NY NY - Ellery, Rte 17, WhtFem 30-37, 193UFNY, GSW, poss from Canada or Europe, note, clothes, Dec'83

[Giuc0]

No news yet from the AFDD in Chili.

Meanwhile, I want to address the data found in Northern American records "Race/ethnicity" because our JD is a typical case where it happens.

In US and Canada, "Race" is based on declaration. But in other countries like it was in SA during the apartheid (I know that our JD is not from this context, but it highlights the issue), the State authority determines the race/ethnicity on your ID. Furthermore, in France to speak about a country I know, statistics by ethnicity are absolutely forbidden: you won't find them on your ID.
Furthermore, in some European countries, you can find "Race: Mediterranean", and they can look like a First Nation person in North America.
Mediterranean can also be of Middle East like Lebanon, which is not strictly a Mediterranean country.

I bring it up because our JD may be of European descent and when we compare PM with her, we can be easily strayed by "Race/Ethnicity", so writing off a PM based on this disrespectancy.
If you have a PM where "Race/Ethnicity" is determined by the State authority and you compare with a US JD where this data is declarative, you can be sure that you'll get such disrespectancy.
When we compare PM from out of US and Canada, we can easily be fooled by this element.

I think that when we compare our JD with PM, we should completely ignore this specific data and focus on the rest (if story matches, if the post-mortem findings match... Ex, a First Nation Canadian PM with substance abuse problems, past or present, will have dental problems and signs on her organs at the autopsy. Our JD has none of it. So, even with uncanny resemblance between the post-mortem photo and the PM, the substance abuse will be a blatant rule-out).

Otherwise, we'll be swayed on this disrespectancy while this data is managed differently in the two countries.

Then, when we submit a PM, we can explain the disrespectancy (ex: the PM is of Northern African descent, so the foreign file classifies her as "Arab/Mediterranean" as COUNTRY X says while US classified her estimated race as "Caucasian").

We should focus less on this aspect and more on how the JD and PM are a good match.

I suggest first to search what makes the match impossible.
Here, an impossible match is a MP with substance abuse active or inactive as no autopsy shows any sign and her dental care is not consistant with substance abuse, transiant lifestyle as her clothing and her grooming don't match a transiant lifestyle.
Not having given birth is an inconsistency, but it is also an event she may have hidden to even her closest relatives.

 

[Giuc0]

Noting..
Mar 04, 2020
Column: Why is ‘people of color’ OK but not ‘colored people’? A reading list for white folks
''Now, in 2020, “people of color” often is used to refer to the collective group of non-white Americans. It is offensive to single blacks out as “colored.”

Definition in South Africa: coloured - definition of coloured in A Dictionary of South African English - DSAE

I repeat, I'd never had used this word if the convo with former prosecutor were of US.

Former prosecutor with whom I talked was of Johannesburg, South Africa.
And "coloured" in this specific context means "a person who is of mixed ethnicity".

If you say to a US LEO "The person is known for liking to live in the Gramadoelas", your LEO will wonder what are you talking about.
In South Africa, "living in the Gramadoelas" means living in the middle of nowhere: https://www.lexico.com/definition/gramadoelas

Now, in South Africa, "coloured" is still used in legal decisions, for example this decision from the Equality Court (Rarayi and Others v Oak Valley Estates and Others (EC13/2019) [2019] ZAEQC 7 (22 November 2019) on SAFLII): Rarayi and Others v Oak Valley Estates and Others (EC13/2019) [2019] ZAEQC 7 (22 November 2019)

That's why I say that while in the US, using "coloured" is an absolute no no, it's not exactly the case in South Africa.

A MP report in North America can contain "regular smoking pot" (for the marihuana) while a MP report in South Africa will mention "regular smoking dagga".
"Dagga" means the marihuana in South Africa, but if you read the MP report thinking that it's a US or Canada report, it can confuse anyone.

That's why for the "coloured" from my convo with ex prosecutor in SA, you could think that it had a racist meaning because in the US, "coloured" for Afro-American people is an insult.
In South Africa, "coloured" means "neither Black nor White" and is still use in legal lingo in the anti-discrimination field: Equality Court is a specialised Court dealing only about discriminations.

