NH NH - Maura Murray, 21, Haverhill, 9 Feb 2004 - # 9

Status
Not open for further replies.

nitram

New Member
Joined
Nov 29, 2011
Messages
13
Reaction score
3
Hmm..looking by air could they really see footprints from the side of a road then perhaps only a short distance into the trees? Would the snow really be so uniform and pristine that they could see from a helicopter that there were no tracks, even several miles perhaps, down the road? I could see if they were looking for a person from the helicopter but not footprints. Just thinking out loud here.



That's what I was thinking because I was under the impression that the showbanks on the sides of the road were fairly tall.



John Scarinza was involved in investigating this case and Renner interviewed him. There are some details concerning the helicopter search in a posting from January 8 2012.
 

OldSteve

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 4, 2011
Messages
4,946
Reaction score
115
Supposedly they saw moose tracks, but no human tracks were seen walking into the woods from the road. I don't know how far and wide they searched, but I think it was possible she went up a private driveway then into the woods from there. This is just a possibility--not a fact.

There that river (The Wild something or other) close by and Scoops had some photo(s) of it IIRC and though a long shot, it is possible she might have thought the snow covered ice was a field and fell through the ice ....
 

NHwoodsman

Member
Joined
Jun 12, 2010
Messages
40
Reaction score
9
Having followed this off and on for years I think this is likely a tragic set of events. Maura obviously had plans, she looked for a place to stay, found none and to the knowledge of investigators went north with no booked lodging. She didn't drain her account though she had little, she took some of her studies, so suicide doesn't seem likely despite Fred's comment of the Squaw walk and climbing to a mountaintop to drink and die. I do feel Fred knew more about Maura's emotional state than he has ever been forthcoming with due to the " Squaw walk" comment.
I think its safe to say Maura was likely under a lot of stress and I think her whole idea was to take a break and take account of her life. Maura had been in an accident a few days before leaving and did substantial damage to Fred's new car, it appears alcohol may have been involved though she wasn't charged. Now Maura is in Swiftwater and has what appears to be a second alcohol related accident, Maura panics and flees the scene, not uncommon.
The search doesn't begin until a couple days later, what I believe is error number one, they used a glove that may not have been worn by Maura as a reference for the dog. Problem number two, they use an air scent dog and not a ground scent dog. Air currents have diluted the trail as well as contamination from numerous sources. No one saw a car stop and pick her up and there were houses in the immediate area.
Error three, they limited the search and focused mainly on the direction the car had come from, toward rt 302 and a couple roads off rt 112.
A witness came forward some weeks later and claimed to have seen what appeared to be Maura about 7 miles east of the accident scene and the subject went out of their way to avoid being seen said to have ducked out of sight when his lights caught who ever it was. This is a desolate road, and at this time of year no one is going to be walking it for the fun of it.
Maura had no cell reception, this is a vast cell dead zone. Maura had been drinking and took the alcohol with her which show's intent to consume. Lets assume Maura is now in a highly charged emotional state, 2 accidents days apart, she likely felt guilt about wrecking Dads car, feels like a loser and now has accident number two. Maura it seems may have also had other emotional baggage before all this.
Its cold, she's not properly dressed for the elements, she may have been running which promotes sweat, her alcohol content though unknown isn't helping the situation. This is a perfect recipe for hypothermia which cause's one to turn delusional and death isn't far.
In a delusional state of hypothermia people do bizarre things, like strip down though freezing, and wander off. Maura may have gone to a higher point to try to get phone reception and twisted an ankle or even broke a leg and perished.
This is desolate, extremely thick in vegetation and most of these woods are untraveled by man. If Maura did perish out there the real shock would be that she was found! I feel 75% or more, the case is she sadly perished of her own doing brought on by a highly charged state of emotion. When people are emotionally charged they do not think rationally, add alcohol and you easily have disaster. Maura's mother was ill and died, I find it hard to believe if Maura was alive and well she would let friends and family suffer all these years and not say goodbye to her mother.
 

