NH NH - Maura Murray, 21, Haverhill, 9 Feb 2004 - #14

[sony12]

JaeJae is right. Why are you on a site like Websleuths of all places lecturing people on what they should and shouldn't do in regards to true crime? It's frankly none of your business what people do with their own time, and you've been doing this exact thing throughout this thread and possibly earlier ones. I haven't touched most of the Maura Murray media, haven't watched a single episode of Missing Maura Murray or read Renner's book but it's not my concern what others do. It's against the TOS here to tell others what to do and how to post.

Also the guy that made that video is in contact with the family and has been to the crash site and general area several times so he is more worth listening to than 99% of this thread including you. He's not going to solve the case i don't think JaeJae was suggesting that but he could be helpful for beginners to the case in summarizing the facts and describing the general area.

I never said she has to do this or that. I said that True Crime can lead to a bit of an unhealthy obsession and it can be good to step away from it once in a while. JaeJae has posted links to podcasters quite a bit in here so I decided to bring it up. And sorry but the people in videos like that are really no different than people in this forum. And most of the time their extent of communication with victims families consist of no more than a couple emails and maybe they talked to them once when they went to one of the tributes. And many of those people try to come off as being involved in the case.

If you want to believe they are more important than that then we will just have to agree to disagree.

 

[Nadal]

I never said she has to do this or that. I said that True Crime can lead to a bit of an unhealthy obsession and it can be good to step away from it once in a while. JaeJae has posted links to podcasters quite a bit in here so I decided to bring it up. And sorry but the people in videos like that are really no different than people in this forum. And most of the time their extent of communication with victims families consist of no more than a couple emails and maybe they talked to them once when they went to one of the tributes. And many of those people try to come off as being involved in the case.

If you want to believe they are more important than that then we will just have to agree to disagree.

I don't believe he is important, i explained why his videos can be useful to newcomers to the case. Regardless of how much he's talked to the family it's more than 99% of this forum, his youtube channel and facebook page are run with the blessing of the family so they would likely give him any updates to post if they want to get the word out so yes he's a useful source of information. He's also been to the area so is useful in giving those who haven't a better idea of what it's like. I'm not interested in his videos personally but there's nothing wrong with others being interested.

I don't know why you're reading a thread on Websleuths if you're only interested in listening to people who are important to the case because that doesn't describe anyone here.

 

[jaejae]

[

I never said she has to do this or that. I said that True Crime can lead to a bit of an unhealthy obsession and it can be good to step away from it once in a while. JaeJae has posted links to podcasters quite a bit in here so I decided to bring it up. And sorry but the people in videos like that are really no different than people in this forum. And most of the time their extent of communication with victims families consist of no more than a couple emails and maybe they talked to them once when they went to one of the tributes. And many of those people try to come off as being involved in the case.

If you want to believe they are more important than that then we will just have to agree to disagree.

Thanks for the post. I am a male Sumatran Tiger. The point I was making is everyone has a right to make a video and have an opinion on a case and who knows they might be right. Whose to say my or your opinions or input is better than theirs. Like Nadal said I think being to the crash site and speaking to the victims mean something and I have never done either of these things. I personally do not rate James Renner's opinions on this case and I say that because I think him being there at odds with the family must be infuriating for his family but he has a right to his opinion. I find this conversation interesting for instance and listening to your opinion and something about the case may come from it.

 

[sony12]

[


Thanks for the post. I am a male Sumatran Tiger. The point I was making is everyone has a right to make a video and have an opinion on a case and who knows they might be right. Whose to say my or your opinions or input is better than theirs. Like Nadal said I think being to the crash site and speaking to the victims mean something and I have never done either of these things. I personally do not rate James Renner's opinions on this case and I say that because I think him being there at odds with the family must be infuriating for his family but he has a right to his opinion. I find this conversation interesting for instance and listening to your opinion and something about the case may come from it.

To be honest even though James Renner can be a bit of a controversial figure because he does say things that don't make Maura or her family look the best at times. I do however find a lot of his theories to be a lot more probable than most anything else out there. Fred Murray has been chasing around a lot of rabbit holes and he has had a habit of running after rumors and speculation that police didn't really take seriously and then getting upset when police didn't take it seriously. Infact many of the main theories about this case came about because of Fred's rabbit holes.

 

[jaejae]

To be honest even though James Renner can be a bit of a controversial figure because he does say things that don't make Maura or her family look the best at times. I do however find a lot of his theories to be a lot more probable than most anything else out there. Fred Murray has been chasing around a lot of rabbit holes and he has had a habit of running after rumors and speculation that police didn't really take seriously and then getting upset when police didn't take it seriously. Infact many of the main theories about this case came about because of Fred's rabbit holes.