I tell you about the linguistic differences between US and South Africa because I have better knowledge of South African English.
My knowledge of Indian English, Malay English or Singapore English is much more limited.

However, in Singapore, you can encounter "Mdm" for Madam.
Again, if we (included Your Truly) don't pay attention to the country of the MP report, we can easily misconstruct what the MP report says. Even in both country where English is official language or working language.

I wanted to use the issue we had with the word "coloured" in South Africa when reporting a convo with a former SA prosecutor specifically using this word in a context of South Africa society and a sleuther answered about "coloured" in the US context.

I repeat myself, I would had never used "coloured" about a person of colour in the US!

I repeat, we have to pay attention about the PM file country of origin: if we have a PM file in English from Cyprus, we have to be careful about the word used in North America but with a different meaning in Cyprus.
And yes, Cyprus is in Europe and it belongs to European Union and Commonwealth, sources: Cyprus (Commonwealth)
Cyprus | European Union (European Union)

I say that our JD is the typical case where the missing person file in English can contain differences which may be confusing when reading in a Northern America context.

"Coloured" in South Africa is typical of the issue. Same word but meaning not exactly identical in another English speaking country.

 

[dotr]

Definition in South Africa: coloured - definition of coloured in A Dictionary of South African English - DSAE

I repeat, I'd never had used this word if the convo with former prosecutor were of US.

Former prosecutor with whom I talked was of Johannesburg, South Africa.
And "coloured" in this specific context means "a person who is of mixed ethnicity".

If you say to a US LEO "The person is known for liking to live in the Gramadoelas", your LEO will wonder what are you talking about.
In South Africa, "living in the Gramadoelas" means living in the middle of nowhere: GRAMADOELAS | Definition of GRAMADOELAS by Oxford Dictionary on Lexico.com also meaning of GRAMADOELAS

Now, in South Africa, "coloured" is still used in legal decisions, for example this decision from the Equality Court (Rarayi and Others v Oak Valley Estates and Others (EC13/2019) [2019] ZAEQC 7 (22 November 2019) on SAFLII): Rarayi and Others v Oak Valley Estates and Others (EC13/2019) [2019] ZAEQC 7 (22 November 2019)

That's why I say that while in the US, using "coloured" is an absolute no no, it's not exactly the case in South Africa.

A MP report in North America can contain "regular smoking pot" (for the marihuana) while a MP report in South Africa will mention "regular smoking dagga".
"Dagga" means the marihuana in South Africa, but if you read the MP report thinking that it's a US or Canada report, it can confuse anyone.

That's why for the "coloured" from my convo with ex prosecutor in SA, you could think that it had a racist meaning because in the US, "coloured" for Afro-American people is an insult.
In South Africa, "coloured" means "neither Black nor White" and is still use in legal lingo in the anti-discrimination field: Equality Court is a specialised Court dealing only about discriminations.

I tell you about the linguistic differences between US and South Africa because I have better knowledge of South African English.
My knowledge of Indian English, Malay English or Singapore English is much more limited.

However, in Singapore, you can encounter "Mdm" for Madam.
Again, if we (included Your Truly) don't pay attention to the country of the MP report, we can easily misconstruct what the MP report says. Even in both country where English is official language or working language.

I wanted to use the issue we had with the word "coloured" in South Africa when reporting a convo with a former SA prosecutor specifically using this word in a context of South Africa society and a sleuther answered about "coloured" in the US context.

I repeat myself, I would had never used "coloured" about a person of colour in the US!

I repeat, we have to pay attention about the PM file country of origin: if we have a PM file in English from Cyprus, we have to be careful about the word used in North America but with a different meaning in Cyprus.
And yes, Cyprus is in Europe and it belongs to European Union and Commonwealth, sources: Cyprus (Commonwealth)
Cyprus | European Union (European Union)

I say that our JD is the typical case where the missing person file in English can contain differences which may be confusing when reading in a Northern America context.

"Coloured" in South Africa is typical of the issue. Same word but meaning not exactly identical in another English speaking country.

All interesting stuff, probably worthy of having its very own thread, wondering if we also have a thread for the missing Argentinians, ''the disappeared''?

