NY - Officer Daniel Pantaleo used deadly chokehold on Eric Garner, Staten Island, July 2014

katydid23

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We had a shooting by cop today in LA:

http://www.nbclosangeles.com/news/local/hollywood-highland-shooting-report-284945511.html

One woman said a man ran into a McDonald's shouting that police shot his friend, who sometimes "liked to wave a knife to scare tourists."
A graphic photo from a witness showed officers standing over a man with guns pointing toward him as he lay in a crosswalk.


[ so the cops got a call about a man brandishing a knife at tourists, and they end up shooting him. He is white so people will probably let it go. :shrug:
 

KEVINinTO

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We had a shooting by cop today in LA:

http://www.nbclosangeles.com/news/local/hollywood-highland-shooting-report-284945511.html

One woman said a man ran into a McDonald's shouting that police shot his friend, who sometimes "liked to wave a knife to scare tourists."
A graphic photo from a witness showed officers standing over a man with guns pointing toward him as he lay in a crosswalk.


[ so the cops got a call about a man brandishing a knife at tourists, and they end up shooting him. He is white so people will probably let it go. :shrug:

The photo was taken after the man was shot. Officers had their weapons trained on him as a precaution (i.e. they didn't shoot him while he was lying on the ground). There is not enough information to know if the shooting was justified - although based on the description of the man it won't really matter to most people whether an injustice was involved. I don't see the MSM taking any interest in this. To the MSM only certain lives matter. If, as reported, he was in the habit of brandishing a knife to "scare tourists" I suspect the shooting was completely justified.
 

Sonya610

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A "choke hold" was not applied to EG. The autopsy showed no damage to his windpipe which would be evident if he had been "choked"

The autopsy showed that blood was cut off to the brain as a result of his carotid arteries being compressed.

What these findings tells us is the officer was not using a choke hold but rather a special neck hold referred to as "carotid restraint" or "sleeper hold"

I don't think the cop did anything wrong either.

Having said that, and not sure if it has been brought up before, but sudden death CAN occur from even mild pressure to the arteries in the neck. It can automatically trigger heart attacks etc...in some individuals.

I read about that years ago as a warning for folks that like to engage in consensual strangulation with partners. Even extremely mild pressure can trigger fainting and other problems in some individuals (i.e. the pressure from shaving, turning their head, etc...)


Carotid sinus reflex death has been pointed out as a possible cause of death in cases of strangulation, hanging and Autoerotic Strangulation, but such deductions remain controversial. Studies[citation needed] have also suggested that the carotid sinus reflex can be a contributing factor in other mechanisms of death by reducing blood pressure and heart rate, especially in the elderly or in people suffering from carotid sinus hypersensitivity.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carotid_sinus

Carotid sinus reflex death is a result of vagus nerve impulses which may cause the heart to stop beating, i.e. cardiac arrest. This occurs during strangulation.

http://www.entmags.org/archive/CarotidSinusSyndrome.asp
 

CARIIS

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Statement of Brooklyn District Attorney Ken Thompson on Impaneling Of Grand Jury In Fatal Police Shooting Of Akai Gurley



“I expect to present evidence regarding the November 20, 2014 shooting of Akai Gurley to a grand jury because it is important to get to the bottom of what happened. There is no timetable for the grand jury to be impaneled or for its determination to be reached. I pledge to conduct a full and fair investigation and to give the grand jury all of the information necessary to do its job. That information is still being gathered. As to those who have called for a Special Prosecutor to handle this case, I respectfully disagree. I was elected by the people of Brooklyn to do this job without fear or favor and that is exactly what I intend to do.”

http://www.breaking911.com/here-we-go-again-unarmed-akaigurley-killed-by-nypd-headed-to-grand-jury/
 

ScarlettScarpetta

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Now that we are learning details from the autopsy report a few things are becoming abundantly clear:

A "choke hold" was not applied to EG. The autopsy showed no damage to his windpipe which would be evident if he had been "choked"

The autopsy showed that blood was cut off to the brain as a result of his carotid arteries being compressed.

