AMBER ALERT NJ - Dulce Mariá Alavez, 5, abducted at Bridgeton City Park, Cumberland County, 16 Sept 2019 #6

Discussion in 'Missing Persons Discussion' started by hollye, Sep 16, 2019.

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  1. Gardener1850

    Gardener1850 Timeline Guru (Still Remembering Cupcake)

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    Maybe police were already able to locate and interview the black man and are only still looking for the Hispanic man, hence the sketch of him? Or maybe the black man does not exist and the girls changed their story after being interviewed by police more than once? Noema would have no way of knowing if the girls changed their story as police usually will not share those kind of investigation details with anyone, not even family members of the missing child. Since Noema did not witness the men in the park at the time when Dulce went missing, she is relating 2nd and 3rd hand info from children. Plus that 3rd hand info may have had to be translated from English to Spanish and back to English again before she shares it. I don't think it is any big mystery why we get different details and different words from her upon each different telling. She was not the witness and the fact of the witnesses being children means they may have changed what they said after police interviewed them several times.

    What if this Hispanic man they are looking for is someone that the girls from the basketball court recognized as a regular at the park but the girls were afraid of him and didn't want to share what he looked like at first? Or maybe the girls know who he is and that he is here illegally and they didn't want him to get in trouble? The girls might have made up seeing a black man at first but recanted that story later and admitted he was Hispanic. It also happens pretty often that eye witnesses are honestly mistaken in what they saw. Sometimes it is difficult for witnesses to correctly guess racial identification, especially if they didn't have any reason to pay attention to the person at the time they saw him. Maybe different girls saw different things but the same man? Maybe half the girls said they saw a Hispanic man and half the girls said he was black-- that could have gotten communicated to Noema who was on the phone with 911 as being two men. Maybe what the others thought was a black man was later determined to be a Hispanic man and also the same man-- but only after police questioned the girls more than once. The thing is that "facts" that are based solely on eyewitness accounts can change as police investigate. And two witnesses can see the same event and give vastly different accounts of what they saw. There may be some of that type of uncertainty from multiple child witnesses going on here.

    MOO.
     
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2019
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  2. janewall

    janewall Well-Known Member

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    I worry that it's such a typical, stereotypical red herring to implicate a black man in cases of missing children. In this case I would certainly like to know more about what the witness said she saw, ideally relayed by a reliable source such as LE. (No, I do not consider Noema a reliable source, although I don't think she's being intentionally misleading.) I would like to know if in fact this witness is the child of tender years, or one of the people playing basketball, or was she simply another person in the park that was supposedly nearly empty?

    The unknown black man could of course be a black Hispanic person - a Dominican or Puerto Rican for example - but this simply does not correlate with the sketch released by police. But if the witness Noema was talking to is very young, she may not have expressed her description of his skin tone/ethnicity clearly to Noema, and Noema does not strike me as someone who would try to pin it down.

    I also would like to see LE clear up the discrepancy of the reported approximately 20 older boys or young adults playing basketball at the time of Dulce's disappearance, vs a very few younger girls. That makes a huge difference. Early on in the investigation, supposedly there was a delay while LE were tracking all of the large number of ballplayers down throughout Bridgeton, to interview them more fully than they had been able to at the courts. That makes absolutely no sense if there were only a few girls.

    Having facts that can be relied upon as facts would certainly help. I hope that as we don't have them, and Bridgeton PD may or may not have them, the FBI has been able to sift through the noise and pin down a few absolutely known facts!
     
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  3. janewall

    janewall Well-Known Member

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    I worry that it's such a typical, stereotypical red herring to implicate a black man in cases of missing children. In this case I would certainly like to know more about what the witness said she saw, ideally relayed by a reliable source such as LE. (No, I do not consider Noema a reliable source, although I don't think she's being intentionally misleading.) I would like to know if in fact this witness is the child of tender years, or one of the people playing basketball, or was she simply another person in the park that was supposedly nearly empty that afternoon?

    The unknown black man could of course be a black Hispanic person - a Dominican or Puerto Rican or Brazilian for example - but this simply does not correlate with the sketch released by police. But if the witness Noema was talking to is very young, she may not have identified his skin tone/ethnicity clearly, and Noema does not strike me as someone who would try to narrow such a detail down.

    I also would like to see LE clear up the discrepancy of the reported approximately 20 older boys or young adults playing basketball at the time of Dulce's disappearance, vs. a very few younger girls. That makes a huge difference. Early on in the investigation, supposedly there was a delay while LE were tracking all of the large number of ballplayers down throughout Bridgeton, to interview them more fully than they had been able to at the courts. That makes absolutely no sense if there were only a few girls.

    Having facts that can be relied upon to be facts would certainly help enormously. I hope that as we don't have them, and Bridgeton PD may or may not have them, the FBI has been able to sift through the noise and pin down a few absolutely known facts!

    MOO
     
  4. jjenny

    jjenny Well-Known Member

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    Black man and a Hispanic man were mentioned by Noema during 911 call so I think those are two different men. Noema then repeated during Dr. Phil's interview that a basketball playing girl mentioned seeing a Black man in the area when Dulce was running towards the buildings. So its confusing why police haven't said anything about a Black man being there (even if only as a witness). I guess it's possible police know who he is, but than it doesn't appear he witnessed anything? This man would have been right in the area but the Hispanic man/red van description came from a child playing basketball. And who came up with a description of second Hispanic man (used in a sketch) and why so long after the incident?
     