Back to subject of this thread -the unidentified woman, wondering if there might be any connection to these women whose remains have been found approx. 25 miles from Ellery Doe's remains?..
fwiw, speculation, imo...
NY - NY - Chautauqua County, remains, 2 Females, dead for decades, Sept '21

 

[WNYer]

Do we know if Angela Hartmann has been ruled out officially as CCJD?

 

[Giuc0]

Ok, the list of exilees has been witheld from Memoria Viva and with presidential elections period in Chile, I had no luck with AFDD.

But would it be a worthy tip to suggest to LE?

Europe received plenty of Chilean exilees. Canada, less but they received a fair share.

 

[IslandGirlTC]

Bump. Another theory around the note that just hit me is the possibility of spy numbers. These are numbers that form a lock and key code to a message. As an example let's say this is what the note in her pocket was. She's carrying one half of the message and now needs the other half to read the coded message. She may have either had to meet with someone who would deliver the "key" to the code, pick it up somewhere, gotten it from a phone call or heard it over shortwave which is most likely of all of them because it's the most secure. Probably harder to trace than over the phone and there's no need to worry about someone following you if meeting in person. I used to listen to numbers stations. They're repetitive but fascinating. Two of the most popular countries that use them are Russia and Poland but there are others as well. Wikipedia article on numbers stations

 

[Carovb5]

Could this possibly be Willemijntje Van Der Meer? Age is right + she’s from Europe (The Netherlands)
https://www.politie.nl/gezocht-en-v...978/januari/05-willemijntje-van-der-meer.html
Willemijntje van der Meer

Vermist uit Amsterdam sinds 2 januari 1978: Willemijntje van der Meer

Missing from: Amsterdam Missing since: 02-01-1978
Full name: Willemijntje van der Meer
Call Sign: Willemijntje
Gender: Female
Born: 26-06-1941 in Voorburg
Length: 1.67
Current age: 77
Eyes: Blue
Hair: Blonde (looks brown imo)
Other: Willemijntje has a scar from a burn on her shin. Willemijntje van der Meer left her home on 2 January 1978 at Gilles van Ledenberchstraat in Amsterdam Oud-West. Nothing more has been heard from her since then. Her disappearance was reported to the Amsterdam office on January 3, 1978. The police investigation at the time turned up nothing. It was known at the time that Willemijntje had been looking for her passport in her house shortly before her disappearance. Willemijntje was married at the time and had six children between the ages of 6 and 14. Another striking detail is that shortly after the disappearance, two men went to the home address to ask for photo (albums). The children, who were home alone at the time, thought that the two gentlemen were from the police. Afterwards it turned out that the police never asked for these albums. SearchJeMee pays attention to this old case, in the hope that 36 years after this mysterious disappearance, new information can be obtained with which this missing person can still be solved. Anyone with information can contact the National Police on telephone number 0800-6070, or fill in the tip form (anonymously if necessary). You can also write to: SearchJeMee Foundation Saturnusstraat 60 Unit 73 2516 AH The Hague Naturally, all information is treated confidentially.

Edited to add: she’s apparantly currently looked into possibly being Miss Molly (Jane Doe).

 

[Bit of hope]

Could this possibly be Willemijntje Van Der Meer? Age is right + she’s from Europe (The Netherlands)
Willemijntje van der Meer

Vermist uit Amsterdam sinds 2 januari 1978: Willemijntje van der Meer

Missing from: Amsterdam Missing since: 02-01-1978
Full name: Willemijntje van der Meer
Call Sign: Willemijntje
Gender: Female
Born: 26-06-1941 in Voorburg
Length: 1.67
Current age: 77
Eyes: Blue
Hair: Blonde (looks brown imo)
Other: Willemijntje has a scar from a burn on her shin. Willemijntje van der Meer left her home on 2 January 1978 at Gilles van Ledenberchstraat in Amsterdam Oud-West. Nothing more has been heard from her since then. Her disappearance was reported to the Amsterdam office on January 3, 1978. The police investigation at the time turned up nothing. It was known at the time that Willemijntje had been looking for her passport in her house shortly before her disappearance. Willemijntje was married at the time and had six children between the ages of 6 and 14. Another striking detail is that shortly after the disappearance, two men went to the home address to ask for photo (albums). The children, who were home alone at the time, thought that the two gentlemen were from the police. Afterwards it turned out that the police never asked for these albums. SearchJeMee pays attention to this old case, in the hope that 36 years after this mysterious disappearance, new information can be obtained with which this missing person can still be solved. Anyone with information can contact the National Police on telephone number 0800-6070, or fill in the tip form (anonymously if necessary). You can also write to: SearchJeMee Foundation Saturnusstraat 60 Unit 73 2516 AH The Hague Naturally, all information is treated confidentially.

