Canada - Numerous pedestrians struck by van near Yonge and Finch, Toronto, Apr 2018 *guilty*

[MaryG12]

I had to look up the word incel - never heard it before - learned something new.

 

[dotr]

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/van-attack-victims-identified-1.4638102

These are the 10 people killed in the van attack. Top row, from left to right: Anne Marie D'Amico, 30, Dorothy Sewell, 80, Renuka Amarasingha, 45, Munir Najjar, 85, Chul Min (Eddie) Kang, 45, Mary Elizabeth (Betty) Forsyth, 94, Sohe Chung, 22, Andrea Bradden, 33, Ji Hun Kim, 22, Geraldine Brady, 83. (CBC)

"[The families] have suffered a terrible and unspeakable tragedy that is unimaginable to everybody," said Huyer

.

Suspect Alek Minassian, 25, has been charged with 10 counts of first-degree murder and 13 counts of attempted murder. He will be charged with three more counts of attempted murder at his next court appearance, Toronto police Insp. Bryan Bott said.

At least 12 injured people remain in hospital, said Bott. Sunnybrook Hospital told CBC News on Friday that five of the 12 remain in critical condition, while three are in serious condition.

A vigil will be held Sunday night to honour the victims of the van attack. CBC News will have special coverage of the #TorontoStrong vigil in Mel Lastman Square at 7 p.m. ET.

 

[Fairy1]

Why do most women refuse to date unattractive men unless the man has the “right combo” as you phrased it? Would you agree that in many cases a highly unattractive woman often can and does “get a man” if she has the “”right combo?”
Not arguing your point about men who become violent, but society and culture has become what it is because of the actions and behaviours of both men and women.

Most women? Not me! My husband and I are not what you would consider to be a "traditional" couple. I'm taller and, by societal standards, more attractive. And we didn't have a pot to pi$$ in when we got together. But he is everything good a man SHOULD be. He's honest and smart and funny and real. That's why I adore him.

As with all humans, it's unfair and dangerous to label any group of people as one thing or another. I believe the mindset that led to this crime (and others) has more to do with the inability to look within and be accountable for one's own shortcomings. IMO.

 

[bluesneakers]

How to watch, listen to vigil for Yonge St. van attack on CBC News

CBC News will have special coverage of the public vigil to honour the the victims of Monday's Yonge Street van attack on Sunday night.

At 7 p.m. ET Sunday, a #TorontoStrong vigil will be held at Mel Lastman Square on Yonge Street, steps from where the attack took place.

CBC News Network at 6 p.m. ET
CBC Radio One at 7 p.m. ET
Live streaming on CBC.ca/Toronto
CBC Toronto Facebook
Periscope
CBC News YouTube channel

 

[Snoopster]

Why do most women refuse to date unattractive men unless the man has the “right combo” as you phrased it? Would you agree that in many cases a highly unattractive woman often can and does “get a man” if she has the “”right combo?”
Not arguing your point about men who become violent, but society and culture has become what it is because of the actions and behaviours of both men and women.

Not seeing that. Men are much more focused on the looks of their partner than women are. That's the biggest factor that seems to influence them. Women are more emotionally based and "generally" (a HUGE generally) care more about personality of their partner. (That's not to dismiss that some women are attracted to power and money.)

One thing that I find ironic is that non-attractive men (over-rating, or is it over-looking, their own looks) think that they 'deserve' attractive women and often dismiss women that have looks similar to their level. I've always wondered about the guy that looks in the mirror at his disheveled pudgy self and then belittled women who are non model-beautiful.

Of course women aren't perfect either. We are all trying to find our way in this silly thing called life. Hence we must recognize our failings, while forgiving them.

 

[cujenn81]

The Daily Mail had some clips from the Incel Reddit group. These men did not want to go out with women of their own level of attractiveness, whom they called 'pigs'. They wanted the prettiest girls and they had just as much hate for the men who had social skills better than theirs, who dated them.

And so much emphasis is put on his Aspergers or Austism, why are girls who suffer the same conditions not out there murdering and setting up hate groups?

I remember reading Elliot Rodgers' entire manifesto when it was released and the whole thing was beyond disgusting. He talked about how he would force all women into hard labor (or kill them) if he were president. He talked about the pleasure he would get from watching them from his high tower above them. Of course, he said, he would hand pick a select few to be spared who would have sex with him whenever he wanted. According to him, they would serve no other purpose than to please him and to put their reproduction systems to good use. Oh, how I wish he'd survived only so a lovely lady could have pulled a Lorena Bobbitt and forced him to suffer the rest of his days with a broken, reattached penis.

