Seems LE is not too anxious to solve this case, otherwise her various passport photos would've been released to the public for help in identifying her. That leads me to believe she was indeed a spy whose identification would be trouble to the national security of whatever country she worked for. Rather strange way of silencing her; breaking her neck, forcing pills down her throat then setting her alight?? Who does that? ETA-i suppose it's possible that she simply ran into a serial killer who raped and killed her; was a rape test done? Where exactly was she burned; legs, torso, head? One report says she was naked when found, were her clothes nearby? I wonder if any of these questions and more is covered in the book?
Norway Norway - Isdalen, WhtFem 503UFNOR, multiple aliases, multilingual, Nov'70
- Thread starter laini
- Start date
The problem with the Mossad theory is that Operation Wrath of God (of which the Lillehammer Affair was a part) was in reaction to the Munich Olympics massacre, which was in 1972.
Also, Ms. Poyntz would have been ~87 when Jane Doe was found, so I think she's out.
What intrigues me is the spoons the monogram was filed off, but were the hallmarks? She could have easily gotten spoons without a monogram, so the fact that she had ones with the monogram filed off makes me think they were hers, a personal item she wanted to have with her. If the hallmarks were still on them, they could hold a clue to where she came from.
Irish_Eyes
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We're talking here about a case from 1970 - before Munich, so I'm not sure I understand your argument. What happened in 1972 couldn't possibly have been a part of the thinking of those governments seeking to gain intelligence in Norway in 1970. I don't think what happened in Munich makes the possibilty of her working for the Mossad or MI6 or the CIA or the KGB or anyone else any more or less likely.
Someone mentioned the Lillehammer affair and suggested she might be Mossad. I was simply saying what you're saying, that this all occurred before the impetus for Operation Wrath of God. Basically, I was saying that I'm inclined to think she wasn't Mossad because they were worried about other areas of the world at that time. She could still have been Mossad, but I'm more inclined to think she was from behind the Iron Curtain.
My apologies if I wasn't clear. Sometimes my fingers don't keep up with my thoughts and I leave out sentences without realizing it.
Upon further research, I'm wrong. Most of what I knew about Mossad in the 1960s was about their operations in South America. However, I've just read about them hijacking a boat full of uranium that left out of Antwerp in 1968 on the way to Italy.
And that's just what we know about.
And that's just what we know about.
Irish_Eyes
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I don't think we'll truly ever know. I don't usually say that about a case on here, but in this case, I do think some people know what happened, but they will never tell....
Especially if she's from someplace like Yugoslavia, since most of the government buildings were heavily damaged in the Siege of Sarajevo, I suspect a lot of the UDBA (the secret police) files were destroyed, although some did survive that were in Slovenia.
STANDREID
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I wonder if serial killer Sharon Kinne has been looked at. She escaped from a Mexican prison in December of 1969 and has not been seen since. Ms. Kinne would have been 31-years-old at the time of Isdal Woman's death.
LadyL
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I don't know if I just want you to be right or what but I image-googled Sharon Kinne and compared the doenetwork sketches and the features look hauntingly similar to me.
Beyond that though, I would like to know why you think there might be a connection. There has to be many other women who disappeared and had reason to create aliases - why did you choose Kinne as a viable possibility?
STANDREID
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I was trying to think of female fugitives and she was the only one I could think of who was in the right time frame. Probably not her but she should be eliminated if possible I think.
Swamp Fox Trot
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A bit more detail here: https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.slektfamiliehistoriskservice.org%2F44686681&edit-text=
I'm thinking, if she really did know Flemish, then she must be from Flanders, because who learns Flemish? But the investigators thought she was from southern Germany or Italy. (Maybe Switzerland?) The cops did interview the Italian photographer, who said she told him she was from a small town in South Africa. That would explain a Dutch accent.
I'm thinking, if she really did know Flemish, then she must be from Flanders, because who learns Flemish? But the investigators thought she was from southern Germany or Italy. (Maybe Switzerland?) The cops did interview the Italian photographer, who said she told him she was from a small town in South Africa. That would explain a Dutch accent.
