NO BAIL! Australia - Allison Baden-Clay, Brisbane QLD, 19 April 2012 -#29

[factfinda]

Marlywings, I'm trying to keep my criticism of the Courier Mail in check, believe me, and at this stage I've not been harsh. Yes I recall you posting the info from the CM in regard to various versions re: Allison's so called walk but as you say

This is your opinion and I respect that but you don't know for certain whether or not GBC told anyone of these people anything at all. My initial point was that the CM had got it wrong on what GBC initially told the police and that was that he last saw Allison watching TV and he went to bed at 10:00pm. He did not tell the police that she went for a walk at 10:00pm. His story has never changed but for some reason the CM, along with other MSM have confused the information given to them in regard to Allison going for a walk and at what time. This could possibly be attributed to police media wanting to keep all information close to home.

Now, I can recall a sweet lady a few weeks ago who was like a dog with a bone. She would not have it that GBC phoned 000 until she heard it from the police. No matter what was written in MSM etc. this lady would not let it rest (drove me up the bloody wall to be quite honest :floorlaugh. Were you not negating anything and everything that the CM reported in regard to that phone call? It's now been confirmed via the information submitted to the bail hearing that GBC did in fact dial 000 to report Allison missing and also that his story was that he'd last seen Allison watching TV and went to bed at 10:00pm on the Thursday night.

Phew! Time for sleep now.

But how do you know the CM got it wrong? The police have themselves said he provided several variations on his last alleged sighting of her. Therefore, I don't understand what you mean by "his story has never changed"? And isn't it highly likely that all of these versions are incorrect anyway?

 

[Even]

Just a thought to put out there..if linking together some of the rumours etc.. Firstly with a facetimecall, you do need wifi for this? but it can be done anywhere? COuld it be possible NBC was at the roundabout at this time when the face call occured? I know NBC being at the roundabout was somewhat of a rumour, though it was told to us by 2 people, one of whom is a verified poster.. Also linking in the person on QPS facebook who mentioned seeing something 'odd' at the roundabout at that time.. I wonder.. and I am just wondering out loud.. if this was pre planned, was NBC waiting there for the call..for the deed to be done? Not saying this is my theory, just putting the thoughts out there.

If they know about the facetime call they will have logs and will be able to find the IP addresses of the two connections either from the phone or from apple's servers, that established the connection, given the appropriate court orders.

Once you have IP addresses you can easily find out who the ISP provider is who assigned the ip address to the device. ISPs are obliged to log who has which IP address down to the nearest second.

Now he's been charged I'm sure they can now get court orders to open up googles massive cache of information linked to his computers and his mobile on all his searches over the last few YEARS!.

For those interested open up a cmd window. (Click Start Menu in bottom left and type 'cmd', without the quotes, into the 'startsearch' box, and hit return key.

In this cmd window type 'tracert' followed by an ip address of interest. For instance type 'tracert 203.173.50.132', without the quotes, then hit the return key.

This will show you the network route (hence the name trace route) taken from your computer to the specified ip address. In this case the ip address is from iinet. If you do this it will be obvious that this address is indeed from iinet.

Instead of an ip you can also put in a web address e.g. tracert amazon.com

PS. There is nothing illegal in doing this! (All you are doing is asking your computer to show what it does all the time in the background everytime you make a request to see a page.)

 

[BJsleuth]

Someone posted this link a couple of threads back - it describes Homicidal Smothering, Throttling (Strangulation) [incl ligature] and a few others. It seems that bleeding can occur from the nose and mouth post-smothering. Some of the signs that are often present might not have been as evident due to the length of time the body was exposed.

http://forensicpathologyonline.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=106&Itemid=123

This is another link
http://www.legalserviceindia.com/medicolegal/medico.htm

If you sift through it looks like there are a couple of possibilities which could involve some blood, and occasions where the causes of death might be hard to detect, in some cases.