ETA: Was that too harsh? [emoji56]

 

[Snoopster]

I remember reading Elliot Rodgers' entire manifesto when it was released and the whole thing was beyond disgusting. He talked about how he would force all women into hard labor (or kill them) if he were president. He talked about the pleasure he would get from watching them from his high tower above them. Of course, he said, he would hand pick a select few to be spared who would have sex with him whenever he wanted. According to him, they would serve no other purpose than to please him and to put their reproduction systems to good use. Oh, how I wish he'd survived only so a lovely lady could have pulled a Lorena Bobbitt and forced him to suffer the rest of his days with a broken, reattached penis.

ETA: Was that too harsh? [emoji56]

No, definitely not too harsh! :bigstick::bowdown::aktion:

 

[Eloise]

Why do most women refuse to date unattractive men unless the man has the “right combo” as you phrased it? Would you agree that in many cases a highly unattractive woman often can and does “get a man” if she has the “”right combo?”
Not arguing your point about men who become violent, but society and culture has become what it is because of the actions and behaviours of both men and women.

I couldn't disagree with this more. For one thing, attractive is relative and a personal choice. Perusing the weddings section of any newspaper or wedding blog, you'll see loads of "unattractive" people of both biological sexes getting married. Personality and attraction are individual things that defy definition. A person that ticks all the boxes of "conventionally attractive" could be an asshat of a human being that finds it hard to keep a partner. A less attractive person with charisma can have no trouble at all finding partners. Heck a LOT of men who find it very easy to date aren't conventionally attractive at all (eg Mick Jagger, for example). I don't think this can be generalised to "women only want hot men" at ALL. Not even close.

In fact study after study shows that if you want to get very evolutionary psych about it*, it's MEN who are attracted to attractive, pretty, youthful women as these attributes tend to roughly align with fertility and women tend to be attracted to older men with resources (ie money, but that's dependent on the society - in other societies those resources could be anything) because that aligns with being able to provide for the reproducing woman and offspring.

These types of MGTOW/red pill/incel/MRA individuals blame not being able to get women on being unattractive - and they are, but its their personalities that are unattractive. In fact when they post photos of themselves they are often surprisingly attractive, or certainly no uglier than men who have no trouble finding girlfriends and wives. They're just awful people, often who think they're entitled to the most beautiful women only and women of average or moderate attractiveness aren't good enough for them, and they feel they should be gifted these women by virtue of being male and don't have to put in any effort themselves. They write extremely awful things about believing in forced rape and murder of women who don't do what they want and how women they marry should expect a life of domestic violence. These are not nice men who just find it hard to get a date. They are truly awful human beings.

sure it sucks if you're having no luck dating and finding a partner! but there are plenty of women experiencing the same thing. I know there are because I know a lot of them. And no they aren't too fussy and only looking for "hot" guys.

*these theories are controversial of course. but plenty of studies that do show this effect exist.

 

[Fairy1]

It seems to me that many men believe they're somehow "entitled" to a supermodel level beauty. There is a reason so many women have so much "work" done. This is what attracts most men as they are visually stimulated. Not the case for most women.

Yes, some women are "gold diggers." Most are not. We see here on WS every day lovely young women choosing to be with unemployed, violent lowlifes who harm or kill their babies.

But men, ask yourselves, what do you bring to the table?

 

[bluesneakers]

It seems to me that many men believe they're somehow "entitled" to a supermodel level beauty. There is a reason so many women have so much "work" done. This is what attracts most men as they are visually stimulated. Not the case for most women.

Yes, some women are "gold diggers." Most are not. We see here on WS every day lovely young women choosing to be with unemployed, violent lowlifes who harm or kill their babies.

But men, ask yourselves, what do you bring to the table?

Also ask why we can't talk about misogyny, toxic masculinity, or violence against women without pointing fingers at women or blaming women for the things men do. There are not two sides to a violent act like Rodger's rampage. It's possible to address the issues, anger, and hatred men like him have without saying "But women..."

 

[cujenn81]

Also ask why we can't talk about misogyny, toxic masculinity, or violence against women without pointing fingers at women or blaming women for the things men do. There are not two sides to a violent act like Rodger's rampage. It's possible to address the issues, anger, and hatred men like him have without saying "But women..."

This reminds me of a line I highlighted in the book, "The Female of the Species" by Mindy McGinnis.

“But boys will be boys, our favorite phrase that excuses so many things, while the only thing we have for the opposite gender is women, said with disdain and punctuated with an eye roll.”

(Awesome book, BTW.)