McSpy

Well-Known Member
Joined
Mar 20, 2010
Messages
10,605
Reaction score
518
Having followed this off and on for years I think this is likely a tragic set of events. Maura obviously had plans, she looked for a place to stay, found none and to the knowledge of investigators went north with no booked lodging. She didn't drain her account though she had little, she took some of her studies, so suicide doesn't seem likely despite Fred's comment of the Squaw walk and climbing to a mountaintop to drink and die. I do feel Fred knew more about Maura's emotional state than he has ever been forthcoming with due to the " Squaw walk" comment.
I think its safe to say Maura was likely under a lot of stress and I think her whole idea was to take a break and take account of her life. Maura had been in an accident a few days before leaving and did substantial damage to Fred's new car, it appears alcohol may have been involved though she wasn't charged. Now Maura is in Swiftwater and has what appears to be a second alcohol related accident, Maura panics and flees the scene, not uncommon.
The search doesn't begin until a couple days later, what I believe is error number one, they used a glove that may not have been worn by Maura as a reference for the dog. Problem number two, they use an air scent dog and not a ground scent dog. Air currents have diluted the trail as well as contamination from numerous sources. No one saw a car stop and pick her up and there were houses in the immediate area.
Error three, they limited the search and focused mainly on the direction the car had come from, toward rt 302 and a couple roads off rt 112.
A witness came forward some weeks later and claimed to have seen what appeared to be Maura about 7 miles east of the accident scene and the subject went out of their way to avoid being seen said to have ducked out of sight when his lights caught who ever it was. This is a desolate road, and at this time of year no one is going to be walking it for the fun of it.
Maura had no cell reception, this is a vast cell dead zone. Maura had been drinking and took the alcohol with her which show's intent to consume. Lets assume Maura is now in a highly charged emotional state, 2 accidents days apart, she likely felt guilt about wrecking Dads car, feels like a loser and now has accident number two. Maura it seems may have also had other emotional baggage before all this.
Its cold, she's not properly dressed for the elements, she may have been running which promotes sweat, her alcohol content though unknown isn't helping the situation. This is a perfect recipe for hypothermia which cause's one to turn delusional and death isn't far.
In a delusional state of hypothermia people do bizarre things, like strip down though freezing, and wander off. Maura may have gone to a higher point to try to get phone reception and twisted an ankle or even broke a leg and perished.
This is desolate, extremely thick in vegetation and most of these woods are untraveled by man. If Maura did perish out there the real shock would be that she was found! I feel 75% or more, the case is she sadly perished of her own doing brought on by a highly charged state of emotion. When people are emotionally charged they do not think rationally, add alcohol and you easily have disaster. Maura's mother was ill and died, I find it hard to believe if Maura was alive and well she would let friends and family suffer all these years and not say goodbye to her mother.

I'm on the same page with you on this. To add to your theory, I also think it possible she wasn't dressed properly for the weather. She didn't expect to be outdoors for hours that evening.
 

amber1

New Member
Joined
Jul 19, 2009
Messages
1,315
Reaction score
151
NHWoodsman, thank you for your post. I agree 100%.
I think in cases like these, we all don't want to believe she left on her own accord-we want to believe someone else did this to her, we want someone to blame.
But your theory is also what I have always thought. I really don't believe she hitch hiked-if so, she would have caught a ride with the bus driver who had stopped to see if she was okay. I believe she wandered off. It sounded like so much was going on in her life, and everyone has a breaking point. Why would she want to contact family with a second alcohol related acceident? I definitley could see how she would have run, and never be found again due to thick vegetation. It's like finding a needle in a hay stack.
I really do believe Maura is still somewhere out in the area, not far from the accident. And like you said, I don't believe she ran away and started a new life elsewhere. I don't believe she would ever put her family through years of pain like this.
 

neverletgo

Well-Known Member
Joined
Feb 29, 2012
Messages
2,593
Reaction score
484
:bump:

Bumping for Maura. :beats:

Ssaie.jpg
 

amber1

New Member
Joined
Jul 19, 2009
Messages
1,315
Reaction score
151
Maura is such a beautiful girl, I hope this holiday season brings her father some answers.
 

goldiegirl

Active Member
Joined
Feb 8, 2011
Messages
377
Reaction score
124
I have kind of a disturbing question...

I've actually always thought that she probably got in a car with someone given the fact that the dogs lost her scent. Now I'm starting to be more open minded about the possibility of her going off into the woods for whatever reason.

