No staging

madeleine

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if we take out of the picture everything we think was probably part of the staging (wrist ligatures,tape on mouth,garotte (?),ransom note,new panties)...what does it leave us with?

a 6years old dead female,bleeding from her vagina,who has been strangled and hit on the head

every cop on this planet willing to solve such a case would know who to start with
but this NEVER happened in this case
it happened,but on the other side...the defence team knew instantly who they needed to prepare a defence for and knew who to call in to enlighten them (J.Douglas was brought in because they wanted to know if JR is capable of this)

I am starting to accept the fact that it's not the Ramsey's who I have to blame for all the mess...this is what guilty people do,lie,spend money on lawyers,everything to get away with what they've done...

They were basically ALLOWED to walk away with it ...and this is what I can't accept...it happened from day one and NOTHING changed
 

madeleine

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what's JR's best defence?
it's not an intruder did it,it's PDI

sorry to repeat myself,but if I were JR I would send flowers and thank ST every single day for the rest of my life for all the PDI campaign.
I am NOT saying ST and JR had this master-plan to divert attention by pointing fingers on PR...no.
ST had his theory (like everybody else) and probably had no idea that he's helping JR so much with it(indirectly)

I think about something other people were talking about and it does raise a red flag.Why did ST continue to push the PDI theory AFTER finding out JB was chronically abused?Makes no sense at all.It doesn't fit.

Where (and most important,why) did all the "PR wrote the note" campaign start?Please go back in time and look at all the facts.All the experts and what they said.And yep,like DogC says,why did they eliminate JR as the writer so soon?Why are there no JR exemplars anywhere?

Just a few thoughts
 

eileenhawkeye

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what's JR's best defence?
it's not an intruder did it,it's PDI

sorry to repeat myself,but if I were JR I would send flowers and thank ST every single day for the rest of my life for all the PDI campaign.
I am NOT saying ST and JR had this master-plan to divert attention by pointing fingers on PR...no.
ST had his theory (like everybody else) and probably had no idea that he's helping JR so much with it(indirectly)

I think about something other people were talking about and it does raise a red flag.Why did ST continue to push the PDI theory AFTER finding out JB was chronically abused?Makes no sense at all.It doesn't fit.

Where (and most important,why) did all the "PR wrote the note" campaign start?Please go back in time and look at all the facts.All the experts and what they said.And yep,like DogC says,why did they eliminate JR as the writer so soon?Why are there no JR exemplars anywhere?

Just a few thoughts

I believe it started in March 1997:

John Ramsey could not have written a ransom note found in the family home the day his 6 - year - old daughter, JonBenet, was found strangled in the basement, people close to the investigation say.

Two groups of handwriting experts, one from the Colorado Bureau of Investigation and the other hired by the Ramsey family, have reached that conclusion, they say.

However, the same two groups of experts differ on whether the girl's mother could have written the note. CBI document examiners have concluded that comparisons with samples provided by Patsy Ramsey do not provide enough evidence to confirm or deny her authorship of the three - page note, an official said.

Meanwhile, unidentified experts hired by the Ramsey family have concluded there is a slight chance Patsy Ramsey wrote the note, but that it's "highly unlikely."

Some features of the handwriting samples JonBenet Ramsey's mother gave police resemble the writing in a ransom note she found hours before her dead daughter was discovered, the Rocky Mountain News reported yesterday.

Another interesting RN tidbit is this:

Whoever wrote the ransom note for 6-year-old JonBenet Ramsey alluded to her father's Navy service and misspelled four words, perhaps deliberately, a newspaper reported Thursday.

People asked by police to give handwriting samples were told to write the acronym "SBTC," believed to be a reference to the now-defunct U.S. naval training center at Subic Bay in the Philippines, the Rocky Mountain News quoted unidentified sources as saying.

It makes it sound like SBTC is definitely Subic Bay...yet today, SBTC is seen as a huge mystery of the case?
 

