NO BAIL! Australia - Allison Baden-Clay, Brisbane QLD, 19 April 2012 -#30

[jubillee]

The local who told me a bunch of gossip was very accurate as far as I can tell (mistress, possible DV, business financial issues, car movements, father involvement), all before anything was published. The same local told me a police officer told them Allison's car had been found at the Showgrounds. I mentioned this in an earlier thread then someone pointed out a newspaper article that said both cars were found at the home. At that point I said my source must be mistaken or the police officer told them something inaccurate. I still have doubts and wonder if her car was spotted at the Showgrounds following the initial return/panic, then maybe moved again... Or the MSM mention may have been inaccurate. No idea really, but the idea of the car being at the show grounds has come from a number of sources. JMO.

Could this be why the police set up command post at the showgrounds?

 

[Keyboredom]

Could this be why the police set up command post at the showgrounds?

Probably more likely that it's a large local publicly available space right near the last place she was reported seen.

 

[Woombite]

In my opinion, Allison's body was initially hidden somewhere around the Tyamolum scout ground exactly because it would definitely be found there, one day. But not immediately because scouts left the camp due to rainfall forecast. The perp knew that and knew the area well. Besides, police "identified what could have been drag marks near a dirt track leading into one of the creeks."

Hi Gran
How hard would it be for her to have been placed near Scout Camp and maybe then moved down a bit later by someone else involved? Carrying a body down a creekbed at night could give one scratches and make one at risk of caterpiller injury imo.

 

[bellgirl]

The local who told me a bunch of gossip was very accurate as far as I can tell (mistress, possible DV, business financial issues, car movements, father involvement), all before anything was published. The same local told me a police officer told them Allison's car had been found at the Showgrounds. I mentioned this in an earlier thread then someone pointed out a newspaper article that said both cars were found at the home. At that point I said my source must be mistaken or the police officer told them something inaccurate. I still have doubts and wonder if her car was spotted at the Showgrounds following the initial return/panic, then maybe moved again... Or the MSM mention may have been inaccurate. No idea really, but the idea of the car being at the show grounds has come from a number of sources. JMO.

I agree Keyboredom - your local friend seems to be quite correct with their trumours. You know I love the car sighting at Anstead! But the Captiva (?) at the Showgrounds is a little hard to continue believing because of the report that both cars were found at home.

However, there are atleast two 'stories' that I have heard locally and then have continued to hear on the outskirts of Brisbane. I don't know whether these rumours are popular as they are kind of 'out there' or because they are extremely and unfortunately very true. I will wait for the outcome on them.

So, I'm open to the Captiva (?) being at the Showgrounds - maybe GBC couldn't/didn't think he'd get it cleaned in time and thought to dump it down the road and then later did a panic and drove it back up - splashing heaps of bleach/mould killer around the wheel covers inside the car? He thought that this would be suffice.

 

[Wonder Woman]

Qld is a codified criminal jurisdction in which only the defences or excuses contained in the criminal code apply. There is no statutory defence of 'homicidal somnambulsim' here.

Thanks Hawkins.

While there is no specific statutory defence of somnambulism, the general principle applies under section 23 of the Queensland Criminal Code that a person is not responsible for actions "independent of the exercise of the person's will". That is, a person is not criminally responsible for the things that they do independent of their will. Examples of such unwilled actions could include types of reflex actions, things done while asleep, and things done due to automatism.

Also, the defence of insanity under section 27 of the Queensland Criminal Code may be applied to sleepwalking.

Please refer to the attached article: http://www.austlii.edu.au/cgi-bin/sinodisp/au/journals/MurUEJL/1996/4.html?stem=0&synonyms=0&query=sleep%20walking%20automatism

MOO :cow:

 

[grannie]

A floating object can spin around the internal pillar, with a flow, as a long as water levels are high enough to carry it. When the water level drops, the object will be ancored to the highest ground level and as far as possible from the internal pillar (=the centre of a circular motion). The key words here are 'centrifugal force'. JMO.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fmf2nPuv2OI"]Centrifugal Force [/ame]

 

[alicat]

Hi Gran
How hard would it be for her to have been placed near Scout Camp and maybe then moved down a bit later by someone else involved? Carrying a body down a creekbed at night could give one scratches and make one at risk of caterpiller injury imo.

I think that would be a little too risky, especially with people being so aware a mother was missing. IMO.

 

[BJsleuth]

I agree Keyboredom - your local friend seems to be quite correct with their trumours. You know I love the car sighting at Anstead! But the Captiva (?) at the Showgrounds is a little hard to continue believing because of the report that both cars were found at home.