So, if this were the case as the last couple posts have discussed, does anyone think there would actually still be remains in the area, or would an animal have gotten them by now? I ask this because I honestly don't know. I don't know about those kinds of things. I don't think she would be found either way due to the vegetation and so forth, but I'm just wondering how much anyone thinks there would actually be left to find. Sad to think about, I know. But would an animal possibly eat the skeleton as well? Or would they just eat the flesh and leave the skeleton alone? Or could the bones be scattered all over the place?

I guess I ask this because I was holding out some hope that there would still be a "body" to find, assuming someone was looking in the right area and could get through the obstacles. But at this point how likely is that? Also, I know we've talked about dogs a million times (I've probably asked more dog questions than anyone else), but I have another question. I know that so-called "cadaver" dogs, which are really human remains detection dogs, hit on decomposing tissue, fluids, etc. But could they still hit on a skeleton? And if they ever could, would they after all these years, supposing there was one there? If so, I think we should try to get a private SAR group to take one up there. But I'm sure I'm not the first person to ever think of that and there's a reason why it either hasn't been done yet or hasn't worked...
 

amber1

New Member
Joined
Jul 19, 2009
Messages
1,315
Reaction score
151
Thank you for your post! I have also thought about that...what else would be left to find?! I don't believe that they would eat ALL her skeletal remains. If they really are all scattered (as much as I hate to say that), maybe it will mean something of her can be found. If she ran off in the woods, she has to be there somehere!
 

lioness65

New Member
Joined
Aug 3, 2008
Messages
9
Reaction score
1
I have been following this for a while and watched the episode of "Disappeared" again on netflix. I have to say the telephone call Billy received while he was at the airport of heavy breathing and a whimper of a woman is a telling clue to say the least. I in my heart of hearts believe she had succumbed to the elements and she called him but could not speak for whatever reasons maybe a last ditch effort to save herself but then again she got the voice mail. The despair to reach out again to the man she loved and to her it fell onto deaf ears by the voice mail picking up. I think she was at a very stressed time in her life. That is JMO
 

McSpy

Well-Known Member
Joined
Mar 20, 2010
Messages
10,605
Reaction score
518
I have kind of a disturbing question...

I've actually always thought that she probably got in a car with someone given the fact that the dogs lost her scent. Now I'm starting to be more open minded about the possibility of her going off into the woods for whatever reason.

So, if this were the case as the last couple posts have discussed, does anyone think there would actually still be remains in the area, or would an animal have gotten them by now? I ask this because I honestly don't know. I don't know about those kinds of things. I don't think she would be found either way due to the vegetation and so forth, but I'm just wondering how much anyone thinks there would actually be left to find. Sad to think about, I know. But would an animal possibly eat the skeleton as well? Or would they just eat the flesh and leave the skeleton alone? Or could the bones be scattered all over the place?

I guess I ask this because I was holding out some hope that there would still be a "body" to find, assuming someone was looking in the right area and could get through the obstacles. But at this point how likely is that? Also, I know we've talked about dogs a million times (I've probably asked more dog questions than anyone else), but I have another question. I know that so-called "cadaver" dogs, which are really human remains detection dogs, hit on decomposing tissue, fluids, etc. But could they still hit on a skeleton? And if they ever could, would they after all these years, supposing there was one there? If so, I think we should try to get a private SAR group to take one up there. But I'm sure I'm not the first person to ever think of that and there's a reason why it either hasn't been done yet or hasn't worked...

Since New Hampshire has 4 seasons, probably leaves and branches are covering her remains, especially after 9 years. If she is out there, her bones are still out there, but scattered. Her clothes and backpack are probably mixed in with the leaves too. I'm sure the fabric has faded. Although, there is a blue hat in the woods near my home and it has been there for about 3 years and it hasn't faded. If I recall correctly, she had a black jacket, a black backpack, and blue jeans. The blue jeans are probably faded, but I think it may be possible they could be still noticable in the spring and in the fall against the brown tones of the northern forest. Molly Bish's bathing suit was blue, which caught a hunter's eye. That was how she was found. If Maura succumbed to the elements, her shoes would be out there as well. I think it is important to keep this case alive, so hunters and hikers are aware. A 9 year old in 2004 could be an 18 year old hunter today. He may not be aware of Maura's disappearance in the area. He may not connect a pair of jeans in the woods to a missing person's case and may chalk it up as litter or just a lost article of clothing from a camper.