As I say thanks for the input. I agree with you that this case has many rabbit holes the only thing I will say is I doubt if Fred Murray wanted to be investigating the disappearance of his daughter and going down any rabbit holes and would rather had her in his life since that night she crashed the car. I still find his search for his daughter a very moving one and shows his great devotion to her. This is not to be meant as any criticism but my experience is that victims relatives in cases are not the greatest investigators of their own loved ones cases and why would they be because they did not ask to be the awful position they are but I am always impressed by the devotion and real love they have for their relative. One thing I will say about Fred Murray is like his daughter he seems pretty intelligent and this to me shows in his realism about the fact his daughter was very likely a victim of foul play. Cheers.

 

[Nadal]

To be honest even though James Renner can be a bit of a controversial figure because he does say things that don't make Maura or her family look the best at times. I do however find a lot of his theories to be a lot more probable than most anything else out there. Fred Murray has been chasing around a lot of rabbit holes and he has had a habit of running after rumors and speculation that police didn't really take seriously and then getting upset when police didn't take it seriously. Infact many of the main theories about this case came about because of Fred's rabbit holes.

And Renner doesn't have a habit of chasing rumours and rabbit holes? Many of the theories came about because of Renner's rabbit holes including tandem drivers, her being in Canada, at Star Wars conventions, her friends killing her or helping her escape, LE involvement in her death, Rausch's involvement in her death, etc, etc.

 

[AgeofAquaruis]

Maura where are you???? I hope this case this solved soon.

 

[sony12]

And Renner doesn't have a habit of chasing rumours and rabbit holes? Many of the theories came about because of Renner's rabbit holes including tandem drivers, her being in Canada, at Star Wars conventions, her friends killing her or helping her escape, LE involvement in her death, Rausch's involvement in her death, etc, etc.

Considering that the majority of murders that happen are caused by the people that knew the victims those would all be probable outcomes and the fact that Maura's personal life was a little shady it would make some of those even more probable. Bill Rausch is involved in legal trouble right now and has had a history of being abusive towards women so that would hardly be considered a rabbit hole. And as far as the Star Wars convention that is virtually the only concrete image we have of someone that looks extremely similar to Maura.

And Renner hasn't insisted that police chase down his theories like Fred Murray has. THe whole A-Frame house thing came into the picture because of him and the dig that happened during the past year was done because of one of Fred's rumors he was listening to.

 

[sony12]

As I say thanks for the input. I agree with you that this case has many rabbit holes the only thing I will say is I doubt if Fred Murray wanted to be investigating the disappearance of his daughter and going down any rabbit holes and would rather had her in his life since that night she crashed the car. I still find his search for his daughter a very moving one and shows his great devotion to her. This is not to be meant as any criticism but my experience is that victims relatives in cases are not the greatest investigators of their own loved ones cases and why would they be because they did not ask to be the awful position they are but I am always impressed by the devotion and real love they have for their relative. One thing I will say about Fred Murray is like his daughter he seems pretty intelligent and this to me shows in his realism about the fact his daughter was very likely a victim of foul play. Cheers.

I agree that family members aren't the best investigators. A lot of them do start blaming police as well if they don't find answers to the mystery. Unfortunately though after this last dig I'm not sure police are going to spend much time on Fred's ideas because none of them have ever amounted to anything

 

[Nadal]

Considering that the majority of murders that happen are caused by the people that knew the victims those would all be probable outcomes and the fact that Maura's personal life was a little shady it would make some of those even more probable. Bill Rausch is involved in legal trouble right now and has had a history of being abusive towards women so that would hardly be considered a rabbit hole. And as far as the Star Wars convention that is virtually the only concrete image we have of someone that looks extremely similar to Maura.

And Renner hasn't insisted that police chase down his theories like Fred Murray has. THe whole A-Frame house thing came into the picture because of him and the dig that happened during the past year was done because of one of Fred's rumors he was listening to.

How could her being alive in Canada or at Star Wars conventions and her being killed by those close to her both be simultaneously probable outcomes? Seems like Renner can say whatever he wants and you'll defend him but Maura's actual family have to keep their mouths shut. All of her family have been ruled out as suspects, i know what's happened with Rausch he sounds like a piece of sh.. but he was in Oklahoma when Maura went missing and has been cleared by LE. These are rabbit holes that Renner is needlessly going down yet you praise him and admonish her father for doing the same? Maura being killed by a local which is Fred's main theory and always has been is much more probable in this case than her still being alive which Renner has had several different variations of as theories.