However, there are atleast two 'stories' that I have heard locally and then have continued to hear on the outskirts of Brisbane. I don't know whether these rumours are popular as they are kind of 'out there' or because they are extremely and unfortunately very true. I will wait for the outcome on them.

So, I'm open to the Captiva (?) being at the Showgrounds - maybe GBC couldn't/didn't think he'd get it cleaned in time and thought to dump it down the road and then later did a panic and drove it back up - splashing heaps of bleach/mould killer around the wheel covers inside the car? He thought that this would be suffice.

Are there bins at the showground? Hopefully the police searched there! It may have been there earlier then taken back to the house.

 

[UnfoldingTruth]

how about this possibility? Allison was initially left near or on the scouts property, then moved to what the killer/s and/or accomplice/s decided was a more suitable place? I suppose it would be very very hard for any one to move her if they were under scrutiny though, but I just find it hard to believe she landed where she did, when I look at the high tide marks etc, which, incidentally, brings me to my next thought:

I have looked at the photos of her under the bridge a million and one times, and still dont feel 100% satisfied that the image that everyone refers to as Allison, is Allison. I blew the photo up a couple of times, and discovered there are quite few people in the picture. there is the two that look quite clear, then there is a yellow suited person with a back pack, very close to the suggested body, and another person further up and to the left...I cant go and check right this minute, bedtimes etc, but will have a closer look in a bit, then post my thoughts as it was at least 10 - 15 threads ago that I examined it.

Does anyone else have difficulty seeing the image as Allison's body?
And does anyone else see at least 4 or 5 people in the photo?

I don't believe Allison was moved after initially being left somewhere else. i really don't think if GBC is the killer, that he could have done it. Police suspected him from day one. It would have been too difficult for him to slip back out and move the body.. I am sure they had close eyes on him. MOO

 

[DrWatson]

Hi Gran
How hard would it be for her to have been placed near Scout Camp and maybe then moved down a bit later by someone else involved? Carrying a body down a creekbed at night could give one scratches and make one at risk of caterpiller injury imo.

Not feasible, with Kholo creek, IMHO. And there is no "creek bed" as in a dry creek bed. It has water in it most of the time. Running water. And is very steep-sided.

For those who remain dubious about where she was found, as I've mentioned before, Kholo Creek takes an almost 90 degree bend to the right just before passing under the bridge (that is - to the right in the direction of water flow - downstream). After that bend, is the bridge, and then a few metres further on, it flows into the main Brisbane River. There is also a large water mains pipeline crossing the creek a few metres on the downstream side of the bridge, but that is usually high up out of the water, just below the road level,

With a flood flow, as we had that weekend, the water would have been accelerating around the outside radius of that bend - the side where Allison was found, as well as pushing up the bank. The water on the inside radius would be slower (basic fishing principle known to most males... )

That photo shows Allison high up on the outer radius, and just beyond the bridge, so I would presume she was carried around the outer radius and up high, on the current which would have been very strong. That creek drains a lot of the surrounding hills, and we had a LOT of rain over two days.

So, if the body was washed downstream from somewhere e.g. the scout camp area, then hit the bend in the creek, washed upwards and outwards at the bend, under the bridge, then stopped.

What stopped her? Who knows - the police would have seen if the body was snagged on something such as tree roots, etc. Also, if it was a surge of water that pushed her that far, then subsided leaving her stuck high up on the bank.... our creeks around here can do that. We have one that runs through our bottom paddock, and in the wet season, that can go from 2 metres deep over the road back to all the road exposed in a few minutes as a storm surge flows downstream.

I'm sure those of you who live locally would know what I'm talking about there. We also see that with the creek that runs along Gold Creek Road - which is actually the upper reaches of Moggill Creek. Those storm surges can be very forceful - as in washing cars and trucks off the road.

I still think that what happened was one of two possibilities:

1. Allison was hidden somewhere up near the scout camp (buried, hidden under vegetation, etc) and then washed down the creek, or:

2. Thrown off the bridge - but that would almost certainly cause injuries. And we don't know if any were found. They wouldn't necessarily be open wounds, that would cause bleeding (thinking of the defence claims here) but closed injuries such as broken bones, internal damage to things like spleen, liver, etc.

I really doubt that anyone would have TAKEN her down there. Even the police had to use ropes and gear to get near her.

 

[UnfoldingTruth]

It's not as though we hadn't had rains and flooding during the early part of the year but maybe when someone is in a flat panic, it wouldn't occur to them that a body could move via floodwater.

What would have been worse is if the body made it into the Brisbane River. It would have made it harder for QPS to decide where the body was originally placed, surely. IMO

Of course we are assuming there was mad flat panic and not cold calculation and planning.. Not saying it is..but going by all the other information, who knows if the killer was in a state of panic or taking the steps to ensure their plan was as intended.. Just a thought.

