NY - Jordan Neely, killed by chokehold in subway during mental health crisis, Manhattan, 1 May 2023 *arrest*

[IceIce9]

Lots of people are disagreeing, it appears. I agree with them. My opinion only, but Penny sure has lot's of supporters.

“The man is a hero,” one donor wrote on the website. “He took down a deranged lunatic.”

“I wish this Marine was on the train with me every time,” wrote another nameless donor — who kicked in $100 and identified themselves as a regular subway rider. “Thank you thank you.”

Marcia Mulcahy, who lived across the street from Penny and his family for four years on Long Island, called him “a nice kid.”

“Just look at the "Go Fund Me" to see how people feel about him,” Mulcahy said. “We’re all contributing to it.”

Daniel Penny’s defense fund over $1M after manslaughter charge in Jordan Neely subway death

Daniel Penny, 24, placed Jordan Neely in a fatal chokehold on a Manhattan subway train on May 1.

nypost.com

The amount of support he is receiving is a good barometer of public opinion. JMO

 

[IceIce9]

Does anybody really think a jury of 12 will unanimously agree to convict?

100% no

JMO

 

[HmmMysterious]

Especially in New York. People are just sick and tired of being threatened and harassed when all they are trying to do is walk on a sidewalk or use public transportation.

That doesn't mean having to kill Neely, come on now

 

[Sundog]

That doesn't mean having to kill Neely, come on now

Your post makes it sound like the outcome was intentional, which it wasn't. It was a tragic accident in a danger-fraught situation.

 

[angelainwi]

Especially in New York. People are just sick and tired of being threatened and harassed when all they are trying to do is walk on a sidewalk or use public transportation.

The friends I have in NYC do not feel this way at all. Yes the beggars can be annoying and sometimes hostile, but they just walk on by. It is going to happen in any big city right now.

 

[angelainwi]

Your post makes it sound like the outcome was intentional, which it wasn't. It was a tragic accident in a danger-fraught situation.

How long into a chokehold does it not become intentional? Especially someone trained in chokeholds?

 

[Sonny Crockett]

I want to be clear that the 66 year old who thanked Penny is NOT the 66 year old woman who was brutally attacked by Neely. She was just a regular subway rider, at least according to the NYP article you mention (there are several NYP articles on this story, I've linked the one who mentions the grateful woman.

All around the internet, I'm seeing that woman being confused (and stated definitively to be) the woman who had her nose broken by Neely. The assaulted woman was also 66.

And I think this all unfolded so quickly that the two men "helping" had very little time to reflect on what Penny was doing and why. I think they thought they were helping to notify Penny of changes in Neely's physical states - hoping that once he went limp (in their minds, merely unconscious?) that Penny would loosen the hold (which is the only ethical way to use a chokehold, IMO). I don't think any of the three men had thought through what was going on - they were just reacting.

We at home are the ones who have time to sit and discuss it. Helping to restrain Neely in no way indicates to me that the two men knew that the chokehold was not going to be released or that it would be fatal.

Yes - understood. I didn't mis-quote. I meant the 66-year old woman who thanked Penny & was fearful of JN on the train on 5/01/2023, not the different 66-year old woman that JN had earlier assaulted in 2021.

And, I stand by my comment that the 2 men who helped DP restrain JN believed that JN was a threat, or else they wouldn't have instinctively helped DP. And, I agree with you as well that the two men didn't know the choke-hold would not be released - nor did these two know it would be fatal.

Again, DP obviously didn't know how to do the choke-hold properly, and/or adrenaline caused him to administer this for too long, etc. Yes, he shouldn't have done the choke-hold at all - I think many/most?! of us agree on that.

For clarification's sake, here's the article I was referring to:

Witness says she went back to ‘thank’ Daniel Penny after Jordan Neely chokehold death, is ‘praying’ for him

A straphanger who was on the subway when former Marine Daniel Penny placed Jordan Neely in a fatal chokehold said Thursday she’s “praying” for Penny after it was revealed the 24-year-old would face…

nypost.com

 

[Veronica Sawyer]

I would look at this case the exact same way I do now. If he were a threat, and terrorizing people, I'd still hope someone stepped up and removed the threat. And I'd still be sad it ended the way that it did.