Yes all Renner has done is harassed and accused everyone even tangentially related to the case because he threw a big tantrum due to them all refusing to speak to him, who could blame them considering his conduct? He has called Maura a sociopath despite never meeting her and had to backpedal and apologize after an expert pointed out how clueless that assertion was and everyone was laughing at him.

Fred is an old man, his daughter went missing 15 years ago he's clearly desperate for answers before he passes away, the A Frame house was wrong but at least it brought attention to the case there doesn't seem to be any movement on the case otherwise. He was wrong but it was understandable why he'd push so hard to find his daughter, Renner on the otherhand decided to involve himself in the case for monetary reasons clearly and he's the one you find commendable?

 

[sony12]

How could her being alive in Canada or at Star Wars conventions and her being killed by those close to her both be simultaneously probable outcomes? Seems like Renner can say whatever he wants and you'll defend him but Maura's actual family have to keep their mouths shut. All of her family have been ruled out as suspects, i know what's happened with Rausch he sounds like a piece of sh.. but he was in Oklahoma when Maura went missing and has been cleared by LE. These are rabbit holes that Renner is needlessly going down yet you praise him and admonish her father for doing the same? Maura being killed by a local which is Fred's main theory and always has been is much more probable in this case than her still being alive which Renner has had several different variations of as theories.

Yes all Renner has done is harassed and accused everyone even tangentially related to the case because he threw a big tantrum due to them all refusing to speak to him, who could blame them considering his conduct? He has called Maura a sociopath despite never meeting her and had to backpedal and apologize after an expert pointed out how clueless that assertion was and everyone was laughing at him.

Fred is an old man, his daughter went missing 15 years ago he's clearly desperate for answers before he passes away, the A Frame house was wrong but at least it brought attention to the case there doesn't seem to be any movement on the case otherwise. He was wrong but it was understandable why he'd push so hard to find his daughter, Renner on the otherhand decided to involve himself in the case for monetary reasons clearly and he's the one you find commendable?

Where are you getting the idea that all of her family has been ruled out? Last I have heard is that no one has been ruled out because there is virtually no evidence to this case at all to make anyone a suspect or a non-suspect. It's a case that virtually anything could end up being the answer from her boyfriend being involved in her disappearance (or some other guy she may have been sleeping with) to some random stranger finding her to her dying drunk in the woods from hypothermia.

Where did you hear that the family has been ruled out?

 

[PezCandy]

@jaejae Connecticut River Killer?
I’ve never heard of that link, could very well may be tho.

 

[jaejae]

I agree that family members aren't the best investigators. A lot of them do start blaming police as well if they don't find answers to the mystery. Unfortunately though after this last dig I'm not sure police are going to spend much time on Fred's ideas because none of them have ever amounted to anything

I actually feel sympathy for Fred and take no pleasure seeing him and his family struggling to find answers.

 

[jaejae]

Considering that the majority of murders that happen are caused by the people that knew the victims those would all be probable outcomes and the fact that Maura's personal life was a little shady it would make some of those even more probable. Bill Rausch is involved in legal trouble right now and has had a history of being abusive towards women so that would hardly be considered a rabbit hole. And as far as the Star Wars convention that is virtually the only concrete image we have of someone that looks extremely similar to Maura.

And Renner hasn't insisted that police chase down his theories like Fred Murray has. THe whole A-Frame house thing came into the picture because of him and the dig that happened during the past year was done because of one of Fred's rumors he was listening to.

Thanks for the information. Just want to make the point that Fred Murray's daughter is missing and LE have to listen to him. In my opinion James Renner is a self proclaimed expert in the case whose expertise has only come because he has looked at the case and hung around for a long time.

 

[jaejae]

@jaejae Connecticut River Killer?
I’ve never heard of that link, could very well may be tho.

Thanks for the interest. Here is a page that mentions both cases:

3 Disturbing Unsolved Mysteries In New Hampshire That Will Leave You Baffled

 

[ACG2x]

Way late to the fray on this one but since the anniversary of MM disappearing just happened it renewed a review of the case. This is a strange one at first glance but when you read deeper into it, I think you can sadly conclude there are really only a few possible outcomes for MM listed in the order of likeliness:

1) - Tried to run away since she wrecked her second car in a week and was driving impaired and succumbed to the elements
2) - Hitchhiked or was picked up by someone and it went very bad
3) - Went into the mountains surrounding the area she crashed as a form of suicide/self-punishment for the car wrecks, alcohol abuse, depression and general circumstances surrounding her life

#1 seems most likely. She was observed leaving the scene of the accident on foot and was allegedly spotted about 4-5 miles from the scene around 90 minutes after it happened which matches with approximately how fast a human can walk when you factor in the elements and what she was wearing. I get the sense that she refused help from the bus driver because she knew she was impaired and would be in a heap of trouble because the police would certainly administer field sobriety tests given the state of the vehicle with alcohol strewn about in it.