I'm uncomfortable writing about this too. I'd rather find out she has been working and living in Canada, but my gut feeling tells me she wouldn't let her family suffer by not knowing what happened to her.

I don't know about cadaver dogs, but my dog finds animal bones all the time. He gets sneaky about it too, because he knows I will try to take them. However, I don't know if he would be able to find old bones. In fact, I have no idea of the age of the bones he has found in the past. When we take walks, his nose is constantly on the ground. To him, it is like watching a good movie. He is very good at sniffing things out.

JMO
 

OldSteve

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 4, 2011
Messages
4,946
Reaction score
115
Since New Hampshire has 4 seasons, probably leaves and branches are covering her remains, especially after 9 years. If she is out there, her bones are still out there, but scattered. Her clothes and backpack are probably mixed in with the leaves too. I'm sure the fabric has faded. Although, there is a blue hat in the woods near my home and it has been there for about 3 years and it hasn't faded. If I recall correctly, she had a black jacket, a black backpack, and blue jeans. The blue jeans are probably faded, but I think it may be possible they could be still noticable in the spring and in the fall against the brown tones of the northern forest. Molly Bish's bathing suit was blue, which caught a hunter's eye. That was how she was found. If Maura succumbed to the elements, her shoes would be out there as well. I think it is important to keep this case alive, so hunters and hikers are aware. A 9 year old in 2004 could be an 18 year old hunter today. He may not be aware of Maura's disappearance in the area. He may not connect a pair of jeans in the woods to a missing person's case and may chalk it up as litter or just a lost article of clothing from a camper.

I'm uncomfortable writing about this too. I'd rather find out she has been working and living in Canada, but my gut feeling tells me she wouldn't let her family suffer by not knowing what happened to her.

I don't know about cadaver dogs, but my dog finds animal bones all the time. He gets sneaky about it too, because he knows I will try to take them. However, I don't know if he would be able to find old bones. In fact, I have no idea of the age of the bones he has found in the past. When we take walks, his nose is constantly on the ground. To him, it is like watching a good movie. He is very good at sniffing things out.

JMO

Well said McSpy, and happy holidays to all who post, and especially to you, I enjoy reading your posts!
Of course, we all wish it could be happier for those who seek lost love ones.

Prior to my following various ID cable shows and then joining Websleuths, I would not have thought much about finding articles of clothing scattered anywhere.
 

McSpy

Well-Known Member
Joined
Mar 20, 2010
Messages
10,605
Reaction score
518
Well said McSpy, and happy holidays to all who post, and especially to you, I enjoy reading your posts!
Of course, we all wish it could be happier for those who seek lost love ones.

Prior to my following various ID cable shows and then joining Websleuths, I would not have thought much about finding articles of clothing scattered anywhere.

Thanks, OldSteve! Happy Holidays to you and yours and to all who post!

Let's hope and pray the Murray family find the answers in the new year.
 

gnomony

Active Member
Joined
Feb 1, 2010
Messages
364
Reaction score
59
If she is out there, her bones are still out there, but scattered. Her clothes and backpack are probably mixed in with the leaves too. I'm sure the fabric has faded.

If she left the road for more than a few steps, she might well have walked out onto the frozen river that runs beside the road and which would have looked like an accessible clearing in many places, barely visible as a snowfield in the dark. (For her to leave the road in any other direction would have quickly required climbing over and through a wilderness of rocks, logs and thick trees.)

And if, for whatever reason, she died in the riverbed, there would be nothing left of her remains after the ice went out the following spring. Someone has posted, earlier in this thread, a video of what happens when the ice goes out -- a wall of water and debris comes down the river and really annihilates anything in its path.
 

amber1

New Member
Joined
Jul 19, 2009
Messages
1,315
Reaction score
151
I have been following this for a while and watched the episode of "Disappeared" again on netflix. I have to say the telephone call Billy received while he was at the airport of heavy breathing and a whimper of a woman is a telling clue to say the least. I in my heart of hearts believe she had succumbed to the elements and she called him but could not speak for whatever reasons maybe a last ditch effort to save herself but then again she got the voice mail. The despair to reach out again to the man she loved and to her it fell onto deaf ears by the voice mail picking up. I think she was at a very stressed time in her life. That is JMO