Chrishope

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I believe it started in March 1997:





Another interesting RN tidbit is this:



It makes it sound like SBTC is definitely Subic Bay...yet today, SBTC is seen as a huge mystery of the case?


I've been to the Naval base at Subic Bay many times. I had never heard it referred to as Subic Bay Training Center, though I can't say that wasn't the official name, or that there wasn't some sort of training center there. We called it Subic Bay, and it was a repair/replenishment base, as well as an R&R place.

I have never seen the slightest reason to think S.B.T.C. refers the the naval base at Subic Bay.
 

douce40

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what's JR's best defence?
it's not an intruder did it,it's PDI

sorry to repeat myself,but if I were JR I would send flowers and thank ST every single day for the rest of my life for all the PDI campaign.
I am NOT saying ST and JR had this master-plan to divert attention by pointing fingers on PR...no.
ST had his theory (like everybody else) and probably had no idea that he's helping JR so much with it(indirectly)

I think about something other people were talking about and it does raise a red flag.Why did ST continue to push the PDI theory AFTER finding out JB was chronically abused?Makes no sense at all.It doesn't fit.

Where (and most important,why) did all the "PR wrote the note" campaign start?Please go back in time and look at all the facts.All the experts and what they said.And yep,like DogC says,why did they eliminate JR as the writer so soon?Why are there no JR exemplars anywhere?

Just a few thoughts

Yep Steve Thomas wrote quite a convincing book that absolutely focused on PR. His interview vs the Ramsey's on Larry King showed little if any disdain towards JR but definite angst towards PR. Thomas was adamant about the previous vaginal trauma despite a fierce objection from John, yet he couldn't see through John's smokescreen.

Maybe JR had a plan A and a plan B.
Plan A- something along the lines of DocG theory or maybe something a little simpler like dumping the body at an opportune time(which never came). Obviously that would have implicated kidnappers killed/abused her.
Arguing with Patsy about calling the police could look suspicious to her and stick out in her mind. JR was acting the concerned dad and non-argumentative so Patsy would defend him and his response to the alleged kidnapping. He didn't want anyone to see him squirm, or arouse ANY suspicion.

Plan B- subtly manipulate the ransom note and garrote to mildly implicate Patsy. This would only matter if body was found/produced in the house.

The practice note being scrapped (and other pages missing) could have been JR deciding that it would point more suspicion to Patsy, or someone who knows him, if it was solely addressed to JR and littered with personal info. There were phrases common in Patsy and John's writing and dialect. The length of the RN may have been JR's confidence that he could mask his writing and steer LE towards PR and away from him.

A long ransom note has to mean confidence in deception.
 

madeleine

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Yep Steve Thomas wrote quite a convincing book that absolutely focused on PR. His interview vs the Ramsey's on Larry King showed little if any disdain towards JR but definite angst towards PR. Thomas was adamant about the previous vaginal trauma despite a fierce objection from John, yet he couldn't see through John's smokescreen.

Maybe JR had a plan A and a plan B.
Plan A- something along the lines of DocG theory or maybe something a little simpler like dumping the body at an opportune time(which never came). Obviously that would have implicated kidnappers killed/abused her.
Arguing with Patsy about calling the police could look suspicious to her and stick out in her mind. JR was acting the concerned dad and non-argumentative so Patsy would defend him and his response to the alleged kidnapping. He didn't want anyone to see him squirm, or arouse ANY suspicion.

Plan B- subtly manipulate the ransom note and garrote to mildly implicate Patsy. This would only matter if body was found/produced in the house.

The practice note being scrapped (and other pages missing) could have been JR deciding that it would point more suspicion to Patsy, or someone who knows him, if it was solely addressed to JR and littered with personal info. There were phrases common in Patsy and John's writing and dialect. The length of the RN may have been JR's confidence that he could mask his writing and steer LE towards PR and away from him.

A long ransom note has to mean confidence in deception.

Yep re plan A.
Re plan B...I don't think he ever wanted to pin it on PR,no matter how evil and sneaky I find him to be...BUT it was convenient for him that OTHERS started to point fingers at her.He was always insulted and angry when cops tried to implicate HIM,he wasn't THAT bothered when they blamed her.