I find it telling that he and the other two men stepped up knowing they were likely to be filmed (with probable knowledge of previous public responses to similar incidents) and they did not let it deter their response. Even once it becomes obvious to all of them that they were being filmed their stance hadn't change. The marine looked up at the phone doing the recording more than once and being that he was doing the brunt of the hold down I simply can’t imagine the end result was the result he wanted in that particular moment, especially knowing it was all being captured on videos that would no doubt be spliced and used against him in the court of public opinion. He could’ve ceased his hold on Neely upon first seeing the phone recording him but he didn’t. Maybe it was concentrated focus or maybe the three men truly had good reason to perceive Neely as the threat they did for reasons unbeknownst to us.

JMO

 

[IceIce9]

The friends I have in NYC do not feel this way at all. Yes the beggars can be annoying and sometimes hostile, but they just walk on by. It is going to happen in any big city right now.

But if one of them threatens that he doesn’t care if he gets a life sentence, it goes beyond a little simple begging.

 

[Sundog]

How much support did Derek Chauvin get? Didn't end up mattering at trial.

I guess we'll see, if the case ever gets to trial, that is.

 

[RANCH]

How long into a chokehold does it not become intentional? Especially someone trained in chokeholds?

Daniel Penny was not charged with first degree manslaughter which would require intent. He was charged with second degree manslaughter which does not.

New York's penal code says an individual is guilty of manslaughter in the 2nd degree if he "recklessly causes the death of another person."


That differs from manslaughter in the 1st degree, where the penal code requires that the defendant first have the "intent to cause serious physical injury to another person" that ultimately leads to that person's death.

What Is 2nd-Degree Manslaughter in NY? Explaining the Subway Death Charge

Daniel Penny, the former Marine seen on camera choking performer Jordan Neely to death on a New York City subway earlier this month, will be formally charged with 2nd-degree manslaughter Friday. The Manhattan district attorney’s office said it was charging Penny without first presenting his case...

www.nbcnewyork.com

 

[HmmMysterious]

Yes - understood. I didn't mis-quote. I meant the 66-year old woman who thanked Penny & was fearful of JN on the train on 5/01/2023, not the different 66-year old woman that JN had earlier assaulted in 2021.

And, I stand by my comment that the 2 men who helped DP restrain JN agreed that JN was a threat, or else they wouldn't have instinctively helped DP. And, I agree with you as well that the two men didn't know the choke-hold would not be released - nor did these two know it would be fatal.

Again, DP obviously didn't know how to do the choke-hold properly, and/or adrenaline caused him to administer this for too long, etc. Yes, he shouldn't have done the choke-hold at all - I think many/most?! of us agree on that.

For clarification's sake, here's the article I was referring to:

Witness says she went back to ‘thank’ Daniel Penny after Jordan Neely chokehold death, is ‘praying’ for him

A straphanger who was on the subway when former Marine Daniel Penny placed Jordan Neely in a fatal chokehold said Thursday she’s “praying” for Penny after it was revealed the 24-year-old would face…

nypost.com

<modsnip>

It's really sad that's the state of humanity these days- people believing the mentally ill are threats. It's also sad that the solution for these people seems to be either jail or the streets.

Seems like Penny wanted to get rid of Neely once and for all, but again that's my opinion only.

 

[kittythehare]

Your post makes it sound like the outcome was intentional, which it wasn't. It was a tragic accident in a danger-fraught situation.

So why was he charged?

 

[kittythehare]

But if one of them threatens that he doesn’t care if he gets a life sentence, it goes beyond a little simple begging.

killing goes a little beyond simple immobilisation does it not?

 

[Sundog]

So why was he charged?

