NY - Jordan Neely, killed by chokehold in subway during mental health crisis, Manhattan, 1 May 2023 *arrest*

[maconrich]

He thought this guy was going to go through what it appeared he was going to go through. His read was at least partially right,<modsnip>

I. Want. A. Guy. Like. This. On. Every. Subway. Car.

No one should ever be afraid. I can’t believe there’s an argument here.

I wouldn't. Not at all. Perhaps mental health and/or homeless advocates and maybe LE or security, but I realize how difficult that would be (not enough people in those fields v demand). But fmr soldiers? No way. First off they are not LE, they're not trained like LE - they are trained to operate as soldiers in wars against foreign "enemies" - that does not carry over to US citizens on US soil. Being a fmr Marine doesn't matter. He made the conscious decision to go up behind someone and choke the life out of them. That wasn't the only option available, and it's sad that it seemed to be the only one this man thought of. He had no right and it was not his duty. Period.

 

[imstilla.grandma]

The judge set Penny’s bond at $100,000, and Penny was freed pending trial. He must surrender his passport within 48 hours and he cannot leave New York without prior approval.

Inside the courtroom, Penny faced straight ahead, his hands still cuffed. He spoke softly, offering one-word answers to Judge Kevin McGrath as his lawyer, Steve Raiser, placed an arm around his shoulder.

A freelance journalist who recorded Neely struggling to free himself, then lapsing into unconsciousness, said Neely had been shouting at passengers and begging for money aboard the train but had not gotten physical with anyone. Penny’s lawyers have said he was “threatening” passengers but haven’t elaborated.

Daniel Penny charged with manslaughter in NYC chokehold death of Jordan Neely

Daniel Penny was arraigned Friday in connection with the death of Jordan Neely, after Penny was filmed placing Neely in a chokehold for several minutes on an NYC subway train last week.

fox40.com

*eta:

"After an evaluation of the available facts and evidence, the Manhattan D.A.'s Office determined there was probable cause to arrest Daniel Penny and arraign him on felony charges. The investigation thus far has included numerous witness interviews, careful review of photo and video footage, and discussions with the Medical Examiner's Office. As this case proceeds, we will be constrained from speaking outside the courtroom to ensure this remains a fair and impartial matter," Bragg said in a statement shortly after the arraignment. "Jordan Neely should still be alive today, and my thoughts continue to be with his family and loved ones as they mourn his loss during this extremely painful time."

https://www.npr.org/2023/05/12/1175776831/daniel-penny-criminal-charges-jordan-neely-death-chokehold

 

[angelainwi]

I'm curious as to how people might look at this case if it were a homeless veteran who was attacked and killed on the subway. Would his trauma and service to the country overshadow his outbursts? Would there be more of a call for his need for services rather than the threat he posed to riders?

I guess we don't know, because that isn't how it played out.

THIS! I work with some many veterans that have tremendous PTSD. My heart has a special place for the specific trauma they suffer from. I would sure hope someone would not take the life of one who is screaming out in pain from what he has experienced while serving our country.

 

[Dotta]

Isn't Daniel Penny too young to be considered a veteran (marine)?

He is only 24.

I'm really curious.

 

[angelainwi]

I’ve seen the videos but no linkable source yet so JMO for now.

Hoping they will be picked up by MSM. Also the statements from passengers.

I would have to assume that LE has seen these videos. If someone is posting them online, LE has seen them. And hopefully if these are from the same incident the people taking the videos have sent them into LE.

I do not believe there would have been charges brought forward without the first seeing videos and/or getting eyewitness statements from people detailing what happened before the chokehold started.

 

[angelainwi]

IMO, he was protecting the other people in the subway car from a threatening and dangerous man. He is a hero because he decided to take action instead of shrinking away from danger like 99.9% of the cowed subway riders. Imo, it is disgraceful he is being charged with a crime. IMO, no NYC jury is going to convict him because every working person and every normal person just trying to live their lives in NYC knows how unsafe the NYC subway system is and they are tired of the lack of protection by the NYPD.

This is so curious to me. Like I had said previously on this thread unless it was deleted, I have several lifelong friends with families in NYC. The general rule of thumb is to let their children start riding the subway ALONE to school in the 7th grade. They do not feel their kids are unsafe riding the subway up to 10 times a week

 

[10ofRods]

I think the confusion is because the exact number of minutes was widely reported in MSM to be 15 minutes but the actual video is only for 3.5 minutes approximately.

Ah - thank you SO much @kittythehare !

That's where my confusion came from. I haven't seen or heard the video, but was just reading here and that's clearly where my 3-15 minute window came from.

 

[Ontario Mom]

I'm curious as to how people might look at this case if it were a homeless veteran who was attacked and killed on the subway. Would his trauma and service to the country overshadow his outbursts? Would there be more of a call for his need for services rather than the threat he posed to riders?