Re ST (so that it's clear)...he was my hero and I trusted everything that was coming out of his mouth until I read his deposition and learned that many things he said in his book were hearsay,second hand information,stuff that can't be proven,some of it speculation.I was disappointed.Cause I really liked the guy in the beginning.I have his book and I read it many times,even if I disagree with his theory,there is a lot of info in it.
 

madeleine

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I've been to the Naval base at Subic Bay many times. I had never heard it referred to as Subic Bay Training Center, though I can't say that wasn't the official name, or that there wasn't some sort of training center there. We called it Subic Bay, and it was a repair/replenishment base, as well as an R&R place.

I have never seen the slightest reason to think S.B.T.C. refers the the naval base at Subic Bay.

JR says in one of the interviews that it might not be a T but a J....could this mean anything?after all,he is the one enjoying all those "little,funny clues" and seems so proud of how clever the killer was.
 

Chrishope

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JR says in one of the interviews that it might not be a T but a J....could this mean anything?after all,he is the one enjoying all those "little,funny clues" and seems so proud of how clever the killer was.


I can't imagine what SBJC would mean.
 

eileenhawkeye

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Steve's book did not come out until August 2000. I'm guessing the loud speculation about Patsy started in March 1997 when the report about her handwriting came out. I wonder...who was the main suspect prior to that? Like who did the media and public lean towards? I think "Patsy did it" theory (in the 90s) was also fueled by the recent Susan Smith case, and the whole beauty pageant footage, so like the stage mom thing. And also Patsy's dramatics during the CNN interview.

I thought this line from an article I posted above to be interesting:

Meanwhile, unidentified experts hired by the Ramsey family have concluded there is a slight chance Patsy Ramsey wrote the note, but that it's "highly unlikely."

Someone in the Ramsey camp gave permission for that result (that there's a slight chance Patsy wrote the RN) to be released to the press. But why? They had to know that the media would go nuts over it. Saying that the experts hired by the family say that there's a chance the mother wrote it...umm why would you let that out to the media?
 

madeleine

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http://www.enewhope.org/nhn/nhn-player.php?resourceid=46
http://www.enewhope.org/nhn/nhn-player.php?resourceid=48


I wanted to post the links to their last interview together but the links are no longer working :(
it was that interview with the hawaiian pastor

you can see so well what this "couple" is about....the leader and his follower...she barely says something,he almost pushes her off the couch when talking so excited about him him him again,it's like she's not even there...and sometimes it feels like she asks him for permission to speak (eye contact)...and then she looks at him something like "was it okay?"...and the way he is always studying her when she speaks...he's a control freak...I am not that crazy when I compare him to J.MacDonalds and M.Peterson (staircase murderer)...they had families as well but they didn't care what their families went through whenever they wanted to play tv star...and the passion they liked to talk about themselves with....disgusting...huge ego's...it's ALWAYS about THEM...they just can't stay away from the spotlight...if you got away with it at least be smart and shut up,let the dogs sleep (for Burke's sake at least!),fly under the radar...but no....it seems like a drug to them
 

madeleine

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Steve's book did not come out until August 2000. I'm guessing the loud speculation about Patsy started in March 1997 when the report about her handwriting came out. I wonder...who was the main suspect prior to that? Like who did the media and public lean towards? I think "Patsy did it" theory (in the 90s) was also fueled by the recent Susan Smith case, and the whole beauty pageant footage, so like the stage mom thing. And also Patsy's dramatics during the CNN interview.

I thought this line from an article I posted above to be interesting:



Someone in the Ramsey camp gave permission for that result (that there's a slight chance Patsy wrote the RN) to be released to the press. But why? They had to know that the media would go nuts over it. Saying that the experts hired by the family say that there's a chance the mother wrote it...umm why would you let that out to the media?

someone else mentioned it earlier and maybe he/she was right (sorry can't recall now who )....maybe the cops targeted her because they felt she was the weak link?
 