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  5. Angleterre

    Angleterre Well-Known Member

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    Excellent post
     
  6. MimosaMornings

    MimosaMornings Well- Known Member

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    So when Noema said “they told her someone probably took her” she had already talked to the people on the basketball courts. (now only 4 females, perhaps all children and no adults?) At this point in time, she had already called her brother to bring the family dog. Was her brother and the dog with Noema when she talked to these people?
    She called 911 after searching with the brother and the dog from what I remember.
     
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  7. oceanstarryeyes

    oceanstarryeyes Well-Known Member

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    She said in the beginning that she could not live with her parents because she was not following house rules.
     
  8. oceanstarryeyes

    oceanstarryeyes Well-Known Member

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    At the beginning Noema said that Dulces little brother told her there was a man behind the building beside a Red Van waving for them to come over and that is where Dulce ran to and disappeared.
     
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  9. jjenny

    jjenny Well-Known Member

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    He doesn't really talk so he didn't tell her all that (he isn't the one who mentioned a red van or that a man was behind the buildings). As far as I can tell he gestured somebody waved to them (Noema says waved like come here). The source of the red van story is a basketball playing girl age 10.
     
  10. Trackergd

    Trackergd SAR Search Manager and Footprint Tracker

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    What a confusing mix of official and unofficial reports, conjecture and media spin. It would really help to have an accurate and factual timeline. I wonder if LE has a clearer picture of the events than we do? I am beginning to think the reason LE has not released the scent trail to the public is because it may support criminal intent or actions charges at a later date, BUT it really leaves the need for any further search activities up in the air.
     
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  11. Trackergd

    Trackergd SAR Search Manager and Footprint Tracker

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    Was any reason given for the family members being laid off from their jobs?
     
  12. ChatteringBirds

    ChatteringBirds Well-Known Member

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    I just watched the Dr Phil episode. I've met people before who don't show emotion and didn't find that suspicious. She comes across to me as very depressed, and I think years of depression can really hinder someone socially.

    I thought Dr. Phil didn't need to ask several times in several ways if she thought she failed her daughter.

    She seems in pain to me.

    And the spokesperson JR is not on Noema's side. Does she have access to funds collected for the family, as has been said here?
     
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  13. CSIDreamer

    CSIDreamer Well-Known Member

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    They said it was due to missing so much work to look for Dulce.
     
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  14. peppertheyorkiepoo

    peppertheyorkiepoo Well-Known Member

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    I do not mean to be negative, but I don't know how a 10 year old can give enough accurate detail for a sketch, I know at that age I could given description of clothing, hair color and length race. At 10, I could have picked someone out of a sketch book. I could not have given enough detail to get facial features correct. JMO
     
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  15. MissMalowe

    MissMalowe Well-Known Member

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    To echo what several others have already mentioned, it's so very odd that reports (from LE to news outlets I believe) mentioned appx. 2 dozen basketball players and now according to Noema, there were only 4 young girls (one being 10)

    Until that Dr Phil interview, I assumed there was indeed many basketball players, perhaps of varying ages but at least some older or even adult players as in her 911 call she mentions her info coming from people at the park, not children/kids/a small group of girls. She never once specifies during the 911 call that it's children/kids giving her the information, just "people."
     
  16. WildOrchid

    WildOrchid Well-Known Member

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    Does anyone have any idea why in Cupcake’s case, parents were asked to avoid the cameras and remain silent even while being trashed by rumors but in this case so much is being let go? Why would BPD not comment on all the discrepancies after the DP show? Maybe waiting for local gossip to trip someone up? Otherwise I can’t imagine a professional reason for not grabbing the reins here and gaining some semblance of control.
     
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  17. ms_x_to_the_m

    ms_x_to_the_m Well-Known Member

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    I agree with this. She looks beaten. I bet her parents will remind her every chance they get, that she is missing because she didn't want her kids, like she should. I am also sure, she is going to loose the child she is pregnant with to her parents. It almost feels like she doesn't even want to bother trying, she has given up.
    I am from latin America, an I can tell you my parents have always been hard to please for girls. In my culture, girls are married off young and they stay at home, have babies and are "perfect" parents. Agreed, not all, however that is the thinking of most. I have a career, two kids that I support fully, and because I am divorced and not living with a man, I am considered unsuccessful. It's just the way it is in our culture.
    I hope against hope that Dulce is found and is reunited with her mom. I also wish for mom to regain custody of her son. She needs to take parenting classes and rise above this.
     
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  18. quidnunc247

    quidnunc247 Well-Known Member

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    IMO she’s doing more harm than good at this point.
     
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  19. MissMalowe

    MissMalowe Well-Known Member

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    The grandparents (or, at least the grandmother, as she's usually the one we see) looks very grief-stricken and "beaten" as well.

    She is an enormous victim in this situation as well. She wasnt even at the park that day, and is the one who has cared for Noema's children. If someone lost "my" child on their watch, I wouldn't be real thrilled either.

    I don't see Noema regaining custody of her son; at least anytime soon. She has a 3rd child due soon and from what we know, it doesn't seem as though she has prepared herself to care for, parent, & provide for that baby independent of her parents, which I think would be important to establish prior to attempting to get custody of a previous child.

    Edited to add the note of anytime soon.
     
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2019
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  20. lonetraveler

    lonetraveler Crime Addict

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    Was Dulce attending school?
     
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