NY NY - Leslie, 29, Julie, 6, & Timothy Guthrie, 3, drove away from home, Katonah, 6 Feb 1977

Discussion in '1970's Missing' started by SheWhoMustNotBeNamed, Apr 23, 2010.

  1. Skigirl

    Skigirl Verified expert in neuroscience

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    I was most curious about the mom, but it is also strange that an estranged spouse wouldn't call the police about his kids, I think. I remember those days when divorce wasn't common and people were generally very rigid about who the kids were with, when. If he didn't know the whereabouts of his soon-to-be-ex, I wouldn't expect him to worry, but if he was expecting his kids to come home, I would think he'd be pretty worried or angry or both. Maybe he was but just drew the line at making things ugly by calling the police, or maybe he knew the police wouldn't take it seriously because the kids were with their mother. Still, it seems curious that someone wasn't wondering where they were, unless Leslie often went on short overnights someplace.


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  2. Skigirl

    Skigirl Verified expert in neuroscience

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    Well, one of the news articles mentioned her sister going to look for her when someone called in a report of someone who looked similar in another state. Someone by her sister's unusual name has lived on Lakeside Drive in Katonah. That is only .2 miles from Leslie Guthrie's husband's residence at 7 Grandview Drive. To get to one place from another, you'd have to pass a pond, which is right across the street from where her sister lived/lives. Did her sister live at that location in 1977? Could Leslie have been heading over for an unannounced visit and slid into the pond in the car? I would like to think, if it is a possibility, that I'm not the only one to think of it, but it seems incredible that her sister lived so close by and there is no mention of searching that area.
     
  3. SeanD

    SeanD New Member

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    lake at the end of Grandview, distracted mother, or sleepy, what was the weather like, was it day or night, sometimes that's all it takes for a family to vanish forever
     
  4. Alleykins

    Alleykins Well-Known Member

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    Leslie and the kids' father reportedly had an amicable relationship. He cooperated fully with the police and spent a lot of money looking for them, two things I don't think he would have done if he had harmed them. That's a lot of trouble to go through just to maintain a facade of innocence.
    I checked the weather for around that time. It was cold and snowy in NY on/around 02/05/1977. If they were having a Nor'easter, there's a chance Tim Sr assumed/thought Leslie wasn't bringing them home due to poor driving conditions. I don't think him not reporting them missing is that much of a red flag if the weather was bad. It's possible, however, that she did try to bring them back. Looking over the temps, I'm not so sure they could have gone through the ice on a lake. It most likely would have been frozen enough to drive on had she gone off the road. I'm not sure about any near by rivers or streams.
     
  5. Skigirl

    Skigirl Verified expert in neuroscience

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    I'm from that neck of the woods and bodies of water of any substantial size never, ever, in my memory froze enough to withstand something as heavy as a car skidding out onto the ice. It takes very, very thick ice that only extremely cold temperatures for a very sustained period for ice like that to form. Ice like that was rare, even where I lived in Michigan, which has much colder climate. The ponds and lakes and reservoirs around there weren't even suitable for ice skating because what little ice formed was almost never thick enough.

    Personally, I think the most likely scenario was that there was a car accident of some sort, whether into the water or down a wooded embankment. That part of New York, even now, is very wooded.

    I disagree that her ex went to too much trouble "just" to hide a murder if there had been one. I think most smart people go to quite a bit of trouble to hide involvement in murder. That said, I don't think his being involved is the most likely scenario.
     
  6. AnnieOakley

    AnnieOakley Well-Known Member

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    I actually looked up this thread for this very reason- to see if Leslie had been ruled out as the Allenstown Mother Jane Doe. She is not listed as a rule-out on Namus. If they both have DNA in CODIS, that would explain why she's not specifically listed. But I don't know how to find that out. Kerry Trimble is exactly why I thought one of the Janie Does in this situation might actually be a little boy....

    Long hair on boys was very common in that era. (I'm allowed to say that because I'm from "that era" and pictures of my kindergarten class can definitely validate my hair theory). So, the presence of 5 inch long brown hair doesn't dissuade me from thinking the 2-4 y/o could be male. Or even the 1-3 y/o with the 8 inch hair. Leslie's age at disappearance, her hair color (and length), and height are all in the range for Mother Jane Doe. (I don't see any glaringly obvious differences between Leslie and the Mother Jane composite/renderings, but CarlK and others are much better at spotting those than I am). The estimated time of death isn't terribly off from when the Guthries went missing. Distance is, eh, somewhat close, at about 4hrs away. (I'm more inclined to the possibility of that distance since the bodies were concealed in barrels, not just dumped.)

    Negatives- Four hours is still quite a distance. Somebody was pretty sure these are all Janie Does, and I can't explain the presence of a third child. And I can't really come up with too plausible of a theory there either. The oldest Janie who, in my theory, would be Julie, appears to have some, um, unique dental issues. Unfortunately, Julie's pic is with her front teeth missing, so no idea what her teeth looked like. (I do want to say that it's likely that photo is a school one from Sept, and they went missing in Feb, so her teeth probably would have grown in by then).

    Sorry for rambling. It would be nice to have Leslie on the confirmed rule-outs if that's the case.