Some more information on the case from Wikipedia,
'On 24 November, five days before the discovery of the woman, a local 26-year old man was hiking with friends around the same area. He reported to have come across a woman of foreign appearance, her face completely distorted by fear. He noted that the woman was dressed elegantly, although not appropriately for being outdoors, let alone hiking in the hills. As they passed each other she formed her mouth as if to say something but appeared intimidated by two black-coated men who followed her. The men also had a foreign appearance.
The 26-year-old contacted the police after hearing that a young woman was found dead in the same area. He immediately recognized her from the composite sketches, but according to him the policeman with whom he spoke answered, "Forget her, she was dispatched. The case will never be solved", he followed the advice, waiting 32 years to tell the story publicly.'
To me this is case of international espionage and skullduggery on a grand scale, involving the co-operation of numerous governments.
Why?
The policeman used some very loaded language here. The word dispatch is one which is used in diplomatic and political circles, eg 'We dispatched an envoy' or 'We sent a dispatch'.
Had this officer been informed by those higher up in the Norwegian Government that this was some type of assassination of a known 'enemy' spy?
His words imply that she had been 'dispatched' to the next world after having been 'dispatched' to spy in Norway.
'Forget her. The case will never be solved.' Now, that's a statement telling of a previous conversation with someone from an intelligence agency who knows what's going on if ever I heard one!
Realistically, what truly dutiful officer of the law would make such a statement as this when referring to a blatant homicide unless he'd received a full briefing as to who she was and orders from much higher up to quieten everything down?
I can only assert that the policemen to whom this 26 year old man spoke was either an agent of some type of government intelligence department who was given the task of impersonating a police officer to the ends of silencing this young man or that as I previously stated, was told the facts by someone much higher up.
I believe she was on the run from her own government as she was being 'retired' for some reason or she had simply been tracked down by agents who knew what she was and wanted her activities ended.
Apparently, her dental work had been done in Latin America, so she could have been a victim of any number of South American fascist dictators or she was from Cuba or Russia and had simply had the work done in Cuba, (or South America), either way, it's leaning toward a possibly Communist base for her activities.
The fact that the woman had a terrified look on her face and yet did not say anything might be an example of the fact that the men following her had already told her that her fate was sealed and that if she encountered anyone on the track and alerted them to their task then they would also 'dispatch' that person.
If she was an spy and therefore trained in violence she would well have known that these men would have killed this hiker before he could react to her pleas for help.
Perhaps, as she knew she was about to exit this world, her refusing to speak was the last virtuous act of a person who had throughout their professional life as a spy had to leave all traces of 'normal' morality behind (such as a spy must)?
According to Wikipedia her fingerprints had been sanded off. What killer amateurish to try and burn a body with a meager amount of petrol would think so deeply as to bring along sandpaper to sand off the fingerprints? That defies logic. These were trained professionals.
There were traces of 50 sleeping pills in her system. She also had carbon monoxide poisoning and had been bludgeoned to death in the neck area.
Sounds like spies trying to create a long and convoluted trail of confusion for whoever came to investigate, such as their modus operandi usually is.
The official ruling to these brutalities was oddly, 'suicide' which, given the facts, reeks of a cover up.
Considering they found a list of addresses she'd been written in code, one must ask why would she encode these addresses?
Perhaps because she knew she was being hunted and these addresses were safe houses that she could go to, hence the need to disguise and guard the addresses with encoding?
She had said that she had 'Six months to see the most beautiful places in Norway'.
Perhaps she speculated that those chasing her would most likely catch up with her within six months?
According to Wikipedia,
'The last observation of the so-called Isdal woman was when she checked out of room 407 at the Hotel Marin. She paid in cash and then asked to be picked up by a taxi. The woman was described as 30–40 years old, 164 cm tall, wide hips, small eyes and good-looking. Hotel staff said the woman stayed mainly in her room, and seemed to be on guard. Another hotel guest told police that she smoked South State cigarettes, a native Norwegian brand.
One witness testified that she had overheard the woman while she was talking to a man across the hall in a hotel in Bergen and that she heard the woman say "Ich komme bald" (German: "I am coming soon").'
East German Communist agents perhaps?
Could it be that she had said this to the man who was one of her soon to be murderers and he was in her hotel room that day? Had he said to her,
"Hurry we must go to meet the taxi?" To which she replied, "Ich komme bald"?
Was it the taxi driver, an embedded East German Communist agent, who was the other killer?