2nd degree manslaughter, no intent.
See @RANCH's post above regarding 1st degree and 2nd degree manslaughter.

You'd have to ask Braggs why he was charged.

 

[kittythehare]

2nd degree manslaughter, no intent.
See @RANCH's post above regarding 1st degree and 2nd degree manslaughter.

You'd have to ask Braggs why he was charged.

Not quite criminal negligent homicide though, is it?

What is second-degree manslaughter?​

Second-degree manslaughter charges are filed when a person "recklessly causes the death of another person", according to New York's criminal code.
In New York state, the jury must find the defendant engaged in reckless conduct creating an unjustifiable risk of death, and then consciously disregarded that risk.
The defendant's actions must also be a gross deviation from how a reasonable person would have acted in a similar situation.
Suspects who unintentionally caused a death, but were unaware of the danger of their actions, could face a lesser charge of criminal negligent homicide.

Manhattan prosecutor Alvin Bragg is confident enough that he can win a conviction that he opted to file charges directly, rather than punting the controversial decision to a grand jury, which can be used to determine whether there is enough evidence to pursue a prosecution.
There has been a growing awareness of the danger of chokeholds after the 2014 death of Eric Garner, an unarmed man from New York City restrained by the neck by police.

But Jeffrey Lichtman, a New York defence attorney who has previously represented drug lord El Chapo and accused mobster John Gotti Jr, says prosecutors will fail to win their case against Daniel Penny because the state must prove that the accused knew his actions could kill.


...

Jordan Neely: What happened in NYC subway chokehold case?

Video shows Daniel Penny with his arms around Jordan Neely's neck for about two minutes and 55 seconds.

www.bbc.com

 

[RANCH]

2nd degree manslaughter, no intent.
See @RANCH's post above regarding 1st degree and 2nd degree manslaughter.

You'd have to ask Braggs why he was charged.

I would assume that with all of the public pressure put on him to charge Mr Penny with murder and after reviewing all of the evidence available to him, DA Braggs would not undercharge in this case. JMO.

 

[Ontario Mom]

I find it telling that he and the other two men stepped up knowing they were likely to be filmed (with probable knowledge of previous public responses to similar incidents) and they did not let it deter their response. Even once it becomes obvious to all of them that they were being filmed their stance hadn't change. The marine looked up at the phone doing the recording more than once and being that he was doing the brunt of the hold down I simply can’t imagine the end result was the result he wanted in that particular moment, especially knowing it was all being captured on videos that would no doubt be spliced and used against him in the court of public opinion. He could’ve ceased his hold on Neely upon first seeing the phone recording him but he didn’t. Maybe it was concentrated focus or maybe the three men truly had good reason to perceive Neely as the threat they did for reasons unbeknownst to us.

JMO

You said this so well. Thank you.

I really do believe all 3 men stepped up to do what they believed was the right thing to do at the time, to protect the passengers from what was obviously (to them, and other passengers) a clear threat of violence.

Not malice, not hatred, not murder, not "lynching", just an honest effort to keep Neely from acting out his threats.

 

[Sundog]

I would assume that with all of the public pressure put on him to charge Mr Penny with murder and after reviewing all of the evidence available to him, DA Braggs would not undercharge in this case. JMO.

Good point. If anything, he has overcharged.

 

[Sonny Crockett]

<modsnip>

It's really sad that's the state of humanity these days- people believing the mentally ill are threats. It's also sad that the solution for these people seems to be either jail or the streets.

No one on here (including me) ever said that all mentally ill people are threats/dangerous. But, some definitely are. There have been documented cases of mentally ill/homeless people assaulting & in some cases killing innocent people. I don't think I need to provide links to these articles, because everyone on here knows (or should know) what I'm referring to.

One of the many, many examples is Michelle Go (who has been previously mentioned on this thread). In January 2022, she was brutally pushed onto the train tracks in NYC & killed. And, the perp. was a mentally ill homeless man.

I could go on, but you get the picture.