NY - Captured, escaped convicted killers, David Sweat & Richard Matt, Dannemora #8

[Greater Than]

Oh wow. I guess his son had a change of heart? And I assume since he's not claiming the body, this will end the speculation that he intends to file a wrongful death suit.

"Megan Avery, at the Alice Hyde Medical Center in Malone, New York said Matt's family would not be claiming his body for burial.

The body is at the medical center's morgue, CNN reported.

Franklin County authorities will handle the burial, and they may claim the body as early as Wednesday, Avery said."

http://m.wptz.com/news/report-richard-matts-family-will-not-claim-his-body/33902146

 

[cady]

I am curious about Matt's position when he was encountered. There is at least one gunshot to the top of his head. Was he standing or sitting? The backpack is not on his back...looks like he put it down in front of him. Photo must have been taken after LE removed the gun from his side?JMO

 

[screecher]

I don't think the interview of Sweat's mother reflected her "criminal mindset" or revealed her as an "enabler." There isn't any Emily Post etiquette guide for parents of convicted murderers, much less for parents of convicted murderers who escape from prison and become national news for weeks.

Even if such a guide existed I doubt Sweat's mother would know of it, and even if she read it I doubt she'd remember what it instructed her to say, and even if she remembered the instructions I doubt her words her would come out right. The mother who brought Sweat into the world couldn't even remember what a doctor told her about her son's brain "not being right," for goodness sake.

Of course Matt and Sweat are responsible for deciding to try to escape, for using (willing) folks to get out, and for every last thing they did while loose, including terrorizing communities in NY and putting the lives of over 1,000 LEO at risk.

The point I was trying to make was that in a secure prison with employees doing their jobs, it wouldn't have mattered whether or not Matt or Sweat WANTED to escape, 'cause they'd never have made it out. As far as I'm concerned, if a woman is going to be singled out as having a definite criminal mindset, that would be Tillie, who discussed murdering her husband with 2 convicted murderers, not Sweat's mother. JMO

I never said anything about Sweat's mother having a 'criminal mindset'. In essence, what I did say, is her statement,

"Yeah I'm really surprised I still say to this day that if that woman, if those guys, wouldn't have given that stuff they couldnt' have ever escaped, they woudln't have even done this, they knew better."

is very much what an enabler would say. And that is what revealed her as his enabler throughout his life, absolutely imo, and continues to do so now. She speaks out of both sides of her mouth, she's blaming 'that woman and those guys', but yet she says 'they knew better'. Implying they were being set up, her son and the other murderer just couldn't resist. imo.

When someone doesn't hold another accountable and responsible for the wrongs/crimes one has chosen to commit, makes excuses, places blame on someone else, they are an enabler.

Definition of ENABLER

: one that enables another to achieve an end; especially : one who enables another to persist in self-destructive behavior (as substance abuse) by providing excuses or by making it possible to avoid the consequences of such behavior

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/enabler

I'm pretty sure most parents don't need a 'guide' to know how to teach their children the concept of personal responsibility and personal accountability. The issue is following through with it. Unfortunately, many take the easy road and don't teach it imo.

"The point I was trying to make was that in a secure prison with employees doing their jobs, it wouldn't have mattered whether or not Matt or Sweat WANTED to escape, 'cause they'd never have made it out."

As to escaping secure facilities-many inmates have escaped from prisons and jails across the US, but never, ever from Clinton CF. Hence, all the national media.

IMO, the female tailor shop supervisor most certainly doesn't have a 'criminal mindset', otherwise she would have known she was being played by master manipulators who, since childhood, fine tuned their own 'criminal mind sets. Both of these scumbags were/are career criminals, from childhood.

 

[MyBelle]

I agree. Logically it doesn't seem right, but I guess legally since he was in their custody and under their supervision, I suppose they're liable. Them dropping the ball is a given, especially in light of the suspension of the top officials and nine security officers yesterday.

Matt was not in LE custody when he was shot. It was a justified shooting after he pointed the gun at LE.