I guess we don't know, because that isn't how it played out.

I would look at this case the exact same way I do now. If he were a threat, and terrorizing people, I'd still hope someone stepped up and removed the threat. And I'd still be sad it ended the way that it did.

 

[tara83]

This is so curious to me. Like I had said previously on this thread unless it was deleted, I have several lifelong friends with families in NYC. The general rule of thumb is to let their children start riding the subway ALONE to school in the 7th grade. They do not feel their kids are unsafe riding the subway up to 10 times a week

Have you ever ridden the New York subway?When I lived there it was constant sexual comments,threats,begging for money and threats when it was turned down.

 

[angelainwi]

Have you ever ridden the New York subway?When I lived there it was constant sexual comments,threats,begging for money and threats when it was turned down.

If that was so why are Marines and other good citizens not jumping in and protecting you from these people threatening you! If there are constant threats we should hear these kinds of stories every day. I have ridden the NYC subway many times. Have I been catcalled or asked for money yes. I ignore. I have had a few say stupid stuff to me when I ignore them but I have never taken those threats seriously. Now if one of them had jumped on and gotten directly in my face in an attack posture, that would be a whole different story. However, I have never had something like that happen and neither have the kids I know who ride the subway alone.

 

[shotgun09]

If Mr Neely was on a "watch list" ( for how long? ) as reported, who shut their eyes and looked away? If he was 'watched' as reported, this should have never happened. Where are the other 49 human beings who are on the watch list? < Insert watching eyes emoji here>

The whole event is sad. IMO, the NYC government has dropped the ball, by not locking up or institutionalizing these troubled , dangerous and violent people. And they found instead that they could turn the tables and deflect on their own failures to protect the citizens ..on Joe citizen who was fed up with the lack of response to the violence and fear.

< snipped, from article posted by NYT>

“A note later filed by an outreach worker about the encounter reads prophetically: ‘Due to client’s aggressive behavior, he could be a harm to others or himself if left untreated.’”

https://twitter.com/x/status/1657368867432177664

 

[imstilla.grandma]

Wouldn’t an ex-Marine know how to shut someone up other than using a chokehold? I’ve tried to keep an open mind but his fatal use of excessive force seems outrageous. I wouldn’t call him a hero. I would call him an involved citizen who thought he needed to intervene based his own sense of urgency. I don’t blame him. As an outspoken unafraid old lady, I would have immediately spoken up and got in the face of a public disrupter. Really, sometimes words can be as powerful as physical confrontations. Penny went too far but I don’t think he ever thought Neely would die until it was too late. His adrenaline and testosterone were in climax mode by then and he just couldn’t stop.

 

[10ofRods]

He was on a list informally known as the Top 50, a roster of people in a city of eight million who stand out for the severity of their troubles and their resistance to accepting help. The list is overseen by a task force of city agency workers and social-service nonprofits; when homeless-outreach workers see someone in the subway who is on the list, they are supposed to notify the city and try to get that person to a shelter.

Despite that, and an open arrest warrant, Mr. Neely was out on his own on May 1, when he began ranting at passengers. A Marine veteran, Daniel Penny, grabbed him and choked him to death; Mr. Penny has now been charged with manslaughter.

In the wake of Mr. Neely’s death, the administration of Mayor Eric Adams has been criticized by advocates for homeless people and left-leaning political opponents who say the killing highlights deep problems in the city’s support systems for homeless people and those with mental illness.

Jordan Neely Was on New York’s ‘Top 50’ List of Homeless People at Risk

Mr. Neely, who was killed by another subway rider, was on a watch list for a city task force that kept track of the New Yorkers of most concern.

www.nytimes.com

THIS post summarizes the real problem! Thank you, dear @imstilla.grandma

Open arrest warrant. That's the issue right there. What is up with NYC not having funds to properly contain (in a jail mental ward) people who have actually got open warrants for arrest? What's wrong with the sentencing structure?

IMO.

 

[angelainwi]

If Mr Neely was on a "watch list" ( for how long? ) as reported, who shut their eyes and looked away? If he was 'watched' as reported, this should have never happened. Where are the other 49 human beings who are on the watch list? < Insert watching eyes emoji here>

The whole event is sad. IMO, the NYC government has dropped the ball, by not locking up or institutionalizing these troubled , dangerous and violent people. And they found instead that they could turn the tables and deflect on their own failures to protect the citizens ..on Joe citizen who was fed up with the lack of response to the violence and fear.

