GUILTY NY - Karina Vetrano, 30, jogger found murdered, Queens, 2 Aug 2016 #5 *First trial MISTRIAL*

Discussion in 'Trials' started by tlcya, Feb 23, 2017.

  1. hawkshaw

    hawkshaw Well-Known Member

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    Then there is that classic program where the DA wanted to protect the rights of prisoners at central booking waiting to be arraigned. Have a process where the arrestee is brought to a room to be interviewed to give him one last chance to tell his story to get the record straight. They did this thousands of times. In a very small percentage ( 5%) the charges were dropped. LOL.

    There was an honest judge whose name escapes me put an end to all of that. DA didn't like it.
    You see the DA was so concerned with the rights of his defendants it never occurred to him that they in a court building where many lawyers are. Why didn't he go the extra mile and have lawyers, maybe legal aid to sit in while these interviews were going on.

    Intelligence gathering for other more serious crimes with cooperation agreements was the purpose. What really was the purpose was to gather more incriminating evidence against the defendant.

    That Judge suggested once you are in the court building awaiting arraignment it is presumed you are protected by counsel simply because you are where you are.
     
  2. Rocky1

    Rocky1 Well-Known Member

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    Snipped:
    The detective put handcuffs on him but didn't arrest him. Duh..... maybe they were playing cops and robbers.
    What the detective should have said he put cuffs on him because he appeared to be upset and they only wanted to safeguard themselves and Lewis should he panic. That could have flown, this does not.

    How do you know the detective didn't say that?
    He didn't have to arrest him. If you read the article, it states that the detective "asked" Lewis to come to the station, and Lewis "agreed." Lewis went on his own free will.
    At this stage of the situation, the detective was conducting an investigation, and perhaps wanted to gather more information before making an arrest. All they had was his DNA, and had not talked to Lewis at that point. Maybe he had an explanation as to why his DNA was on her. IMO the detective was smart not to arrest him at that point if he didn't have to, although he had probable cause. Why open up the city to a law suit?

    Let's pretend you are a detective for a minute. You are going to transport a potential homicidal maniac that potentially strangles innocent people for no reason without warning.
    Would you put him in the back seat of your uncaged detective police car without cuffs where at anytime he can reach over the front seat and strangle you?
    Regardless if he said he wanted to safeguard himself or not, (and he may have said that, you don't know,) any reasonable person including a rookie detective being on the job for the first day would know enough to cuff him.
     
  3. Rocky1

    Rocky1 Well-Known Member

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    Snipped:
    There was an honest judge whose name escapes me put an end to all of that. DA didn't like it.
    You see the DA was so concerned with the rights of his defendants it never occurred to him that they in a court building where many lawyers are. Why didn't he go the extra mile and have lawyers, maybe legal aid to sit in while these interviews were going on.

    This is the way it works.
    When someone is arrested, they are read their rights.
    Under our sixed amendment, you have the right to counsel before being questioned. Any suspect knows this because they are asked if they understand their rights.
    It's not up to the DA to provide a lawyer. Lawyers are not just hanging around courthouses waiting to provide free counsel. In fact, most public defenders are too busy as it is. In your scenario, who would pay these lawyers?

    Snipped:
    That Judge suggested once you are in the court building awaiting arraignment it is presumed you are protected by counsel simply because you are where you are.

    Really?
    I wonder why he would think that when someone can represent themselves in a trial without an attorney?
    It's not the judges job to ask or "presume" whether or not anyone has counsel until the arrangement takes place. Not before.

    Edit:
    If you read this, you'll better understand how the court system works in NYC.
    Criminal - Arraignments | NY CourtHelp
     
    Last edited: Apr 21, 2019
  4. hawkshaw

    hawkshaw Well-Known Member

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    You put handcuffs on someone you arrested them. If you are into S&M it could happen without an arrest. Eric Sandiford was found stumbling on the Belt Parkway after his friend was killed. Cops handcuffed him for safety reasons. And that is OK.