I'd say there are a few possibilities including those you have mentioned. I noticed that with strangulation it describes possible injuries inflicted by the victim in the form of scratches to the hands and chest of the assailant.

I was thinking if she HAD been in water, it could have washed away any blood evidence etc. Petechiae is also very difficult to see in advanced stages of decomposition

 

[Curiousasacat]

Being the nosey parker I am, I went looking for it and can't find anything! Whys the name of this supporter page? I'd love to have a lurk

https://www.facebook.com/SupportGerardBadenClay

 

[itsthevibe]

I was thinking if she HAD been in water, it could have washed away any blood evidence etc. Petechiae is also very difficult to see in advanced stages of decomposition

Yes, true, but my point was really linked to the blood in the car - to explain that.

 

[BJsleuth]

Yes, true, but my point was really linked to the blood in the car - to explain that.

You may be right, i'm not disagreeing with you! I was reading an article in PerthNow which said that the blood in the car shows it was used to move her after her death so what I think that means is that it was blood that came from an internal source which is something that can occur post mortem regardless of the COD and is highly likely this would occur when moving the body. There doesn't need to be signs of trauma. This would possibly obscure the signs of asphyxia too.

- Allison's blood was found in the rear of Baden-Clay's car, consistent with "her body being moved by being placed in the rear of the car".


http://www.perthnow.com.au/news/sec...lay-bail-hearing/story-e6frg12c-1226405870965


Unrelated to your comment but to save posting another one:

I also found out when FaceTime call is connected, both the callers and receiver’s location is sent to Apple and saved in their internal database. Also, Facetime is not encrypted and Apple HAVE the capability to log and monitor people’s FaceTime videos ie: they can watch them, however it's unclear if they use it.

 

[Opinionsgalore]

You may be right, i'm not disagreeing with you! I was reading an article in PerthNow which said that the blood in the car shows it was used to move her after her death so what I think that means is that it was blood that came from an internal source which is something that can occur post mortem regardless of the COD and is highly likely this would occur when moving the body. There doesn't need to be signs of trauma. This would possibly obscure the signs of asphyxia too.

- Allison's blood was found in the rear of Baden-Clay's car, consistent with "her body being moved by being placed in the rear of the car".


http://www.perthnow.com.au/news/sec...lay-bail-hearing/story-e6frg12c-1226405870965


Unrelated to your comment but to save posting another one:

I also found out when FaceTime call is connected, both the callers and receiver’s location is sent to Apple and saved in their internal database. Also, Facetime is not encrypted and Apple HAVE the capability to log and monitor people’s FaceTime videos ie: they can watch them, however it's unclear if they use it.

Thanks BJ
I remember when the iPhone 4 came out there was a furore about the amount of information that was being sent to Apple. Perhaps QPS is doing 'battle' with Apple (to get them to release all the info they have stored on their server in relation to this case).


IMO
JMO
MOO

 

[BJsleuth]

Thanks BJ
I remember when the iPhone 4 came out there was a furore about the amount of information that was being sent to Apple. Perhaps QPS is doing 'battle' with Apple (to get them to release all the info they have stored on their server in relation to this case).


IMO
JMO
MOO

It will be interesting to see if they can get it.

 

[Opinionsgalore]

It will be interesting to see if they can get it.

Maybe they'll set a precedent


IMO
JMO
MOO

 

[DrWatson]

Hi Dr Watson, Thinking suffocation, whilst victim supine, on a couch or bed. Physical evidence suggestive of suffocation would include the presence of petechial hemorrhages in the eyes, face, lungs, and neck area. Petechiae are tiny purple or red spots on the skin that are caused by small areas of bleeding under the skin.

Further, given this scenario, fingernail scratches/gouges on face, neck, chest or torso would be very explainable on a person leaning over victim when that person was unclothed to the waist. Also fingernails likely to be broken, torn and bleeding.

Cause of death would be easily discernable still, despite decomposition, which could be less due to clothing on, than otherwise.

