Norway Norway - Isdalen, WhtFem 503UFNOR, multiple aliases, multilingual, Nov'70

[Sjöberg]

Why was she able to almost spell the very difficult Slovene word "Ljubljana" on a hotel registration if she wasn't familiar with the city?

But... Is this objectively a difficult spelling? And to speakers of what languages? I don't speak any Slovene, but we did learn all capitals of all countries way back in middle school and I don't remember Ljubljana being a particularly difficult one for anyone. The "blj" moment is a bit tricky there, but once you've actually read all letters out, it's not difficult, it's written absolutely phonetically (unlike 95% words in the English language, that are much harder to spell). Moreover, as she did make a mistake in the spelling I would say that it basically rules out anyone from Slovenia or even neighbouring countries, as they would simply see the correct spelling too often.

As for haplogroups, H 24 is found pretty much everywhere in Europe, especially in the west. There are places where it's more common and places where it's more rare, but it does not really mean anything. I myself have a rare haplogroup for my country and my roots are just as local as our neighbours, if not even more so. Haplogroups are very old. But it would line up nicely with Germany and Belgium, but also Romani, Basque, pretty much everywhere.

 

[gabagool]

But... Is this objectively a difficult spelling? And to speakers of what languages? I don't speak any Slovene, but we did learn all capitals of all countries way back in middle school and I don't remember Ljubljana being a particularly difficult one for anyone. The "blj" moment is a bit tricky there, but once you've actually read all letters out, it's not difficult, it's written absolutely phonetically (unlike 95% words in the English language, that are much harder to spell). Moreover, as she did make a mistake in the spelling I would say that it basically rules out anyone from Slovenia or even neighbouring countries, as they would simply see the correct spelling too often.

As for haplogroups, H 24 is found pretty much everywhere in Europe, especially in the west. There are places where it's more common and places where it's more rare, but it does not really mean anything. I myself have a rare haplogroup for my country and my roots are just as local as our neighbours, if not even more so. Haplogroups are very old. But it would line up nicely with Germany and Belgium, but also Romani, Basque, pretty much everywhere.

its not just that it's tricky to spell, but it was an odd choice when she had liege, brussels and paris(?) in other identities. ljubljana is really niche and at the time yugoslavia was closely observed by the west. why ljubljana? why with a weird name?

 

[ifindedout]

been doing some reading and found a source that says no more than half a million roma people lived in europe in the interwar period. there are also mentions of roma populations in slovakia. however, in yugoslavia (kingdom), roma were not allowed in major cities so she probably wasn't from ljubljana per say. the odd thing for her being from up north is that there weren't many roma in germany, scandinavia etc. if those communities were small it doesn't make sense to me that nobody noticed her gone, unless her mother/grandmother had cut ties with her people previously View attachment 494594

IMO the text in the image looks like (Serbo-)Croatian, as it has the ć which Slovenian lacks.

 

[gabagool]

IMO the text in the image looks like (Serbo-)Croatian, as it has the ć which Slovenian lacks.

its from a croatian newspaper but at the time it was one country so they spoke about slovenia, serbia etc

 

[djtopcat]

Wait a minute, everyone thinks she misspelled Ljubljana on the hotel card, but look at it closer. I'm no handwriting expert, but it looks like she wrote really fast and sloppily on the card to begin with. I think she did intend to spell it Ljubljana, and just fudged completing the j so it looks like a dotted i instead.
Now if all she was doing is copying off a faked passport she had with her all this speculation goes out the window. BUT! I really think she could read and write, and speak in Slovene. And now I'm leaning very strong Yugoslavian connection. And I still would love to know which era she was pulling out the "Kreisleitung" term from?
Like I stated it's either an old memory of hers from WWII, or the GDR 1949-1990. I've researched this thoroughly, even chatted with a former East German for confirmation. The Stasi used the term too.

 

[gabagool]

Wait a minute, everyone thinks she misspelled Ljubljana on the hotel card, but look at it closer. I'm no handwriting expert, but it looks like she wrote really fast and sloppily on the card to begin with. I think she did intend to spell it Ljubljana, and just fudged completing the j so it looks like a dotted i instead.
Now if all she was doing is copying off a faked passport she had with her all this speculation goes out the window. BUT! I really think she could read and write, and speak in Slovene. And now I'm leaning very strong Yugoslavian connection. And I still would love to know which era she was pulling out the "Kreisleitung" term from?
Like I stated it's either an old memory of hers from WWII, or the GDR 1949-1990. I've researched this thoroughly, even chatted with a former East German for confirmation. The Stasi used the term too.

if it is in fact an i not a j:

 