    Look I am NOT saying Lewis is innocent. I am NOT saying he is guilty. I am not saying cops using trickery as a means to an end is wrong.

    Lawyers? Isn't it part of Miranda that we (police) will provide a lawyer for free? BTW, I don't believe Miranda is a good law. Why would you tell someone he doesn't have to talk to you.

    Maybe instead of handcuffing the guy they could have given him a car VCR device to distract him with cartoons.
     
  5. Rocky1

    Rocky1 Well-Known Member

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    Who says if you put cuffs on someone you arrest them?
    When a search warrant is executed, people are placed in cuffs all the time. It doesn't mean they are arrested. Ask any cop, they'll tell you.
    Eric Sandiford was cuffed for safety reasons because he was stumbling, and that's okay, but a homicidal maniac like Lewis, who is a direct threat to a detectives safety shouldn't be cuffed. Got it.
    No, it's not part of Miranda that (we? the police?) provide a lawyer for free. The police do not assign lawyers to anyone, the courts do. If you listen to the language used (if you cannot afford an attorney, one will be "appointed" to you during questioning) it mentions having an attorney appointed. The courts also decide if you are indigent and cannot afford an attorney, not the police. In most cases, that's determined by providing financial documents etc, however, most judges will automatically declare someone indigent without the proof if there is a punishment of a jail sentence over three years.

    You can read this and get a better understanding of how appointing a lawyer works.
    Rights Guaranteed by the Sixth Amendment - FindLaw
    You don't believe that Miranda is a good law? Miranda is not a law, it's a warning. It reminds us that we have the right to excercise our 5th and 6th amendments, and what you do say if you talk will be used against you.
    Are you saying that you think Lewis shouldn't have been handcuffed, yet it would have been okay with you if he wasn't read his rights?
    I'm not saying that Lewis is innocent or guilty either. 12 members of a jury determined facts based on evidence, so that question has already been answered.
     
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  6. hawkshaw

    hawkshaw Well-Known Member

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    Are you talking about the United States of America? Please come to my home with a search warrant with a video camera to document the the facts, and then handcuff me showing I didn't interfere or exhibited no threat. Do that because I can use the money from the lawsuit I will file.
     
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  7. hawkshaw

    hawkshaw Well-Known Member

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    On a personal note I believe a person, a suspect or a witness should be given a right to remain silent when it is only the truth you wish to establish. But that is my personal view and not the law/rules we are required to adhere to. But that option is not available to use anymore and hasn't been since Miranda.
     
  8. Rocky1

    Rocky1 Well-Known Member

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    I am talking about the supreme court ruling from 1981.
    Here's the rest of it. If you read this and learn what the laws are, it may save you a lot of money.
    When Can Police Place You in Handcuffs?
     
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  9. Rocky1

    Rocky1 Well-Known Member

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    Isn't that the whole reason why cops question suspects? To get the truth? Isn't that what they are trying to establish?
     
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  10. hawkshaw

    hawkshaw Well-Known Member

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    You do realize you just made my case for me? The police went to the home of Lewis and asked him to accompany them to the 75 Pct., instead they took him to the 109. They handcuffed Lewis and there is no indication he was acting in such a way he was a threat to himself or the police officers that were transporting him.
    I am going on the information you provided - Said he was going to the 75 PCT - the investigation emanated out of the 106 PCT., and they took him to the 109 PCT. It suggests to me they were doing everything possible to make it difficult for the parents, and a lawyer to find him.

    Then they take him out of the interrogation room and put him in a cells for 7 hours.

    The reasons you give to allow a police officer to handcuff a person that will not be arrested is perfectly valid. THIS IS NOT ONE OF THOSE CASES - HANDCUFFS = ARREST!
     