BOESP

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Rather than targeting Patsy, I'd say the best evidence led the investigators to believe Patsy did it.
 

madeleine

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Rather than targeting Patsy, I'd say the best evidence led the investigators to believe Patsy did it.

this best evidence is being thrown under the bus by ST himself in his depo
and besides ST which of them were strong PDI's?
not Kolar
not Arndt
not Lou Smit
not Kane (whenever he said something ,he meant both parents)
who?
 

madeleine

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ST-it was wrong to ignore the fact that MAYBE it was JR or BR who did it,why dismiss the 2 possibilities so quickly?he did exactly what L.Smit did and we all agreed that it was WRONG.

why did they jump from Patsy might have written the note directly to Patsy did it??
her writing it (IF she did) doesn't mean she killed JB,nor does it show/prove how much she really knew about what happened
 

BOESP

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this best evidence is being thrown under the bus by ST himself in his depo
and besides ST which of them were strong PDI's?
not Kolar
not Arndt
not Lou Smit
not Kane (whenever he said something ,he meant both parents)
who?

First, I didn't say anyone was a "strong PDI." Trujillo, and apparently Alex Hunter, plus some FBI investigators believed Patsy was the most likely suspect. Patsy also agreed via public television that whoever wrote the note was the killer. I could probably think of others but listing the names you gave does not prove Thomas's theory as invalid. It just proves there was more than one opinion. In my opinion, Steve Thomas had access to evidence the public knows nothing about and the things he stated in his book make more sense to me than any other I've heard.

Thomas, Kolar, Arndt and Smit all disagreed with each other so picking and choosing which one to believe is optional.

My original point was I do not believe Patsy was targeted. I believe evidence indicated she was a suspect (or under the umbrella of suspicion). That also does not mean John was not involved with either the death of JonBenet or the staging-within-staging. I still think Patsy is the most likely Responsible.
 

madeleine

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First, I didn't say anyone was a "strong PDI." Trujillo, and apparently Alex Hunter, plus some FBI investigators believed Patsy was the most likely suspect. Patsy also agreed via public television that whoever wrote the note was the killer. I could probably think of others but listing the names you gave does not prove Thomas's theory as invalid. It just proves there was more than one opinion. In my opinion, Steve Thomas had access to evidence the public knows nothing about and the things he stated in his book make more sense to me than any other I've heard.

Thomas, Kolar, Arndt and Smit all disagreed with each other so picking and choosing which one to believe is optional.

@bold
weird that she chose to throw herself under the bus then by making that statement

one of the biggest reasons I disagree with his theory is the fact that he ignores the most important thing about this murder> sexual abuse .it's not like this aspect is not related to what happened
 

BOESP

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@bold
weird that she chose to throw herself under the bus then by making that statement

one of the biggest reasons I disagree with his theory is the fact that he ignores the most important thing about this murder> sexual abuse .it's not like this aspect is not related to what happened

I'd call it a skilled investigator throwing Patsy off balance and she came out with something truthful.

I see corporal cleansing as abusive physical contact which, in JonBenet's case, probably involved her private region. What precipitated that corporal cleansing could have been one or more triggers. Linda Pugh, the housekeeper, stated she heard JonBenet scream many times when Patsy had JonBenet in the bathroom. That sounds like possible abuse to me. Or maybe JonBenet was just a brat who was allowed to scream bloody murder because something non-violent didn't suit her, but I doubt it.
 

madeleine

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I respect your opinion ,maybe you're right and PDI (I didn't rule her out completely)..but if PDI,she's already dead,nothing can happen except maybe finding out the truth (I doubt it)...if BDI,nothing can be done either...but if JDI ....it drives me nuts that he got away with sexual abuse and murder...if JDI,there still is a chance for the killer to PAY.
 

BOESP

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No problem.

Imo, I don't see how John Ramsey could not know exactly what happened and by whom. The Grand Jury indicted both of them so, imo, that means both were involved to one degree or another, either before or after the fact. It was a cleverly worded indictment.
 
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