Also, easily detected if body moved or not. If body not moved, then the plant life under body contact points would be yellowed/browned and dead or dying.

All of the above is my opinion, but with a bit of thought.

I would be interested in our good doctor's opinion.

Maybe the Face Time call was to display the damage to that person.

Morning KG1.

Suffocation (as opposed to strangulation) can be subtle to define, especially after 10 days, but would be fairly obvious on the autopsy table. Yes, petechiae would be likely. Strangulation (i.e. manual neck compression) would leave bruising, and depending on the force of compression, fracture of the hyoid bone in the front of the neck is common, although not 100% present.

Neither would explain the chipped tooth (it's hard to chip your own tooth - more likely to have bitten her own tongue or inside of cheek or lip), yet a blow could chip a tooth, as also could biting down on something hard, eg something being forced into the mouth - like the neck of a bottle, for example.

As for moving the body - there are several ways to tell if the body has been moved post mortem, including the position of what is known as lividity. That is where the blood, which is now basically static, settles towards the bottom of the body when in the resting position. This only takes a few hours to occur (between 30 minutes and 3 or 4 hours), and leaves telltale "staining" and discolouration. if the body had been moved after lividity occurred, either by the perpetrator or by a fast-flowing creek, it would be highly unlikely that the body would end up in exactly the same position as it was before.

You may find this link useful, although somewhat technical:

http://www.somerset.k12.md.us/JMT/postmortem_changes.htm

As gruesome as it is, I hope that all makes sense.....

 

[mouse detective]

I wonder if TM believes in GBC's innocence at this stage?

 

[DrWatson]

Good point DrWatson but we don't know that Allison was submerged for 10 days, if at all.

Yup - agree completely. I was just making the point that those injuries would still be visible.

My own thoughts are that she was hidden further upstream, most likely at the scout camp, having been taken there by vehicle, given that GBC would know that camping area - and its fringes - very well. The creek runs through there. If she had been either buried (shallow) or otherwise left under some dense scrub on the banks of the creek, it would be quite feasible for her to have been washed downstream as the creek level rose a lot over that weekend with all the rain we had.

The creek takes an almost 90 degree bend to its right to pass under the road bridge and then empty into the Brisbane River, and a body would quite feasibly have been washed onto, and up, the bank on the outside radius of that bend - the bank where she was found. And the bridge supports, or possibly vegetation roots, could have snagged her there. Another few metres and she would have been in the main stream of the Brisbane River, and could have ended up anywhere.

 

[mouse detective]

Morning KG1.

Suffocation (as opposed to strangulation) can be subtle to define, especially after 10 days, but would be fairly obvious on the autopsy table. Yes, petechiae would be likely. Strangulation (i.e. manual neck compression) would leave bruising, and depending on the force of compression, fracture of the hyoid bone in the front of the neck is common, although not 100% present.

Neither would explain the chipped tooth (it's hard to chip your own tooth - more likely to have bitten her own tongue or inside of cheek or lip), yet a blow could chip a tooth, as also coule biting down on something hard, eg something being forced into the mouth - like the neck of a bottle, for example.

As for moving the body - there are several ways to tell if the body has been moved post mortem, including the position of what is known as lividity. That is where the blood, which is now basically static, settles towards the bottom of the body when in the resting position. This only takes a few hours to occur (between 30 minutes and 3 or 4 hours), and leaves telltale "staining" and discolouration. if the body had been moved after lividity occurred, either by the perpetrator or by a fast-flowing creek, it would be highly unlikely that the body would end up in exactly the same position as it was before.

You may find this link useful, although somewhat technical:

http://www.somerset.k12.md.us/JMT/postmortem_changes.htm

As gruesome as it is, I hope that all makes sense.....

It was an upper incisor that was chipped could this have happened as the body was moved out of the vehicle - mouth knocked on tow ball for instance?

 

[DrWatson]

Sorry I don't understand..? High tide doesn't come up this high??