JMO

 

[Mountaingazer]

I am curious about Matt's position when he was encountered. There is at least one gunshot to the top of his head. Was he standing or sitting? The backpack is not on his back...looks like he put it down in front of him. Photo must have been taken after LE removed the gun from his side?JMO

My friend's dad was just talking about this on facebook. He is a retired green beret and teaches gun safety classes, so he is pretty knowledgeable about guns. Was he sitting when shot or in the process of falling? Maybe he put his head down and charged at the officer? He is a tall guy, so it would be hard to shoot him in the top of the head.

 

[cady]

Matt was not in LE custody when he was shot. It was a justified shooting after he pointed the gun at LE.

JMO

How do you know that he "pointed the gun at LE". I have only read that he did not discharge the weapon. JMO

 

[human]

BBM

Where did you read in my post I said the others didn't share responsibility?

I'll be clearer here. Its called personal responsibility and accountability. No one coerced Matt and Sweat to try to escape. They were wanting out. Sweat was planning it for 6 months according to him. IMO, he was planning it for years.


Generally speaking, very few, with the criminal mind set, are going to say...'yeah, I like torturing, killing, then dismembering my victims. I get a high from it'. Or, 'I rape and molest babies and children because its easy and it makes me feel powerful'. Or, 'no one made me do it, I did it because i wanted to'. The ones who do say it, are taking personal responsibility and being accountable for their criminal actions. That criminal is not blaming or placing responsibility on his victim, or anyone else, a bad upbringing, nor attempting to excuse his crime. Imo, these criminals probably had no one enabling them, either.

OTOH, most will say things like 'he got what he deserved, he owed me money and wouldn't pay up'. 'He/she deserved to be beaten and pummeled within an inch of his/her life, because I caught him/her cheating on me'. 'I stabbed him 42 times because he was mean to my mother', 'not my fault i had to rob and shoot to death the owner of the convenience store, my baby needed milk and diapers and I had no money'. Particularly, with sex offenders, the blame is often placed on the victims. Always justifying and placing responsibility of their crimes on others.


Specifically, regarding David Sweat's mother's interview, instead of saying...my David has made bad decisions since he has been a child and those decisions have not only affected him, but also those around him and I couldn't find a way to help him stay out of trouble. What she is saying, in that interview, is without the 'help' of others, David and the 'other guy' couldn't, wouldn't attempt and succeed in escaping. She is excusing his bad decisions, his bad choices and placing blame on 'others'. She is not holding her son solely accountable for his bad decision. It is what enablers do. It is part of the enabling process.

Imo, David Sweat and Richard Matt had previously attempted to escape using those pipes. Remember, the cat walks were no longer being toured by the COs, as there was not enough 'funding'. I have no doubt the inmates were aware of this. Realizing they needed tools to cut into and out of the pipes, they scoped out civilians, decided the tailor shop supervisor was the easiest mark and set about 'grooming' her. Btw, she has taken personal responsibility and is being held accountable for her bad choices and decisions.

Excellent and sums up thinking that therapists work on to change. :goodpost:

 

[nomoresorrow]

(BBM)

I am curious about Matt's position when he was encountered. There is at least one gunshot to the top of his head. Was he standing or sitting? The backpack is not on his back...looks like he put it down in front of him. Photo must have been taken after LE removed the gun from his side?JMO

Curious too. To me, it's looks like all three shots were on the top of the head, sort of in a triangular pattern - JMO

 

[human]

I agree. Logically it doesn't seem right, but I guess legally since he was in their custody and under their supervision, I suppose they're liable. Them dropping the ball is a given, especially in light of the suspension of the top officials and nine security officers yesterday.

If that is true, then every LE and every citizen should sue the family for suffering they had to endure because of their relative.

I don't see what the suit could be about. They did not visit their beloved inmates in prison so it is hard to imagine what loss they are having . Not income either. So how are they impacted?

If the dollar signs are ringing up in the cash register eyes, I hope the victim's families sue. The ones where Sweat drove over the head and the one where Matt tortured for hours or is it the rape victim or the other murder victim?

 

[faw720]

I am curious about Matt's position when he was encountered. There is at least one gunshot to the top of his head. Was he standing or sitting? The backpack is not on his back...looks like he put it down in front of him. Photo must have been taken after LE removed the gun from his side?JMO

I noticed that also. An exit wound would have left more of the skull missing. Perhaps the trooper was in a tree.