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  11. hawkshaw

    hawkshaw Well-Known Member

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    Look, Pal, I am the poster boy for being accused of violating a persons rights by not giving him Miranda. Technically I didn't BUT I was made aware the suspect was given his rights when I asked the police officer who was guarding him by asking the cop, "Did you do the right thing". With that he produced the initialed and signed Miranda Warning the suspect signed.

    I came upon this fellow while passing a small room he was being held in. The kid was reading the Newsday account of what happened. Asked him how was he doing. OK, but this is ********. I asked him if he wanted to tell me about it. He was anxious to tell me his story but said he would ONLY talk about his role in this incident - stand up kid. That went on for 55minutes until I was informed a lawyer called with instructions not to speak to his client anymore. The interview ended in mid-sentence.

    The VETRANO case is a minor bump in the road compared to the case I am talking about
     
  12. Rocky1

    Rocky1 Well-Known Member

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    Lewis agreed to have a DNA test done. Were his civil rights somehow violated because they took him to a different ptc? No.
    Snipped:
    After police matched the DNA Lewis had volunteered, Det. Barry Brown, a 24-year veteran of the NYPD, went to Lewis’ mother’s house at 6 p.m. on Feb. 4 and asked Lewis to go with him to the 75th Precinct in East New York, purportedly for another DNA test.
    Lewis agreed, and Brown then cuffed Lewis—though the detective said in court that he did not arrest him—and drove him for a half-hour to the 107th Precinct, in Flushing. He took Lewis first to a holding cell inside the Detective Squad on the second floor and then to the interrogation room, where the cuffs were removed.
    He Confessed to Karina Vetrano’s Murder. But Did He Do It?
    What does his parents have to do with which pct he went to? Lewis is over 18 years old. Are the detectives somehow responsible to make sure his parents can find him?
    What lawyer?
    Regardless of what it suggests to you, that doesn't "make your case." If that was such an issue, why didn't the defense argue that?

    Snipped:
    The reasons you give to allow a police officer to handcuff a person that will not be arrested is perfectly valid. THIS IS NOT ONE OF THOSE CASES - HANDCUFFS = ARREST!

    This is not one of those cases?
    I don't think you read the previous post I made.
    The detective was transporting a dangerous homicidal maniac in the back seat with no barrier between them. He had reason to fear for his safety. He can cuff him if he wants to. Why? Because the supreme court says he can.
    The Detective had probable cause (DNA) to make an arrest right there, but he didn't. Why? because he didn't have to. Lewis went to the pct on his own free will.
     
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  13. SeesSeas

    SeesSeas FLORIDIAN

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    Anyone familiar with NY jury procedure regarding how a juror becomes the jury foreperson?
    At the beginning of the 2nd trial, below 3/18/19 news article refers to the foreman as a retired law enforcement officer. How was it already known who would be the jury foreman?
    In my state (FL) a jury foreperson isn't selected until after the
    courtroom trial proceedings are complete and the prosecution/defense both rest their case. The jury foreperson is chosen by all of the jurors when the jury begins deliberating in a private room.

    Jury Hears Opening Statements in Retrial Of Chanel Lewis
    March 18, 2019
    [...]
    The foreman, who scowled throughout opening statements, is a retired law enforcement officer, according to a person familiar with jury selection.

    “I haven’t been in court but I’ve heard it looks like they can be fair,” Karina Vetrano’s father Phil Vetrano, who testified at the first trial about finding his daughter’s body, wrote on his Go-Fund-Me page Monday morning. “We were blindsided the last time. How neiva [sic] to think the evidence is all you need.”
    [...]
     
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  14. hawkshaw

    hawkshaw Well-Known Member

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    You miss the point about the handcuffing. I am not questioning the detective handcuffing Lewis. What I am questioning is the detective is said to have said he didn't place Lewis under arrest at that time. PERIOD.
    I was there after two detectives front cuffed a guy being brought back to Rikers. He came as a witness and was very friendly and cooperative. You know the rest of the story.
     