< snipped, from article posted by NYT>

“A note later filed by an outreach worker about the encounter reads prophetically: ‘Due to client’s aggressive behavior, he could be a harm to others or himself if left untreated.’”

https://twitter.com/x/status/1657368867432177664

Who is going to pay for more mental health beds for those in need without resources? Have you ever tried to get a stabilization bed in NYC. It is quite difficult unless you have good private insurance or money. No insurance or state insurance and you are out of luck and will go on a waiting list. GOD do I wish we still had the institutions open that were closed under Reagan. You used to be able to get these kind of people committed in one long term.

Yes this was a "bad dude". But the Marine did not know that at the time. He had not read that staffing note.

 

[angelainwi]

THIS post summarizes the real problem! Thank you, dear @imstilla.grandma

Open arrest warrant. That's the issue right there. What is up with NYC not having funds to properly contain (in a jail mental ward) people who have actually got open warrants for arrest? What's wrong with the sentencing structure?

IMO.

In my experience it is a lack of beds. And unless the person with that warrant is actively committing crime they are probably not going to have anything happen because LE is too busy with people in the process of criming.

 

[Ontario Mom]

Who is going to pay for more mental health beds for those in need without resources? Have you ever tried to get a stabilization bed in NYC. It is quite difficult unless you have good private insurance or money. No insurance or state insurance and you are out of luck and will go on a waiting list. GOD do I wish we still had the institutions open that were closed under Reagan. You used to be able to get these kind of people committed in one long term.

Yes this was a "bad dude". But the Marine did not know that at the time. He had not read that staffing note.

He didn't need to read the staffing note, he witnessed first hand that this guy was a threatening presence.

 

[angelainwi]

He didn't need to read the staffing note, he witnessed first hand that this guy was a threatening presence.

So should all guys with a threatening presence on the subway be put in a chokehold?

 

[Sonny Crockett]

To people who say that if you're being threatened/feel threatened by a person/persons on a train/public transportation you can easily move away (in this case, to another car).....well, it's not always that simple. Yes, maybe this will work - but, maybe it won't.

I.e., when you're dealing with someone mentally ill/unstable/unhinged, there is no way to know how they'll react. If someone is screaming/ranting & using threatening language, you could try to move to another car - but this may be all they need to set them off. I.e., they could use this as an excuse to attack you and/or follow you to the other car.

In other words - in some cases like this, you typically don't want to draw attention to yourself.

Due to the witness statements, I completely believe that JN was being threatening & that the subway riders were in justifiable fear of him.

Who is going to pay for more mental health beds for those in need without resources? Have you ever tried to get a stabilization bed in NYC. It is quite difficult unless you have good private insurance or money. No insurance or state insurance and you are out of luck and will go on a waiting list. GOD do I wish we still had the institutions open that were closed under Reagan. You used to be able to get these kind of people committed in one long term.

Agree completely. The amount of mentally ill people (many who ultimately became homeless) walking the street(s) increased exponentially once those institutions were closed.

 

[angelainwi]

To people who say that if you're being threatened/feel threatened by a person/persons on a train/public transportation you can easily move away (in this case, to another car).....well, it's not always that simple. Yes, maybe this will work - but, maybe it won't.

I.e., when you're dealing with someone mentally ill/unstable/unhinged, there is no way to know how they'll react. If someone is screaming/ranting & using threatening language, you could try to move to another car - but this may be all they need to set them off. I.e., they could use this as an excuse to attack you and/or follow you to the other car.

In other words - in cases like this, you typically don't want to draw attention to yourself.

Due to the witness statements, I completely believe that JN was being threatening & that the subway riders were in justifiable fear of him.

It absolutely sounds like he was acting threatening and that other riders were in fear. But to jump straight to a chokehold without the man starting an attack is OVERKILL. Literally. There are many other ways that other riders could have subdued and restrained Neely without killing him.

 

[imstilla.grandma]

Penny’s attorneys said in a statement they believe that, once all the facts in the “tragic” incident are known, Penny will be absolved of wrongdoing.

“When Mr. Penny, a decorated Marine veteran, stepped in to protect himself and his fellow New Yorkers, his well-being was not assured. He risked his own life and safety, for the good of his fellow passengers,” the statement from Raiser and Kenniff law firm said. “The unfortunate result was the unintended and unforeseen death of Mr. Neely.”

Witnesses on the train said Neely, who has a history of mental illness, was acting erratically, leading Penny and other passengers to try to restrain him.

“Daniel Penny suggests that the general public has shown “indifference” for people like Jordan, but that term is more appropriately used to describe himself,” the attorneys’ statement said. “It is clear he is the one who acted with indifference. He never attempted to help him at all. In short, his actions on the train, and now his words, show why he needs to be in prison.”

Daniel Penny charged with manslaughter in NYC subway death, released on bail | Gephardt Daily

Daniel Penny, who choked Jordan Neely to death on a New York City subway train, was charged with second degree manslaughter and released on $100,000 bond.

gephardtdaily.com