All of those differing intoxicants in her blood stream discovered post mortem suggest to me that those who were to kill her, mercifully offered her the option of taking a large number of sleeping pills in order to kill herself instead of them killing her. I can imagine spies allowing another spy to swallow an overdose of sleeping pills as they are trained to swallow poison if captured.
Then, when unconscious the killer had realized that she was not yet dead, this process perhaps taking enough time for them to share a bottle of liqueur (which she had packed along with the sandwiches for a picnic that she had unsuspectingly arranged with these men who had not yet revealed to her their true professions or intentions).
(A vehicle must have been present as the fuel they poured over her dead body probably came from it.)
After not dying from the sleeping pills quickly enough for their liking and perhaps spooked by the young man they had passed, the killers became impatient and so placed her inside her car or their car or perhaps even a hire car that either she or they had been using, (I wonder if this was investigated as a possibility) where they attempted to asphyxiate her with the exhaust fumes from the vehicle (I'm assuming they had some type of hose with them as they needed something to siphon out the petrol from the car tank).
Then, as she had not yet expired, one or both of the assassins used the (military style as per trained spies) karate chop to the neck to break her neck?
Lastly, the fact that whoever killed her made no effort to hide her body indicating that they wanted her to be discovered, so that either
those they worked for could be certain that she'd been killed or they simply wished to try to make the crime look as though it was some amateur murderer, (which is why they doused her in petrol and lit her body to appear amateurish, as so many inexperienced killers seem to assume that cremation is an easily carried out practice involving a few gallons of fuel, when in reality it takes upwards of 6 hours under butane gas jets running in the thousands of degrees to reduce a corpse to ash.)
Either way, whoever killed her made no great efforts to conceal her body other than taking her out into the mountains and this was most likely purely to isolate her to get away from potential witnesses, which indicates they weren't particularly worried about concealing her corpse to prevent an investigation as they knew, 'The case will never be solved'.
'On 24 November, five days before the discovery of the woman, a local 26-year old man was hiking with friends around the same area. He reported to have come across a woman of foreign appearance, her face completely distorted by fear. He noted that the woman was dressed elegantly, although not appropriately for being outdoors, let alone hiking in the hills. As they passed each other she formed her mouth as if to say something but appeared intimidated by two black-coated men who followed her. The men also had a foreign appearance.
The 26-year-old contacted the police after hearing that a young woman was found dead in the same area. He immediately recognized her from the composite sketches, but according to him the policeman with whom he spoke answered, "Forget her, she was dispatched. The case will never be solved", he followed the advice, waiting 32 years to tell the story publicly.'
To me this is case of international espionage and skullduggery on a grand scale, involving the co-operation of numerous governments.
Why?
The policeman used some very loaded language here. The word dispatch is one which is used in diplomatic and political circles, eg 'We dispatched an envoy' or 'We sent a dispatch'.
Had this officer been informed by those higher up in the Norwegian Government that this was some type of assassination of a known 'enemy' spy?
His words imply that she had been 'dispatched' to the next world after having been 'dispatched' to spy in Norway.
'Forget her. The case will never be solved.' Now, that's a statement telling of a previous conversation with someone from an intelligence agency who knows what's going on if ever I heard one!
Realistically, what truly dutiful officer of the law would make such a statement as this when referring to a blatant homicide unless he'd received a full briefing as to who she was and orders from much higher up to quieten everything down?
I can only assert that the policemen to whom this 26 year old man spoke was either an agent of some type of government intelligence department who was given the task of impersonating a police officer to the ends of silencing this young man or that as I previously stated, was told the facts by someone much higher up.
I believe she was on the run from her own government as she was being 'retired' for some reason or she had simply been tracked down by agents who knew what she was and wanted her activities ended.
Apparently, her dental work had been done in Latin America, so she could have been a victim of any number of South American fascist dictators or she was from Cuba or Russia and had simply had the work done in Cuba, (or South America), either way, it's leaning toward a possibly Communist base for her activities.
The fact that the woman had a terrified look on her face and yet did not say anything might be an example of the fact that the men following her had already told her that her fate was sealed and that if she encountered anyone on the track and alerted them to their task then they would also 'dispatch' that person.
If she was an spy and therefore trained in violence she would well have known that these men would have killed this hiker before he could react to her pleas for help.