Edited to add: she’s apparantly currently looked into possibly being Miss Molly (Jane Doe).

Thanks. A very interesting Dutch missing persons case. I think we looked into Willemijntje before in the thread, I did at least. I didn't pursue this further because Jane Doe estimated age range wouldn't fit in Willemijntje's DOB, Jane Doe is smaller (167 cm vs. UID approx. 1,58 -1,60 cm) but most of all the eye color doesn't match (blue vs brown).

You are right that they were looking into a possible match with Miss Molly Doe in those days. The lather did turn out to be a different person and not Willemijntje. ‘Miss Molly’ identified in 34-year-old Kansas cold case
Her name was Robin Ann Green, a Los Angeles woman.

Willemijnje's children are still looking for her. She would be 80 now. I'm hoping for a miracle for them. Verdwijning Willemijn al veertig jaar een mysterie: "Ze liet zes kinderen achter" (disappearance Willemijn already a mystery for 40 years, she left 6 children behind)

"Her children have never given up hope that she might still be alive and willing to answer their questions. "It would do them good," says Jan <her daughter's adoptive father>. I don't think they get mad at their mother."

 

[Giuc0]

Hello,

For the blue eyes turning brown after death, I don't remember who told us about it, but the blue eyes for MP don't bother me. It's easily explainable: they can turn brown after death.
Neither the height, as they are more likely than not estimated and you can see 10ishcm difference after ID when comparing MP report and the UID.
Same for age UID estimate turning actually wrong. They can be actually much younger or much older than estimated.

What really bothers me when I compare our JD PM photo (NamUS.gov) with Willemijntje's photo on DN is that:
- face shapes don't match: MP face has a stronger jaw than UID, even when accounting for COD and ageing process
- hair thickness and color don't match. JD has thicker hair, MP has thin hair. Even when you account with ageing, JD has more of wavy hair than straight as sticks hair.
- eye shapes don't match either. Our JD has a more almond shape form of eyes, our MP has more Northern European eye shape.
- Her face color don't match: MP has a very fair skin, our JD is darker (more like a light caramel than a very pale skin).

So, there are similarities, but frankly, these details make me think that nope, they are not a match.

Mods, I added these two stock photos for illustrating what I mean about the differences, they are not missing women!
Stock photo pictures.
Our MP is much more similar to this stock photo: Portrait Of Beautiful Happy Blonde Woman Against White Background Premium Stock Photos
Our JD is much more similar to the following stock photo: Portrait Of Beautiful Happy Blonde Woman Against White Background Premium Stock Photos
I really think that she is more of either Southern European, North Africa, Middle East or has some Rom ancestry.
So, I think of Greek, Italian, Spanish, Portughese, Algeria, Tunisia, Morocco (and yes, Ceuta and Mellila belong to Spain but they are enclaved in Morocco), Albania (not likely given of the year, but I can't completely exclude it), Sepharadi Jew, Balkans Muslim, even maybe some Southern America ancestry.
I do not see such characteristics at all in Willemijntje photo.

Doesn't mean that JD can't be of Northern European citizenship.
But Northern Europe ancestry, with blond hair and fair skin as an aspirin tablet (a French expression for a very pale skin)? Not at all.
When we search in Belgium, Netherlands and any Northern European country MP database, we shall ignore ladies similar to the former stock photo.

Stock photos links are for illustration purpose only! They are not missing persons!


So, if we search in Belgium, Netherlands, Sweden, Finland, UK, we shall focus on brown wavy hair and a caramel or olive tone skin.
Blond hair and very fair skin are not a match, based on post-mortem photo linked on DN.

Also, was Willemijntje under oral steroids when she disappeared? Because on the photo, it seems like she has a moon face from either oral steroids or Cushing syndrome.
With this question answered, I can say "it's obvious that she is not a match at all" or "a possibility, but not so likely".
Because of the scar of her throat on UID, I suspect an endocrine issue, ex a thyroid cancer (treated by oral steroids, surgery or chemiotherapy, depends).