Lu-Lu - we had a huge amount of rain over the weekend immediately prior to ABC's body being found. The Brisbane River is still tidal up there, although not by THAT much. But the creeks can rise by metres in a good downpour. We have a creek running through the bottom paddock at home here, and every summer - our wet season - it floods, and the water can be 2-3 metres deep. And in full flow, it has enough force that the last decent flood in January 2011 peeled back the bitumen off the road like the top off a sardine tin, and washed a car off into the treetops further downstream.

I think perhaps that whoever thought they had hidden the body, didn't bank on that heavy, prolonged rainfall over that weekend.

 

[BJsleuth]

Morning KG1.

Suffocation (as opposed to strangulation) can be subtle to define, especially after 10 days, but would be fairly obvious on the autopsy table. Yes, petechiae would be likely. Strangulation (i.e. manual neck compression) would leave bruising, and depending on the force of compression, fracture of the hyoid bone in the front of the neck is common, although not 100% present.

Neither would explain the chipped tooth (it's hard to chip your own tooth - more likely to have bitten her own tongue or inside of cheek or lip), yet a blow could chip a tooth, as also coule biting down on something hard, eg something being forced into the mouth - like the neck of a bottle, for example.

As for moving the body - there are several ways to tell if the body has been moved post mortem, including the position of what is known as lividity. That is where the blood, which is now basically static, settles towards the bottom of the body when in the resting position. This only takes a few hours to occur (between 30 minutes and 3 or 4 hours), and leaves telltale "staining" and discolouration. if the body had been moved after lividity occurred, either by the perpetrator or by a fast-flowing creek, it would be highly unlikely that the body would end up in exactly the same position as it was before.

You may find this link useful, although somewhat technical:

http://www.somerset.k12.md.us/JMT/postmortem_changes.htm

As gruesome as it is, I hope that all makes sense.....

Could a tooth be chipped say, for example. biting someone's forehead where the lower incisors are on the forehead and the upper on the skull?

 

[DrWatson]

It was an upper incisor that was chipped could this have happened as the body was moved out of the vehicle - mouth knocked on tow ball for instance?

Could have been - but you'd still expect other signs in that case, the same as if she'd been struck, eg a split lip.

And perhaps my memory is playing tricks, but I thought it was a lower tooth? Not that it makes any difference really. I thought I read that it was "lower eyetooth" - which is the common name for a canine tooth, the 3rd tooth along from the midline.

 

[FirstTimer]

Morning all,

I just wanted to let you know that the official tally for the fundraiser last weekend $50,000.80.

Great effort.

Cheers.

 

[DrWatson]

Could a tooth be chipped say, for example. biting someone's forehead where the lower incisors are on the forehead and the upper on the skull?

Nope. Highly unlikely. A BLOW from the forehead may do it, but not biting, unless there is already a fault line in the tooth, eg if a partial crown filling had been present and got knocked out. But again - any chip caused by an IMPACT would also be likely to cause soft tissue damage to the lip, unless the mouth was open but the teeth closed - like a "pumpkin" grin on Halloween. An expression known as "rictus".

 

[mouse detective]

Could have been - but you'd still expect other signs in that case, the same as if she'd been struck, eg a split lip.

And perhaps my memory is playing tricks, but I thought it was a lower tooth? Not that it makes any difference really. I thought I read that it was "lower eyetooth" - which is the common name for a canine tooth, the 3rd tooth along from the midline.

Yes you are correct - lower eye tooth. It's still a bit early for me!!

 

[BJsleuth]

Nope. Highly unlikely. A BLOW from the forehead may do it, but not biting, unless there is already a fault line in the tooth, eg if a partial crown filling had been present and got knocked out. But again - any chip caused by an IMPACT would also be likely to cause soft tissue damage to the lip, unless the mouth was open but the teeth closed - like a "pumpkin" grin on Halloween. An expression known as "rictus".

Thanks and yes, I too thought it was a lower canine incisor hence my specific question re the positioning.