-seekers and very much attached to their pet theories, neither of which is very plausible. They have inserted themselves, enmeshed themselves in this case that we can't talk about it without first acknowledging them in some way, and Oxygen of course couldn't make their documentary without including them. And so their ideas (wrongheaded, in my opinion) are amplified further, as they were on the podcast, where they've gone largely unchallenged.

    Every high-profile case has one or two people like this, trotting out their theories in a high-profile fashion and, in their confidence that their solution can be the only possible answer, shut down discussion. Alan Moore, who meticulously researched Jack the Ripper for his graphic novel 'From Hell' called them gull-catchers, evoking the image of a gaggle of men with butterfly nets, chasing birds around a beach and in the process, replacing footprints representing actual clues with their own. It's an apt metaphor for the obfuscating effect these kinds of people have when they try to fit the evidence to a narrative rather than the other way around. What's worse, this could even have a chilling effect on new witnesses coming forward. If the public believes a case is solved, then they won't remain vigilant and when a person is still missing and those who knew them left without answers, this is problematic, to say the least.

    Personally, I don't have a strong theory that I'm incredibly attached to in this case, but there are scenarios that I believe more likely than others. When a young woman goes missing, it's almost always because a man intervened to engineer it. To deny that this could have possibly happened and to mock it outright is to dismiss the reality that women live with every single day, whether on crowded university campuses or sparsely populated mountain towns. And to me, that's not just ignorant but actively offensive.

    So what's most likely in this case? I'd say either death by misadventure (i.e., accidental drowning or a slip-and-fall incident in the isolated woodlands east of the crash site, a la Misty Upham or any number of young men who turn up dead in the water after a night of heavy drinking) or manslaughter/homicide (i.e., someone hit her with their vehicle or picked her up/let her in to their home and murdered her). Sadly, what's also most likely is that we'll never know for sure but in terms of the latter scenario, I'll say this: there ARE suspects, police HAVE interviewed them, and most of the locals believe a crime was committed and many of them have their own suspicions as to who did it.
     
  20. dally_doodle

    dally_doodle Active Member

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    There’s chatter on reddit...remains just found on rte 112 in woodstock, NH while construction workers were digging. This is 20 minutes from crash site. Constant refreshing to see when local news posts an article.
     
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