I do not speak enough Dutch for finding about Willemijntje taking or not steroids, or any medication btw.

 

[Bit of hope]

What really bothers me when I compare our JD PM photo (NamUS.gov) with Willemijntje's photo on DN is that:
- face shapes don't match: MP face has a stronger jaw than UID, even when accounting for COD and ageing process
- hair thickness and color don't match. JD has thicker hair, MP has thin hair. Even when you account with ageing, JD has more of wavy hair than straight as sticks hair.
- eye shapes don't match either. Our JD has a more almond shape form of eyes, our MP has more Northern European eye shape.
- Her face color don't match: MP has a very fair skin, our JD is darker (more like a light caramel than a very pale skin).

I agree on this, but may I ask you to present your thoughts more kindly. We are all doing the best we can.

 

[Giuc0]

I do my best, I tried to explain in detail why they don't match so people who reads me doesn't wonder "what is she talking about?".

This situation highlights the issue of citizenship doesn't equal ethnic origin.
You can be of Dutch citizenship, but you are of Morocco descent. Which can muddle up any database research.

I think that we shall look at ladies of Mediterranean Europe or North Africa ethnic traits but with Northern European country citizenship.

Do you think that Israel can also be a citizenship to look for?
She makes me think of a Sepharadi Jewish, I would not completely exclude she made her aliya in Israel and got an Israeli passport before traveling.
In such case, double citizenship is very unlikely, but actually not impossible.

Also, I have a friend who is a Venezuelan Jewish, and is quite similar to our JD.
Uruguay has a strong Jewish community. Would it be worthwile to look for?
As they have more often than not strong descent of Italy, Spain and Northern America, even Middle-East.

And how can we find out if MP took steroids or not when she disappeared?
Her circumstances of disappearance + her face makes me wonder about a side effect from steroids or endocrine disorder.

For our UID, some medicines can create such dental issues which explains the dental findings at such early age.

 

[Hochman]

Added July 26, 2022

 

[DaisyChains]

Any clue if she was of Russian origin and not Eastern Euro (even though dental work was from there)?

Due to various issues, Russia is known to have an unusually high prevalence of tooth decay and dental issues among its citizens compared to Nordic countries for example.

Dental caries experience and determinants in young adults of the Northern State Medical University, Arkhangelsk, North-West Russia: a cross-sectional study - BMC Oral Health

Background Little information exists about the experience of and risk factors for dental caries in young adults in Russia. We investigated dental caries experience and determinants in medical and dental students in North-West Russia. Methods This cross-sectional study included 442 medical and...

bmcoralhealth.biomedcentral.com

 

[DaisyChains]

Considering the extensive European evidence, and the Canadian evidence, my hunch is that she was a European immigrant to Canada.

Yes and New York and Canada border each other.

What brought her from Canada to the USA?

Are Canadian police taking this case seriously?

There is a lot of interaction between Europe and Canada. Dual citizenship is likely. Dental work might have done depending on which country had the best work/deal.

 

[NYanon]

Tried to find what I could based on the notepaper with the writing. Not quite sure I've been researching what's actually written.

Working from a poor quality screen, I'm not very sure about the letters, but the numbers seem more or less clear.

Sas. K. R. 24233 [or 24235]
K. Q. [or R.] B[r?]. 68301
CAlg. 74269 [or 74261]

It's possible the first number could start with a 7; it just looked more like a 2 to me, even when comparing with another present 7.

Something about the formation of the characters, I wouldn't be surprised if they were penned by someone more familiar with Cyrillic (or other script) -- then again, individual handwriting does have its quirks.

The B could also be something like an l (lowercase L) and 3 or S, written too close or one over the other -- if it is a B, this is one of the predominant reasons I might think the writer primarily used a different alphanumeric system, as that seems a formation one might get by learning to draw the shapes of unfamiliar characters.

Have there been any definitive rulings on the letters and numbers (what the actual characters are, I mean)?

[I kind of feel the paper could have its own thread. I do wonder if it has anything to do with anything, but it's also interesting.]