Perhaps, as she knew she was about to exit this world, her refusing to speak was the last virtuous act of a person who had throughout their professional life as a spy had to leave all traces of 'normal' morality behind (such as a spy must)?
According to Wikipedia her fingerprints had been sanded off. What killer amateurish to try and burn a body with a meager amount of petrol would think so deeply as to bring along sandpaper to sand off the fingerprints? That defies logic. These were trained professionals.
There were traces of 50 sleeping pills in her system. She also had carbon monoxide poisoning and had been bludgeoned to death in the neck area.
Sounds like spies trying to create a long and convoluted trail of confusion for whoever came to investigate, such as their modus operandi usually is.
The official ruling to these brutalities was oddly, 'suicide' which, given the facts, reeks of a cover up.
Considering they found a list of addresses she'd been written in code, one must ask why would she encode these addresses?
Perhaps because she knew she was being hunted and these addresses were safe houses that she could go to, hence the need to disguise and guard the addresses with encoding?
She had said that she had 'Six months to see the most beautiful places in Norway'.
Perhaps she speculated that those chasing her would most likely catch up with her within six months?
According to Wikipedia,
'The last observation of the so-called Isdal woman was when she checked out of room 407 at the Hotel Marin. She paid in cash and then asked to be picked up by a taxi. The woman was described as 30–40 years old, 164 cm tall, wide hips, small eyes and good-looking. Hotel staff said the woman stayed mainly in her room, and seemed to be on guard. Another hotel guest told police that she smoked South State cigarettes, a native Norwegian brand.
One witness testified that she had overheard the woman while she was talking to a man across the hall in a hotel in Bergen and that she heard the woman say "Ich komme bald" (German: "I am coming soon").'
East German Communist agents perhaps?
Could it be that she had said this to the man who was one of her soon to be murderers and he was in her hotel room that day? Had he said to her,
"Hurry we must go to meet the taxi?" To which she replied, "Ich komme bald"?
Was it the taxi driver, an embedded East German Communist agent, who was the other killer?
All of those differing intoxicants in her blood stream discovered post mortem suggest to me that those who were to kill her, mercifully offered her the option of taking a large number of sleeping pills in order to kill herself instead of them killing her. I can imagine spies allowing another spy to swallow an overdose of sleeping pills as they are trained to swallow poison if captured.
Then, when unconscious the killer had realized that she was not yet dead, this process perhaps taking enough time for them to share a bottle of liqueur (which she had packed along with the sandwiches for a picnic that she had unsuspectingly arranged with these men who had not yet revealed to her their true professions or intentions).
(A vehicle must have been present as the fuel they poured over her dead body probably came from it.)
After not dying from the sleeping pills quickly enough for their liking and perhaps spooked by the young man they had passed, the killers became impatient and so placed her inside her car or their car or perhaps even a hire car that either she or they had been using, (I wonder if this was investigated as a possibility) where they attempted to asphyxiate her with the exhaust fumes from the vehicle (I'm assuming they had some type of hose with them as they needed something to siphon out the petrol from the car tank).
Then, as she had not yet expired, one or both of the assassins used the (military style as per trained spies) karate chop to the neck to break her neck?
Lastly, the fact that whoever killed her made no effort to hide her body indicating that they wanted her to be discovered, so that either
those they worked for could be certain that she'd been killed or they simply wished to try to make the crime look as though it was some amateur murderer, (which is why they doused her in petrol and lit her body to appear amateurish, as so many inexperienced killers seem to assume that cremation is an easily carried out practice involving a few gallons of fuel, when in reality it takes upwards of 6 hours under butane gas jets running in the thousands of degrees to reduce a corpse to ash.)
Either way, whoever killed her made no great efforts to conceal her body other than taking her out into the mountains and this was most likely purely to isolate her to get away from potential witnesses, which indicates they weren't particularly worried about concealing her corpse to prevent an investigation as they knew, 'The case will never be solved'.
Subscribing and hoping more info will be forthcoming.