 

[ldlager]

I couldn't disagree with this more. For one thing, attractive is relative and a personal choice. Perusing the weddings section of any newspaper or wedding blog, you'll see loads of "unattractive" people of both biological sexes getting married. Personality and attraction are individual things that defy definition. A person that ticks all the boxes of "conventionally attractive" could be an asshat of a human being that finds it hard to keep a partner. A less attractive person with charisma can have no trouble at all finding partners. Heck a LOT of men who find it very easy to date aren't conventionally attractive at all (eg Mick Jagger, for example). I don't think this can be generalised to "women only want hot men" at ALL. Not even close.

In fact study after study shows that if you want to get very evolutionary psych about it*, it's MEN who are attracted to attractive, pretty, youthful women as these attributes tend to roughly align with fertility and women tend to be attracted to older men with resources (ie money, but that's dependent on the society - in other societies those resources could be anything) because that aligns with being able to provide for the reproducing woman and offspring.

These types of MGTOW/red pill/incel/MRA individuals blame not being able to get women on being unattractive - and they are, but its their personalities that are unattractive. In fact when they post photos of themselves they are often surprisingly attractive, or certainly no uglier than men who have no trouble finding girlfriends and wives. They're just awful people, often who think they're entitled to the most beautiful women only and women of average or moderate attractiveness aren't good enough for them, and they feel they should be gifted these women by virtue of being male and don't have to put in any effort themselves. They write extremely awful things about believing in forced rape and murder of women who don't do what they want and how women they marry should expect a life of domestic violence. These are not nice men who just find it hard to get a date. They are truly awful human beings.

sure it sucks if you're having no luck dating and finding a partner! but there are plenty of women experiencing the same thing. I know there are because I know a lot of them. And no they aren't too fussy and only looking for "hot" guys.

*these theories are controversial of course. but plenty of studies that do show this effect exist.

Eloise, yOur use of Mr. Jagger is the perfect example of my point. Rich, famous, high end lifestyle, well known, and probably not conventionally seen as good looking. But he evidently has no problem attracting a partner, or women. I don’t think it’s because of his looks, for the most part anyways. And while many men are attracted to attractive, pretty youthful women, that certainly doesn’t make them misogynists, or potential murderers.

 

[bluesneakers]

The role entitlement, rejection can play in misogyny and violence against women

“Depending on the man, and this is not all men, some will resort to violence either through asserting dominance or aggression to make the person feel the pain they’re feeling. This is a society of toxic masculinity.”

“Men are socialized, if they are aware of it or not, that women serve a purpose for sexual gratification [and sometimes] that is the only goal.”

They are misogynists who are often associated with the Men’s Rights Movement, and believe that all women are vapid and choose mates purely based on their looks.

[W]hen instances of gun violence or a mass murderer become known to the public, some of the killers have been linked to misogynistic views.

“[Rejection] may not directly lead to violence but it is part of the bigger discourse, Najibzadeh says. “A lot of this is rooted in misogyny and entitlement from sex.”

“[Toxic masculinity] is integrated in every part of our culture and is really causing a lot of damage in terms of being able to have healthy relationships,”

 

[ldlager]

The role entitlement, rejection can play in misogyny and viole
Sigh...... I wish the author would have had the decency to speak to even one member of the male species when writing this article. Just for some balance, or god forbid, context or perspective. But why bother. She already knows all the answers.
Peace to you all.

 

[bluesneakers]

The Toronto van attack and the people who rushed to help

Once the scope of the incident became clear, a unified command centre was set up, and Powell, the district fire chief, took on the role of information officer.

Throughout the sprawling scene, firefighters, EMS workers and police worked to triage and provide first aid to the victims as they found them. In some cases, firefighters rode alongside patients and EMS to the hospital, performing CPR in the ambulance on the way. Powell marvels at how well-managed the scene was, in spite of its complexity, and how complete strangers offered glimmers of light on such a dark day. “Everyday citizens wanted to help,” he says. “The goodness in human nature shone through.”

Much more at link.

 

[bluesneakers]

Navigating a cryptic post and dark corners of the internet after Toronto's van attack

But there was still the question of the time-stamp on the post: 3:15 p.m. ET.

That was well after the attack took place and after Minassian had been arrested, meaning it was highly unlikely he could have sent it.

Braga believes the confusion sprang from the format of the time-stamp: it was in UTC time, or Universal Time Code, not Eastern Time.

"Essentially, incel is an online subculture, you could call them. They exist within this thing that is colloquially referred to as 'the manosphere'," he says. "You can't really view this group as monolithic, but what they all have at the centre is extreme misogyny."

"You go in there thinking it's a support group for men," says Lamoureux. "But then you're faced with virulently misogynistic anti-women [posts] … advocating rape, advocating violence."

 

[bluesneakers]

Echos of Montreal Massacre's misogyny in Toronto van attack

"They are young, white men of the middle class," said Francine Pelletier*, a columnist and documentary filmmaker, referring to Minassian and Polytechnique killer Marc Lépine.