  15. SeesSeas

    SeesSeas FLORIDIAN

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    The Conviction in Karina Vetrano’s Murder Was Swift, but a Juror Now Says It Was Tainted
    April 21, 2019
    [...]
    The juror said he had deep misgivings about the verdict and still harbors doubts about Mr. Lewis’s guilt. He spoke to The New York Times on Saturday, but asked that his name not be disclosed because he said he feared retaliation.

    “This is bigger than Chanel Lewis,” the juror said. “I’m standing up to the system. Showing people what the inside of a jury room is really like.”
    [...]
    Some of Mr. Lewis’s supporters believe that DNA evidence was planted in order to convict him. Mr. Lewis’s mother, Veta Lewis, has said her son was framed. Police and prosecutors have said that the evidence was handled properly.

    In the interview, the juror said he had doubts about Mr. Lewis’s guilt, but gave in because he believed that the judge was going to keep the jurors there well into the night until they delivered a guilty verdict.

    He said he was also dismayed about technical difficulties that prevented the jury from viewing Mr. Lewis’s videotaped confession.

    When the jurors voted to convict Mr. Lewis, it was after 9 p.m. and they had been in the courthouse for about 12 hours.

    “I was getting flustered, having migraines, and they were serving food from a pizza joint — not the healthiest,” said the holdout juror, referred to as “Juror A” in the defense’s motions. “I felt I needed to get out of there.”

    Juror A said he also felt subtly pressured by the judge, Justice Michael B. Aloise, to reach a guilty verdict.

    He said he noticed during the trial that the judge was wearing purple, which he learned was Ms. Vetrano’s favorite color, and he believed it was a deliberate show of solidarity with the victim’s family.
    [...]
    Vinoo Varghese, the holdout juror’s lawyer, said that if it were not for the jurors’ actions and the judge’s decision to keep the jurors into the night on the first day, the outcome might have been different.

    He said his client was steamrollered. “He was bullied in the jury room,” said Mr. Varghese. “That is an insane coercive atmosphere for any juror to be in.”
     
  16. cnmccarthy

    cnmccarthy Active Member

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    Not good! ☹️
     
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  17. Rocky1

    Rocky1 Well-Known Member

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    You missed my point. The detective didn't have to arrest him after placing him in cuffs under the circumstances, according to the supreme court.
    Ask any cop that knows the law. They'll tell you.
     
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  18. Rocky1

    Rocky1 Well-Known Member

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    In some districts the judge selects the foreperson of the jury. In other districts the jurors elect their foreperson and in still other districts the first juror to enter the jury box becomes the foreperson automatically. The judge will inform jurors which method is used in the district.
    U.S. District Court • Southern District of New York
     
  19. Rocky1

    Rocky1 Well-Known Member

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    Interesting, but, I don't think the verdict will be overturned.
    What counts is what's said inside the courtroom, and the jury was sworn to tell the truth. (Solemn Oath) Hopefully, the jury was polled. The jury was dismissed.
    The juror that spoke is anonymous.
    I may be wrong, but,thinking you may have to stay late, are having migraines, eating unhealthy pizza, being dismayed because of technical difficulties,and feeling pressured because the judge is wearing a purple tie, to me, doesn't add up to coercion.
     
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  20. JerseyGirl

    JerseyGirl Staff Member Staff Member Forum Coordinators

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    Attorneys for the man convicted of murdering Queens jogger Karina Vetrano will make their case to a judge Monday. They claim several jurors in the re-trial of Chanel Lewis committed misconduct.

    One juror claims another juror discussed his decision on the case days before it was over.

    Another juror claims a woman on the jury said during deliberations that "she knows better," and that she said "You're just a man. I've been raped."

    Prosecutors say they have affidavits from other jurors disputing those claims.

    A judge will consider the next steps in the case beginning at 9:30 a.m. Monday.

    If he decides to move forward, sentencing could happen as early as Tuesday.

    Hearing set on alleged juror misconduct in Chanel Lewis trial for murder of Karina Vetrano
     

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