    Here's the link to Leslie's Doenetwork- links to the kids are there. The Namus link at bottom goes directly to Leslie's page.
    http://www.doenetwork.org/cases/2935dfny.html
     
  7. Alleykins

    Alleykins Well-Known Member

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    The lakes freeze solid here, enough to drive a truck on. If that's not the case in that area, then I think they should take a look at bodies of water along the route between the husband's house and where Leslie was staying (if they haven't already). The weather was really bad that night, according to historical weather reports.
    Annie, you could still send an inquiry asking if she's been ruled out of the Allenstown case. They won't tell you by what means, but nothing says you can't ask if she has been ruled out.
    They just recently did more thorough DNA tests on the four with new technology, so I'm thinking that they are certain all victims are genetic females.
     
  8. KaylaraOwl

    KaylaraOwl Well-Known Member

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    If they are ruled out, it should happen pretty quickly. I submitted Jan Cotta and she was ruled out within a few weeks.
     
  9. Alleykins

    Alleykins Well-Known Member

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    LOL, I must have submitted her right after you did because within two or three days of doing it, she was on the Jane Doe/Allenstown, NH list. I was like, that was quick!
     
  10. Alleykins

    Alleykins Well-Known Member

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  11. LucyOso

    LucyOso Verified Registered Nurse

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    These are all great points. I thought two of one of the Allenstown's being a boy. This might sound horrible, but I can imagine how much cross-contamination can occur in those barrels. The possibility of an error occurring comes to mind. There are several woman missing with girl/boys. The other thought of them ending up in a body of water seems very probable. Bad roads, mom distracted by kids, wearing boots too sizes to small (painful, also if she knew her car well would change how she braked or hit the gas), and so much water around. A car could easily go through ice if there was impact. It could freeze over. and over time settle deep in mud and silt, even in a shallow area. There are so many missing with cars, and a lot of times they do end up in water. sadly.
     
  12. Alleykins

    Alleykins Well-Known Member

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    They've confirmed, without a doubt, that none of the Allenstown NH victims are male. They did advanced DNA testing on them when they did the isotopes, according to the 2015 press conference. That's when they were able to establish the maternal relationship between the oldest and youngest child victims.
    All three of the Guthries have DNA, and chances are, if it were one of them, there'd have been a match already.
    I'm thinking they ended up in a body of water due to treacherous road conditions as there was bad weather on the day of their return, iirc.
     
  13. DD Byrd

    DD Byrd Active Member

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    I think she took off to raise her children elsewhere. An "amicable relationship" with the husband means what? People didn't talk as openly about divorce, even then. I don't think he killed her or his children and probably very much wanted to find them, but she still wanted out. Katonah is a wealthy community now, and probably considered more so then, so the police did what they could for their own hides. But we're also not talking about freakishly treacherous roads. Have people gone off the roads here, yes. But this is a specific event, with a timeline and extenuating circumstances.
     
  14. VaYank5150

    VaYank5150 Member

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    This case has my attention simply because in recent years, due to advancements in technology, multiple missing persons cases have been solved (even 40+ years after the fact) by finding vehicles in bodies of water. Assuming Leslie drove Rt. 22 on her way back to White Plains, she would have been alongside bodies of water for a large amount of the initial drive. Based on Google maps, the roads do not "appear" that windy or treacherous, but in the winter time, who knows. I n my mind, the fact that the car has never been located leads me to think there may have been an accident on their way home and the remains lie underwater.
     
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  15. Alleykins

    Alleykins Well-Known Member

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    I think when a person goes missing along with their car, it being in the water is usually the general consensus. I read an article on it. I think the cost of searching for it is what holds most law enforcement agencies from searching.
     
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  16. VaYank5150

    VaYank5150 Member

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    I agree with this assessment. And let's be honest with Katonah/Bedford's small population, I have to believe funding could be an issue. On the other hand, shouldn't they have the state of New York Police at their disposal as well?
     
  17. Alleykins

    Alleykins Well-Known Member

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    IIRC, it is very expensive to search the water, especially with the radar equipment they use. I'm thinking part of the hurdle isn't just the cost, but figuring out which body of water to search, too. I can see them searching the water if they knew where to start, but it could turn into a costly needle in the haystack search if they don't have something to go on telling them where to look. Sorry if that sounds confusing, not enough coffee yet.

    But, I base this on the Jessie Hoover case in my state from 1983. She wanted to hike the Appalachian Trail, starting in Maine. She showed up at the park entrance with a windbreaker and a backpack with water and jerky, that's it. No tent, no sleeping, no other supplies. The ranger turned her away, telling her she wasn't prepared, and she headed out, anyway. I recently learned from an article about her that they didn't even try to search for her because they didn't know where to start. Their efforts amounted to asking hikers heading up from the south if they'd passed/seen her, which none of them had. I was floored.
     
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  18. VaYank5150

    VaYank5150 Member

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    Thank you for your reply. I am probably over simplifying what would need to take place in order to prove an amateur's hunch. I do not have access to any of the original police files, other than what is available via news sources, and I just wonder if this theory was vetted back when the disappearance occurred, you know?
     
  19. Alleykins

    Alleykins Well-Known Member

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    It was a good suggestion. I read in one of the articles posted her that a law enforcement agent said the bodies of water would have been frozen over at that time, so a submerged vehicle was unlikely. It doesn't sound like they considered it a possibility, based on the time of year and the weather.
     
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  20. VaYank5150

    VaYank5150 Member

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