 

[Bit of hope]

Tried to find what I could based on the notepaper with the writing. Not quite sure I've been researching what's actually written.

Working from a poor quality screen, I'm not very sure about the letters, but the numbers seem more or less clear.

Sas. K. R. 24233 [or 24235]
K. Q. [or R.] B[r?]. 68301
CAlg. 74269 [or 74261]

It's possible the first number could start with a 7; it just looked more like a 2 to me, even when comparing with another present 7.

Something about the formation of the characters, I wouldn't be surprised if they were penned by someone more familiar with Cyrillic (or other script) -- then again, individual handwriting does have its quirks.

The B could also be something like an l (lowercase L) and 3 or S, written too close or one over the other -- if it is a B, this is one of the predominant reasons I might think the writer primarily used a different alphanumeric system, as that seems a formation one might get by learning to draw the shapes of unfamiliar characters.

Have there been any definitive rulings on the letters and numbers (what the actual characters are, I mean)?

[I kind of feel the paper could have its own thread. I do wonder if it has anything to do with anything, but it's also interesting.]

I gave up on the note a long time ago, but most certainly not on Ellery Doe. I hope one day we will know her name.

 

[Springrain]

I'm 1000% sure someone has said this already, but the Sas.K makes me think of Saskatchewan, the province, or Saskatoon, the city within Saskatchewan. Calg. makes me think, of course, Calgary. K.Q makes me think of a million different Canadian cities (Kamloops, Kenora, Kingston, Kelowna, etc.), but the Q makes me think of some sort of headquarters. I'm sure this is useless but I just wanted to contribute. I'm 99% sure she's Canadian. There have been multiple Does with European red herrings in the past.

 

[NYanon]

I'm 1000% sure someone has said this already, but the Sas.K makes me think of Saskatchewan, the province, or Saskatoon, the city within Saskatchewan. Calg. makes me think, of course, Calgary. K.Q makes me think of a million different Canadian cities (Kamloops, Kenora, Kingston, Kelowna, etc.), but the Q makes me think of some sort of headquarters. I'm sure this is useless but I just wanted to contribute. I'm 99% sure she's Canadian. There have been multiple Does with European red herrings in the past.

Those are all valid suggestions.

As for the handwriting, we're not sure who wrote it?

Read a few refreshers on handwriting -- while there are some regional / national differences (French, Russian, Italian, for instance), there are many other factors which can influence a person's handwriting (including: style taught by teacher; writing instrument; texture of paper, or whether paper is not used; mood; friends' styles; position of writer). Some styles would be more or less likely taught based on timeframe within a place.

Is Change in Handwriting Evidence of Multiple Personalities & Dissociative Identity Disorder?

I updated this article because Dr. Yank, whose research was sited, stated that I misunderstood her research study from 1991. I am grateful that she came here and gave me this opportunity. Dr. Yank …

mentalhealthmatters2.wordpress.com

(There are comments by a published researcher at this link).

How different is German handwriting from American's?

Here is a bulleted list of my specific questions in case you want to save time not reading what gave rise to them: Do German people use cursive writing often? Is it necessary for me to learn how t...

german.stackexchange.com

What your handwriting says about you

Cursive script for the Roman alphabet can vary from country to country and can reveal much about where and how you were taught, writes Adrienne Bernhard.

www.bbc.com

 

[Find Brenda]

I don’t know how much value the note really has. It might belong to her or someone else. She could have found it for all we know. Might be random chicken scratch. Nobody alive could decipher most of the notes I write to myself.

The only way this will likely be solved is when LE finally gets around to doing genetic genealogy. I hope that is soon.

 

[Mrs. Badcrumble]

Whenever I see someone saying the UID could be European due to "European dentistry", I want to add that there are European dentists in the US too, or US dentists who studied dentistry abroad and came back home and opened their practice there. As you've been saying, "European red herrings".

An example: If my nan had left this Earth a Jane Doe, her dentistry would've suggested she originated from Eastern Europe/Russia, despite not hailing from that area at all. The reason? Well, her dentist from childhood all the way to adulthood was a Russian noblewoman, who had to flee her home country during the revolution. When nan saw another dentist later on, he made remarks about her "foreign" dentistry. There was nothing wrong with her teeth, though, just different work done to them from what was considered "normal" here.