 

[Hope4More]

I never said anything about Sweat's mother having a 'criminal mindset'. In essence, what I did say, is her statement,

"Yeah I'm really surprised I still say to this day that if that woman, if those guys, wouldn't have given that stuff they couldnt' have ever escaped, they woudln't have even done this, they knew better."

is very much what an enabler would say. And that is what revealed her as his enabler throughout his life, absolutely imo, and continues to do so now. She speaks out of both sides of her mouth, she's blaming 'that woman and those guys', but yet she says 'they knew better'. Implying they were being set up, her son and the other murderer just couldn't resist. imo.

When someone doesn't hold another accountable and responsible for the wrongs/crimes one has chosen to commit, makes excuses, places blame on someone else, they are an enabler.

Definition of ENABLER

: one that enables another to achieve an end; especially : one who enables another to persist in self-destructive behavior (as substance abuse) by providing excuses or by making it possible to avoid the consequences of such behavior

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/enabler

I'm pretty sure most parents don't need a 'guide' to know how to teach their children the concept of personal responsibility and personal accountability. The issue is following through with it. Unfortunately, many take the easy road and don't teach it imo.

"The point I was trying to make was that in a secure prison with employees doing their jobs, it wouldn't have mattered whether or not Matt or Sweat WANTED to escape, 'cause they'd never have made it out."

As to escaping secure facilities-many inmates have escaped from prisons and jails across the US, but never, ever from Clinton CF. Hence, all the national media.

IMO, the female tailor shop supervisor most certainly doesn't have a 'criminal mindset', otherwise she would have known she was being played by master manipulators who, since childhood, fine tuned their own 'criminal mind sets. Both of these scumbags were/are career criminals, from childhood.

Well, if Sweat's mom is an enabler- and I don't agree that she was or is- I reckon she's been plenty punished enough. Onwards to punishing those who made Sweat and Matt's escape possible.

 

[cady]

I'm starting to think that sick and drunk, he had already given up. JMO I don't know what was said to him that he did not comply with, but it's possible that he was too weak. We need some details. JMO

 

[screecher]

Also Who would hire Lyle to work for them...he says he has put in for a transfer but who would want him? I would not want his drama.

GGE, many of us here really enjoy reading what you have to say.

He is an employee of NYSDOC. If an opening comes up in another facility, and he has seniority, the slot goes to him.

 

[human]

Well, if Sweat's mom is an enabler- and I don't agree that she was or is- I reckon she's been plenty punished enough. Onwards to punishing those who made Sweat and Matt's escape possible.

I think he learned thought processes from her. Not his fault.

Like with the LE. He HAD to shoot the LE cuz he thought the LE was going to shoot him.. See? Not his fault!

 

[cady]

I'm laying off the Mom. He had a father, too. We don't know anything about either of them. He had screwy wiring, it sounds like, as a child. JMO I believe some psychopaths are born that way.

 

[human]

I am not forgetting the victims nor the citizens who had to live in fear nor the officers that were out in horrendous conditions.

As a citizen, going from the house to the car would have been a trip in terror.

I wonder what people told their children?

 

[Greater Than]

Matt was not in LE custody when he was shot. It was a justified shooting after he pointed the gun at LE.

JMO

I never said it wasn't a justified shooting. I am aware of the fact that the law permits the use of deadly force to stop a fleeing felon. The shooting was 100% justified, criminally. A wrongful death suit is a civil matter, not a criminal matter.

All I was saying is that Clinton Correctional and the state of NY may be civilly responsible since we was in their custody and under their supervision. He was killed because they were negligent in their security allowing him to escape, which resulted in his death.

I said logically it doesn't seem right that his family could sue because it was his choice to put in him that position, but maybe they are liable civilly. IANAL though, so I don't know.

 

[screecher]

Well, if Sweat's mom is an enabler- and I don't agree that she was or is- I reckon she's been plenty punished enough. Onwards to punishing those who made Sweat and Matt's escape possible.

Perhaps. But I tend to think she's not even close to being 'punished enough' lol.

Imo, because of her enabling, her lack of proper parenting, she contributed to the victim's horrific torture and death, the victim's family and the victim's loved ones, unimaginable sorrow and sadness.

 

[Coldpizza]

New thread open for posting, this one will close in 5 minutes.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...lers-David-Sweat-amp-Richard-Matt-Dannemora-9