"They are fairly educated. They have a chip on their shoulder. They are mad as hell because they are not getting their due and they are literally going to go on the public square to do a human sacrifice in the name of becoming, at least once in their life, recognized and famous."

"It's as if Polytechnique** had given them the permission to come out of the basement and start becoming public," she said.

"At that point they were pointing their finger at women who weren't allowing men to have access to their children. But this has pretty much grown into the incels, who don't just have no access to children, they have no access to women."

She said there's a tendency to write off the actions of mass murderers as simply the work of mad men and to deny there is anything more to their motivations.

But that's too simple, Pelletier said, adding it is important to look closely at what's behind the surface motivations of killers.

*Pelletier was among 19 women identified as targets in Lépine​'s suicide note.

**IMO Isla Vista played a role in the trend continuing.

 

[matou]

Tales from the Toronto van attack: The minutes that forever link the victims and bystanders

It was a warm, sunny day in Toronto, the first good weather after a wet and cold April. Throngs of people spilled onto the street from the offices and apartments that flank Yonge Street in North York. They were a typical Toronto mix of backgrounds. They were students, mothers pushing strollers, seniors with walkers and executives in suits. Some were out for coffee or lunch. Others were going to the bank or hurrying back to work. Many were on Yonge at that moment through mere chance. What they were about to experience was unlike anything Canada had seen before. Just before 1:30 p.m. on April 23, a white van started moving south on Yonge, just north of Finch Avenue. When it came to rest seven minutes later, 10 people were dead and 16 more hurt. Scores more witnessed the carnage. In the days after the attack, Globe and Mail reporters interviewed dozens of witnesses, as well as family members, friends and colleagues of the victims to tell the story of what happened that day.

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/can.../+Media&utm_campaign=Shared+Web+Article+Links

 

[MaryG12]

I remember reading Elliot Rodgers' entire manifesto when it was released and the whole thing was beyond disgusting. He talked about how he would force all women into hard labor (or kill them) if he were president. He talked about the pleasure he would get from watching them from his high tower above them. Of course, he said, he would hand pick a select few to be spared who would have sex with him whenever he wanted. According to him, they would serve no other purpose than to please him and to put their reproduction systems to good use. Oh, how I wish he'd survived only so a lovely lady could have pulled a Lorena Bobbitt and forced him to suffer the rest of his days with a broken, reattached penis.

ETA: Was that too harsh? [emoji56]

Nope, not too harsh at all. I remember the Rodgers case, and while he was young and suffered from Male Entitlement Syndrome (TM Pending), he also seemed all too typical of worrying about having a girl, and having nothing to bring to the table when it comes to a relationship. You know, someone who just wants to be on the receiving end all the time. And he was young, too, only 22 years old. He would have been better off finishing college, deciding on a job/career path, and still be alive. Instead his mindset led to unspeakable destruction.

But again being young, worrying about having the opposite gender like you can and will lead to disaster.

Whatever happened to values like being comfortable with yourself, getting along with yourself, being able to look into the mirror and accepting yourself? If someone does not like a certain aspect of one's self, change it. But only that person can make the change, no one else can do it for them.

 

[JDG]

Not seeing that. Men are much more focused on the looks of their partner than women are. That's the biggest factor that seems to influence them. Women are more emotionally based and "generally" (a HUGE generally) care more about personality of their partner. (That's not to dismiss that some women are attracted to power and money.)

One thing that I find ironic is that non-attractive men (over-rating, or is it over-looking, their own looks) think that they 'deserve' attractive women and often dismiss women that have looks similar to their level. I've always wondered about the guy that looks in the mirror at his disheveled pudgy self and then belittled women who are non model-beautiful.

Of course women aren't perfect either. We are all trying to find our way in this silly thing called life. Hence we must recognize our failings, while forgiving them.

Men are visually stimulated from the get go. Even young boys exhibit this tendency, they will look at the good looking women at the mall, not the average women shoppers. Some parents find this 'cute' and encourage it either willingly or unwillingly.

Women, or most women are drawn to personality, sense of humour, kindness capability and sometimes fondness for animals. I guess on a biological scale, if they're fond of pets they'll make better fathers?

As the quoted post states, all men and women but especially incels need to look in the mirror and maybe ask other men how they stack up?

Looking in the mirror is ok for the physical but to judge yourself as 'normal' or 'being personable' is rather difficult. They need a loved one or good friend to be honest with them.

These are generalizations, as we don't know enough about AM to know if he was pampered and told he was great to make up for his shortcomings.

I believe he wanted to be shot, he was miserable and couldn't see it ending unless he was dead.

Too bad he felt he had to ruin the lives of many others in order to accomplish this......and he failed, miserably.