 

[BJsleuth]

I don't believe Allison was moved after initially being left somewhere else. i really don't think if GBC is the killer, that he could have done it. Police suspected him from day one. It would have been too difficult for him to slip back out and move the body.. I am sure they had close eyes on him. MOO

It was rumoured, here (I think) that there were chains so i'm wondering if ABC may have been attached to something so she didn't "float away" ensuring at some point, she would be found?

 

[UnfoldingTruth]

Oh, that's right. I had in my diary for today:

7.30pm Watch paint dry for 4 hours.

:floorlaugh:

 

[alicat]

Where would they park on Mount Crosby Road? Unless they park going outbound, but that is a heck of a walk with a body and you don't have much notice until you would see headlights from both ways.

Going inbound there is (was overgrown at the time) place to park, but the police would most likely have noticed the grass to be driven over if they did park there...

I wish my memory was better... I was driving home one night (don't know if it was that night or not) but saw a car parked on the outbound side of the road. It was a dark car but thought it was odd it was there. It was only around 8.45pm so probably not related, BUT it was strange to see a car there. Being a local I notice when cars are in weird places...

 

[alicat]

It was rumoured, here (I think) that there were chains so i'm wondering if ABC may have been attached to something so she didn't "float away" ensuring at some point, she would be found?

Someone hunted down the Coles trolley boy and found no chains were missing.

To be honest, I didn't know chains were even used anymore. My understanding is it's those seat-belt looking things thesedays.

 

[UnfoldingTruth]

It was rumoured, here (I think) that there were chains so i'm wondering if ABC may have been attached to something so she didn't "float away" ensuring at some point, she would be found?

I am not sure I believe the chain rumour..I have no idea how that one actually started.. I had put it out of my mind really as rumour. But I guess we will only know whether any of these things are fact or not as information comes out at trial. (or perhaps some at comittal?)

MOO

 

[UnfoldingTruth]

Just to reinforce that point - if GBC did in fact do it, and if it was done for the insurance money - why wouldn't he have put the body somewhere where he knew that it WOULD be found? In other words, somewhere in the search area - there's plenty of bush around here! The fact that the body was found almost by a fluke, by a kayaker poking his craft's nose up Kholo Creek from the main river, and 14Km away from the search area, would seem to suggest that he DIDN'T want the body found.....

Respectfully snipped...

It is a good question..IF GBC did it and IF he did not want her found, how does that help in his immediate financial situation.. if the body is not found it is 7 yrs isnt it before a missing person can be declared dead and life insurance claimed?

But theres a couple of IF's in there, even if guilty, we don't know he did not want her found.. Maybe its more just a case of not thinking it through..as with a few other things that are alleged.. some of it all very silly. IMO

 

[stayinterested]

I do wonder if the interfering with corpse charge was when it was realised a body was needed for insurance and that she was moved where she could be found - I find that horrible to think of, but I do wonder.
All I know is that if a loved one of mine was missing I would come clean on my sins just so I could be eliminated and the police could start actively looking for the real perpetrator. All people have faults and a lot of people have things they are ashamed of - I think the police are more than world weary to know that - they know how people react - I look at the Singh/Sima case and that poor family have worn their dirty linen in the pursuit of truth for their loved ones.

 

[BJsleuth]

Someone hunted down the Coles trolley boy and found no chains were missing.

To be honest, I didn't know chains were even used anymore. My understanding is it's those seat-belt looking things thesedays.

Thanks alicat. Yeah, they're a bit like a retractable dog lead now days I think.

I am not sure I believe the chain rumour..I have no idea how that one actually started.. I had put it out of my mind really as rumour. But I guess we will only know whether any of these things are fact or not as information comes out at trial. (or perhaps some at comittal?)

MOO

Yes it's just one of those "wait and see" things. It would be pretty obvious if there were chains that someone didn't want the body to move IMO that would be another silly move.

 

[BJsleuth]

I do wonder if the interfering with corpse charge was when it was realised a body was needed for insurance and that she was moved where she could be found - I find that horrible to think of, but I do wonder.
All I know is that if a loved one of mine was missing I would come clean on my sins just so I could be eliminated and the police could start actively looking for the real perpetrator. All people have faults and a lot of people have things they are ashamed of - I think the police are more than world weary to know that - they know how people react - I look at the Singh/Sima case and that poor family have worn their dirty linen in the pursuit of truth for their loved ones.

Here's an example of interfering with a corpse:

"He has also pleaded guilty to interfering with a corpse by dumping her body in bushland."

Not related to this case but just an explanation as to why that charge was brought.