Agree with this. If you look back at my posts, I've always stated that the choke-hold shouldn't have been done, especially since DP obviously didn't do this properly. But, I can still see why people were justifiably afraid of JN.
So, given that a good # of people in that subway were justifiably afraid of what JN was going to do, what was the solution?!:
1) Should everyone that felt threatened gotten up en masse & moved to another car, which is something JN would certainly have noticed?!
2) Should they have moved to another car one at a time, so as not to set JN off?!
3) Should one or more of them "teamed up" and tried to restrain JN without using a choke-hold, even though they didn't know if he had any weapons on him?!
4) Should have they waited until JN attacked one or more of them - and then defended themselves?!
I honestly don't have an answer here.
I don't see how an en masse exodus could have been easily organized, but 2) was always an option. What I don't understand, having lived in various European cities with subways, is why NYC can't afford more security on trains (there are often 4-8 security people in major European subway stations - and they take turns being on the trains themselves).
Is there any security at all down in the subway? The number of police who showed up for this event was astonishing to me. But where were the train security people?
At any rate, moving away from the incident of threat is a normal human reaction. I suppose if it were in a different state, someone might have shot him (and gotten away with it under the law).
5) would be leaving the train altogether (I haven't read anything about how far between stops this car was when the incident occurred). I would love to know if the passengers spoke about this once Penny had taken the man into the chokehold.
When I lived in San Francisco, I knew men who carried zip ties with them for circumstances like this. One of them was my brother-in-law. He also studied martial arts and did in fact help subdue more than one mentally ill person - on buses and BART. BART still has problems, but my friends who use it do not say that they feel they're in constant fear.
But what it sounds like, to me, is that other options were not considered because people were so afraid.
I would love to know how many of the passengers had seen Neely before or seen him be even more belligerent. I also assume that passengers did not know whether Neely was armed.
At any rate, if I were actually afraid, I'd change cars. And, if I felt in fear of my life, as it appears people did, I'd have dialed 911 AND changed cars. The police did respond to the 911 call fairly promptly. I guess people on that car must have been too afraid to mention that they had dialed 911 (some had). No one took the role of organizing a mass exodus (the Marine could have stood duty at the exit doors and the two men who helped him could have managed the other door, so that Neely did not follow into the next car). A body block at the car door would have been in order.
However, if the fear was that Neely was armed, then I do understand the mentality of the passengers.
It's my understanding that many of the "50" most needy mentally ill homeless in NYC basically live within the subway system (something that is not permitted in some other large urban areas - it takes effort to solve it though - and money).
IMO.
I respectfully disagree with this. There were at least three additional people we know of that felt threatened by JN on that subway car - other than DP:
The 66-year old woman mentioned in the NY Post article (previously mentioned on this thread)
The two men who helped DP restrain JN. I.e., it doesn't make any sense that they would help with the restraint if they didn't agree with what he was doing & why he was doing this.
I want to be clear that the 66 year old who thanked Penny is NOT the 66 year old woman who was brutally attacked by Neely. She was just a regular subway rider, at least according to the NYP article you mention (there are several NYP articles on this story, I've linked the one who mentions the grateful woman.
All around the internet, I'm seeing that woman being confused (and stated definitively to be) the woman who had her nose broken by Neely. The assaulted woman was also 66.
And I think this all unfolded so quickly that the two men "helping" had very little time to reflect on what Penny was doing and why. I think they thought they were helping to notify Penny of changes in Neely's physical states - hoping that once he went limp (in their minds, merely unconscious?) that Penny would loosen the hold (which is the only ethical way to use a chokehold, IMO). I don't think any of the three men had thought through what was going on - they were just reacting.
We at home are the ones who have time to sit and discuss it. Helping to restrain Neely in no way indicates to me that the two men knew that the chokehold was not going to be released or that it would be fatal.
IMO.