What these findings tells us is the officer was not using a choke hold but rather a special neck hold referred to as "carotid restraint" or "sleeper hold"

The sleeper hold which involves cutting off blood flow to the brain for a brief period is not forbidden by the NYPD in fact they are training their officers on the use of this special neck hold.

http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/nypd-lessons-force-lapd-article-1.1882111


For this reason alone I can see why the officer involved was not indicted. He was using a perfectly acceptable method to bring a non-compliant man who was resisting arrest to the ground.

I don't know why the autopsy report states COD as "COMPRESSION OF THE NECK (CHOKE HOLD)" when in fact there is no evidence that EG was choked. I thought autopsy reports are supposed to be very precise? I think the report should be corrected (the officer involved should insist on that). The report should state "COMPRESSION OF THE CAROTID ARTERIES (SLEEPER HOLD)"

Now that these facts have come to light the media needs to stop referring to this tragic incident as the "choke hold death of an unarmed man".

Or that he was indeed doing a choke hold and that the man was so big and fighting so hard that instead of the choke hold he intended the pressure was being applied in other places as the man was trying to fight them off.
 

Sonya610

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Or that he was indeed doing a choke hold and that the man was so big and fighting so hard that instead of the choke hold he intended the pressure was being applied in other places as the man was trying to fight them off.

Choking someone involves cutting off their air supply.

This guy went down FAST and went into distress VERY FAST. There is no doubt in my mind that his health problems caused his death.

Choking involves cutting the air supply off long enough to cause brain death (or crushing the trachea). Strangulation involves cutting the blood supply to the brain long enough to cause death. Either way it takes a few minutes in a healthy individual.

When it involves very large HEALTHY males it is not a quick/easy process, the neck muscles protect the airways and arteries.

It seems obvious to me this guy died due to health problems that were triggered when the police applied restraint.

Watch the video, he goes into distress VERY quickly:
http://rbrua3v80lj2rulsf7iqfnpmf.wp...ads/2014/12/Ferguson-Market-Arson-suspect.jpg

(Also note the police woman that briefly (at 1:48) appears after he goes down, I have read she is a Sargent, if that is true she was THERE and if any rules were broken she was in charge and observing and responsible!)
 

ScarlettScarpetta

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Chocking someone involves cutting off their air supply.

This guy went down FAST and went into distress VERY FAST. There is no doubt in my mind that his health problems caused his death.

Choking involves cutting the air supply off long enough to cause brain death (or crushing the trachea). Strangulation involves cutting the blood supply to the brain long enough to cause death. Either way it takes a few minutes in a healthy individual.

When it involves very large HEALTHY males it is not a quick/easy process, the neck muscles protect the airways and arteries.

It seems obvious to me this guy died due to health problems that were triggered when the police applied restraint.

Watch the video, he goes into distress VERY quickly:
http://rbrua3v80lj2rulsf7iqfnpmf.wp...ads/2014/12/Ferguson-Market-Arson-suspect.jpg

(Also note the police woman that briefly appears after he goes down, I have read she is a Sargent, if that is true she was THERE and if any rules were broken she was in charge and observing.)

I understand that but in that moment, In that crisis trying to get this guy down he went for a chokehold to get some control over him. My bet is that by EG continuing to struggle and fight instead of just saying.. Okay.. Okay.. Here are my hands... He has some responsibility in his own death. Had he complied, Had he submitted, had he done as he was told no one would have touched him except to have put hand cuffs on him.

I don't have any issues with this take down. Look how many officers it took to get him down and subdue him. They did not use any weapons or kick him or beat him. None of this would have happened if he had not resisted and fought them.
 

Sonya610

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Or that he was indeed doing a choke hold and that the man was so big and fighting so hard that instead of the choke hold he intended the pressure was being applied in other places as the man was trying to fight them off.