In this scenario, she had impaired judgement to begin with and panicked and ran. Reports were she was having relationship problems as well so perhaps she wanted to just 'get away' from everything. It's possible she felt like she again failed everyone around her and saw herself as the problem so if she just left, everyone's lives would be better off. Given the area she was in and lack of winter clothes she was wearing, it's very possible she just wandered off or even got lost and eventually died from exposure. A bit strange that if this occurred they have never found a body but it was a heavily wooded area so elements, animals, etc. could have removed traces.

If it was #2, I don't think it was a serial killer or someone who planned it. Best guess would be that she accepted a ride from someone who decided that a form of 'payment' was needed (aka a sexual favor) or the original intent was to just give her a ride but over the course of that motives changed. Perhaps the person tried to advance themselves, MM refused then they panicked.

#3 is almost an offshoot of #1 but just means that she had the intention of dying after she ran off which I am not sure I believe.

Either way, while I would be elated if some of these MM sightings could be confirmed and she actually was alive and just ran away from her life, I sadly don't think that's the case. Can't see any realistic scenario where MM is still with us. Really hope Fred and family get closure soon.

 

[Littlemouse479]

Hi there, pretty new to Websleuths but not to the MM case. I’ve been skimming through the threads getting familiar with some of the theories but I’d love clarification on some things.

1) Wasn’t all of the alcohol she purchased left behind in the car? I remember hearing there was spilled wine but was the box left? And the bottles?
Whether she left on foot or was picked up, if she was ditching her car because she’d been drinking and didn’t want to be confronted by cops, wouldn’t she try to get rid of the evidence in the car?

2) There was discussion of the possibility that this accident was somehow staged.... I saw someone suggest she ditched the car to explain damage from a previous accident? What would the purpose be? Seems it would be much easier to ditch a car somewhere more remote. She got the accident report form for her father’s car right?

3) I understand there are rumors and theories surrounding the dorm room “party” she attended - has anyone ever spoken on the record about it? Is it generally understood to be a small gathering and she acted normal?

4) Was the track coach cleared?

5) For those who are suspicious of Bill, I can see why with his current record. What if Maura’s friends knew she was trying to lay low and he did find out (maybe from one of them) where she was going, and was able to track her down after she was reported missing . Wouldn’t a friend come forward with that information once they realized she was actually missing?

6) I saw mention of a possible sighting at a gas station or grocery store where she was said to be with two other females. Where and when was this?

I think that’s all for now. Just trying to gather my thoughts.

 

[Criminal Justice mom]

Thanks for the information. I agree there are a lot of people talking about the case but I did not think it was the worst video. People do seem to be going around a little in circles and that is unfortunate for her family. Nasty as it sounds until her body is found it may be difficult to get definitive answers. What I can tell her family is who the Connecticut River Valley Killer was and that he was active until 2010. Sometimes I seem to struggle to get the message over in this case and others but the odds are stacked against me. Cheers.

I'm from the area where many of the nurses were found and have my own theory about who the CTRV killer is. I'm wondering if we area!?

 

[jaejae]

I'm from the area where many of the nurses were found and have my own theory about who the CTRV killer is. I'm wondering if we area!?

I think the Connecticut River Killer was operating on and off throughout New England up to 2010 and therefore he can be a suspect in Maura's case and the Brianna Maitland case. At the moment Maura's case seems to be stuck in a permanent cycle of Podcasts and internet blogs and videos unfortunately for her family. Here is a recent Podcast episode:

 

[tigerteeth]

I think the Connecticut River Killer was operating on and off throughout New England up to 2010 and therefore he can be a suspect in Maura's case and the Brianna Maitland case. At the moment Maura's case seems to be stuck in a permanent cycle of Podcasts and internet blogs and videos unfortunately for her family. Here is a recent Podcast episode:

I think the fact that people keep awareness of the case alive 15 years later when there’s seemingly no new info is great. The alternative is people being silent and forgetting. Much of her family and friends have participated in interviews, podcasts, etc. even Fred through another person.