I think her getting his voice mail may have been the topper to her stresses. She was obviously stressed and at a hard time in her life, just got in a second accident, and when she calls Billy and get his voicemail, she's further devestated. It's precipatating factors that made this point in her life a crisis. I really believe Maura was in a crisis due to the series of unfortunate events that occurred,and was trying to run away from all the stresses in her life. I think she wanted to reach out for help, but was scared to at the same time because she seems like the type of girl who is expected to have it together. Basically, there are people who lose it, and those who find it, and I think Maura was one of those who are expected to "find it", but when you feel like life's going by fast and you're losing control, you get further into feeling hopeless because you Aren't living up to expectations of those who care about you. I do believe Maura was not running away for good, I am sure she had every intention of coming back, just needed a break from life. I have studied crisis interventions and got my certification in them, and I am sad to say, from what I have read on this case, Maura was in a very deep crisis, and a lot of her actions before she vanished were silent cry for help, probably because she was nervous about reaching out to different linkages and unsure of coping skills. I do hope she is found, the thought of her father constantly looking for his daughter, walking the woods, breaks my heart!
 

McSpy

Well-Known Member
Joined
Mar 20, 2010
Messages
10,605
Reaction score
518
If she left the road for more than a few steps, she might well have walked out onto the frozen river that runs beside the road and which would have looked like an accessible clearing in many places, barely visible as a snowfield in the dark. (For her to leave the road in any other direction would have quickly required climbing over and through a wilderness of rocks, logs and thick trees.)

And if, for whatever reason, she died in the riverbed, there would be nothing left of her remains after the ice went out the following spring. Someone has posted, earlier in this thread, a video of what happens when the ice goes out -- a wall of water and debris comes down the river and really annihilates anything in its path.

I saw that video of the river and it was incredible. You are probably right, but even finding one bone sometimes can help identify a person. Someone in my area found a one bone on a tiny island (almost like a sand bar) and gave it to police. They were able to ID a missing person through the bone's DNA. The bone somehow washed up there. It's a long shot, but not an impossibility.
 

McSpy

Well-Known Member
Joined
Mar 20, 2010
Messages
10,605
Reaction score
518
I think her getting his voice mail may have been the topper to her stresses. She was obviously stressed and at a hard time in her life, just got in a second accident, and when she calls Billy and get his voicemail, she's further devestated. It's precipatating factors that made this point in her life a crisis. I really believe Maura was in a crisis due to the series of unfortunate events that occurred,and was trying to run away from all the stresses in her life. I think she wanted to reach out for help, but was scared to at the same time because she seems like the type of girl who is expected to have it together. Basically, there are people who lose it, and those who find it, and I think Maura was one of those who are expected to "find it", but when you feel like life's going by fast and you're losing control, you get further into feeling hopeless because you Aren't living up to expectations of those who care about you. I do believe Maura was not running away for good, I am sure she had every intention of coming back, just needed a break from life. I have studied crisis interventions and got my certification in them, and I am sad to say, from what I have read on this case, Maura was in a very deep crisis, and a lot of her actions before she vanished were silent cry for help, probably because she was nervous about reaching out to different linkages and unsure of coping skills. I do hope she is found, the thought of her father constantly looking for his daughter, walking the woods, breaks my heart!

I wholeheartedly agree! I wished she slept on it before making any moves.
 

reb

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 22, 2005
Messages
2,968
Reaction score
88
NH woodsman-- you are so right. It seems to be a trend for individuals- esp. who are young, stressed, and, well.. drunk.. when they have a car wreck, to panic and go running off. Alcohol= bad judgement. Her doing that- and ending up with hypothermia in the woods- is probably more likely than the idea of being picked up by a killer (which is very possible, obviously).
There seems to be so many cases where people are never found because their bodies are hidden in wooded vegetation (but obviously you can't prove that's what happened, unless they're found)... which seems unbelievable when you have hundreds of people searching over many miles, over and over...! But apparently it happens.
Kind of reminds me of Leah Roberts, Jeremy Alex, Trenny Gibson, & others...
 

neverletgo

Well-Known Member
Joined
Feb 29, 2012
Messages
2,593
Reaction score
484
Thinking of you and your loved ones today, Maura! :beats:

M6wol.gif
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top