Surprised that this case has not received more attention from the media.
http://translate.google.ca/translat...vinnen-operasjon-isotopsy/175378/&prev=search
"Review from The Norwegian Book Database
The book is based on an event in Bergen in 1970, when a young woman was found dead under suspicious circumstances. The case has for years pending in local newspapers and is known as Isdal case. Both NCIS, POT, military and embassies, Interpol, Secret Service and the CIA was involved in the case. It has never been solved, it has never succeeded police in identifying the woman who had nine different identities and passports. The novel is based on documentary material from the investigation and interviews with police officers and others who followed the case, parts of the investigation data is identical to or somewhat compressed renditions. The events are set into the dramatic big political conditions that took place at the time between east and west.
Bokdetaljer
Publisher Page Publishing
Publication 2002
Format Paperback
ISBN13 9788299656412
EAN 9788299656412
Genre Crime
Featured spot Bergen
Language Norsk
Pages 239"
Surprised that this case has not received more attention from the media.
http://translate.google.ca/translat...vinnen-operasjon-isotopsy/175378/&prev=search
"Review from The Norwegian Book Database
The book is based on an event in Bergen in 1970, when a young woman was found dead under suspicious circumstances. The case has for years pending in local newspapers and is known as Isdal case. Both NCIS, POT, military and embassies, Interpol, Secret Service and the CIA was involved in the case. It has never been solved, it has never succeeded police in identifying the woman who had nine different identities and passports. The novel is based on documentary material from the investigation and interviews with police officers and others who followed the case, parts of the investigation data is identical to or somewhat compressed renditions. The events are set into the dramatic big political conditions that took place at the time between east and west.
Bokdetaljer
Publisher Page Publishing
Publication 2002
Format Paperback
ISBN13 9788299656412
EAN 9788299656412
Genre Crime
Featured spot Bergen
Language Norsk
Pages 239"
Al Ka
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It is pretty normal for continental Europeans to speak 2-3 languages fluently. I speak badly six ( but I ain't no spy :giggle: ) , not saying she might not be. In Holland children at school learn 2-3 languages on top of Dutch, usually English, French or German. Regular TV there broadcasts channels from other big European countries so you can click through English, German, French, Italian or Spanish channels. I assume it is quite similar in Belgium and I think it was not too different back in 70' as both Holland and Belgium even though very small, were quite powerful nations with many colonies around the world.
It is quite interesting that quite a few articles do mention that she spoke Belgian or Flemish rather than Dutch. I do speak Dutch but as non native I personally do not recognize the difference between both when hearing it. Real Flemish is quite rare though and only spoken in Belgium, so someone must have recognized it when spoken to her. All her aliases are mix of French, Dutch and German names. If she have not grown up in Belgium, then she definitely lived there for number of years.
Belgium has 3 official languages, Dutch (Flemish) (mainly spoken up north), French (usually in South) and German (very small part in East). Whoever spoke French, was considered higher class or richer. In European Courts and other law institution is spoken in French till this day. Not many French speakers spoke Dutch though, however quite a few Dutch speakers spoke French as well. Brussels (rich business and political European hub) is considered bilingual where many speak both French and Dutch. Not to mention that in Brussels are also headquarters of European Union (established in 1957) and also headquarters of NATO (moved there in 1967).
For all those reasons I do think she probably came from or lived in northern Belgium or Brussels for quite some time and as traveled extensively she was definitely doing some kind of business, murky or not.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belgium
PS: on her mentioning being South African - I think its bull. South Africa was Dutch colony and they do speak old Dutch over there. I have spoken to few South African without any major problems. For her to lie about her origins and trying to pass for South African anywhere in Europe or in Norway for that matter would be quite easy (speaking Dutch is not that spread here so not many can verify her real origins), however if she bumped into Dutch, Belgian or South African she would be quickly uncovered. But hey, what are the chances of being caught out in that lie disclosing that to Italian in Norway...
To add to the above suggested countries that may have influenced her alias's, the name Fennella is typically Scottish , also noting she requested porridge.
The true test there, imo, is whether she put salt or sugar on that porridge?
The true test there, imo, is whether she put salt or sugar on that porridge?
Maybe i missed it, but wonder if the Italian photographer took her picture and if he is still alive?
Could a former actress pull off accents?
http://www.doenetwork.org/cases/436dfca.html
"Jean Elizabeth Spangler
Missing since October 7, 1949 from Los Angeles, California".
http://www.doenetwork.org/cases/436dfca.html
"Jean Elizabeth Spangler
Missing since October 7, 1949 from Los Angeles, California".