[djtopcat]

if it is in fact an i not a j:View attachment 494894

She still spelled it as someone who knows Slovene (Ljub....) So it doesn't really matter what the city would be spelled like in other languages. Remember she spelled Brussels in German form.
If there's a connection to WWII era Yugoslavia it's likely complicated. Yugoslavia was originally allied with the Axis powers in 1941 then declined transit through the country which pissed off Hitler so Germany,Italy,Hungary and Bulgaria carved it up as occupiers in retaliation. Then the Yugoslavian communist partisans under Tito joined the Russian allies fight to defeat the Axis. She could have been communist, she could have been anti-communist. Just like she could have been pro Israel, or she could have been anti-Israel if there is an Israeli connection in 1970 as many have theorized. When the test results of being born in pre WWII Nuremberg Nazi Germany first became public a lot of people thought she could have been Jewish, and was sent west to escape danger in Germany as a child. But she is H24 on the maternal side, this pretty much rules out being Jewish, since it is determined from the mother's side. However H24 can include Roma i.e. gypsies, and they also were in danger in Nazi Germany so that's more of a real possibility in my mind. But nothing can be completely ruled out in this case. She could have also had a German, or Axis member father loyal to the Nazis, and carried anti-Semitic sentiments her whole life. I never heard any follow up to this story, but it could make a lot of sense if true.

The Isdal woman: an explosive new lead points to a Swiss banker

New leads in a famous unsolved case of a woman's death in Norway point to a notorious Geneva banker who funded terrorism and revered Hitler.

www.nzz.ch

 

[gabagool]

She still spelled it as someone who knows Slovene (Ljub....) So it doesn't really matter what the city would be spelled like in other languages. Remember she spelled Brussels in German form.
If there's a connection to WWII era Yugoslavia it's likely complicated. Yugoslavia was originally allied with the Axis powers in 1941 then declined transit through the country which pissed off Hitler so Germany,Italy,Hungary and Bulgaria carved it up as occupiers in retaliation. Then the Yugoslavian communist partisans under Tito joined the Russian allies fight to defeat the Axis. She could have been communist, she could have been anti-communist. Just like she could have been pro Israel, or she could have been anti-Israel if there is an Israeli connection in 1970 as many have theorized. When the test results of being born in pre WWII Nuremberg Nazi Germany first became public a lot of people thought she could have been Jewish, and was sent west to escape danger in Germany as a child. But she is H24 on the maternal side, this pretty much rules out being Jewish, since it is determined from the mother's side. However H24 can include Roma i.e. gypsies, and they also were in danger in Nazi Germany so that's more of a real possibility in my mind. But nothing can be completely ruled out in this case. She could have also had a German, or Axis member father loyal to the Nazis, and carried anti-Semitic sentiments her whole life. I never heard any follow up to this story, but it could make a lot of sense if true.

The Isdal woman: an explosive new lead points to a Swiss banker

New leads in a famous unsolved case of a woman's death in Norway point to a notorious Geneva banker who funded terrorism and revered Hitler.

www.nzz.ch

about the swiss banker thing, im really confused as to why it died down. it was announced like a case breaker and then nothing at all (also yugoslavia that allied with the nazis was a parliamentary monarchy and the partisan one was socialist and there was A lot going on there. i myself have several family members who have not been heard of since ww2. just disappeared)

 

[fred&edna]

I don't remember seeing this "swiss banker" info before. (Maybe I've just forgotten... either way, I'm reading it now)

 

[gabagool]

I don't remember seeing this "swiss banker" info before. (Maybe I've just forgotten... either way, I'm reading it now)

thoughts?

 

[fred&edna]

thoughts?

I'm still trying to decide. I'm not completely sold on the idea she had ties to Genoud directly, but I don't want to discount the possibility, either. It would be helpful to know if there's been any follow-up research to solidify or disprove.

 

[gabagool]

anyone got anything new, the cro archive is in shambles rn so i couldn't look into the udba thing

 

[gabagool]

about the swiss banker thing, im really confused as to why it died down. it was announced like a case breaker and then nothing at all (also yugoslavia that allied with the nazis was a parliamentary monarchy and the partisan one was socialist and there was A lot going on there. i myself have several family members who have not been heard of since ww2. just disappeared)

the second lj really does turn out as a li, just saw id written it like that without thinking (the j is shortened automatically for some reason when writing)

 

[outofthedark]

After evaluating the information and evidence posted on here, I am leading towards her being involved in a crime ring, and it’s the reason that she had various disguises and fake names. She was travelling between all the same countries in a short period of time at a frequency that would have peaked the suspicion of immigration and border authorities in all of the countries she visited, had she done all of it under her real name. She was also not travelling on a lot of money, which would have also set off suspicion with border and immigration.

It’s mentioned further back that the initial investigation was shut down pretty quickly by higher ups within Norway. There’s definitely a lot more about her that investigators have known or confirmed that probably would have caused a lot of embarrassment for the Norwegian government then and probably now, or the government wanting to avoid any diplomatic embarrassment with her country of origin.

 

[azure]

If Isdalen Woman is identified and her identity isn't classified*, will it be made public? I know privacy laws in Europe are extremely strict.


*I don't believe her identity would be classified, just excluding that possibility.