Even if he WAS doing a choke hold, unless he smashed the guys trachea the man would NOT have gone into distress that quick. If the trachea was crushed it would be obvious at the autopsy.
 

bwt42

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I couldn't tell on the smaller computer videos but on our large screen tv (shown on Anderson Cooper), I was aghast. This is my and my husband's (he's an MD) opinions from studying a large screen of the video. I attributed it to her nervousness with the large crowd, filming, etc. But I really don't know the scope of an EMT. (We don't even know her credentials). I just wish that medical intervention had begun then or sooner. I can't watch that video anymore. It haunts me.

I don't mean to judge your feelings. You sound like a good compassionate person. I have seen what happened to EG many times on the tube without it resulting in death. Maybe I've become immune to it. I've seen so many vicious attacks on helpless women & children that what happened to EG doesn't even register a blip on my radar screen.
 

ScarlettScarpetta

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Even if he WAS doing a choke hold, unless he smashed the guys trachea the man would NOT have gone into distress that quick. If the trachea was crushed it would be obvious at the autopsy.

In your opinion?? Because in that moment it is really really fast.. the whole incident is going down without anyone counting seconds.. It is happening fast.. You are hoping you are getting him down fast. I just see nothing wrong with this take down. I am very sorry that EG died but I don't see anything wrong here.
 

CHERIE.T

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Both links courtesy Archangel7 's post from yesterday,

NY, Resisting Arrest Statute
N.Y. PEN. LAW § 205.30 : NY Code - Section 205.30: Resisting arrest
"A person is guilty of resisting arrest when he intentionally prevents or attempts to prevent a police officer or peace officer fromeffecting an authorized arrest of himself or another person. Resisting arrest is a class A misdemeanor." bbm ^http://codes.lp.findlaw.com/nycode/PEN/THREE/L/205/205.30#sthash.XmAOxmeM.dpuf. ^

NY ct interpreting statute re Resisting Arrest
From crim def atty blog w quotations from NY ct opn.
"... To be clear, an arrest for NY PL 205.30, for example, can be established with an
accused merely pushing away and refusing to place his or her hands where they can be handcuffed.
Despite what an “average” person may believe, to commit Resisting Arrest,
one need not become violent or cause injury to an officer....
See People v. Cherry, 307 NY 308, 311, (1954) ".

"...a recent decision ... In People v. Coley 2013 NY Slip Op 50167 – NY: County Court, Criminal Court 2013, the defendant was accused of Disorderly Conduct ... 'impeding the flow of pedestrian traffic.' After attempting to issue the defendant a summons for his failure to leave the location, ...The police attempted to handcuff the defendant who “flailed his arms and twisted his body

[^My red & bold^]. ^http://www.newyorkcriminallawyer-bl...of-legally-insufficient-claims.html#more-1930 ^


Question:
does anyone here who said Mr G was not resisting arrest see his actions differently now? Any changed opinions?
Not asking whether you 'agree w law' or think it's a 'stupid law' or a 'wonderful law.'
Just curious.

Al66pine, this >>> from your link above-------
accused merely pushing away and refusing to place his or her hands where they can be handcuffed

This is what I saw when watching the video of the deceased.
Thanks for your post.
 

Elley Mae

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http://www.world-heart-federation.o...iovascular-disease-risk-factors/hypertension/


It's my opinion that from the moment he started having interactions with the police until it got physical from him resisting arrest is a major reason why he died. He had himself all worked up/blood boiling arguing with them about him being harassed. jmo
 

jennapuppy

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In your opinion?? Because in that moment it is really really fast.. the whole incident is going down without anyone counting seconds.. It is happening fast.. You are hoping you are getting him down fast. I just see nothing wrong with this take down. I am very sorry that EG died but I don't see anything wrong here.

Based on the totality of the events, I have to agree. My initial opinion has changed after I watched the entire video. I'm sorry that EG died, but I don't think the LEO had any malicious intent. I'm more disturbed by the EMT's lack of urgency. They have the training to know when someone is in respiratory or cardiac arrest. MOO
 

Sonya610

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http://www.world-heart-federation.o...iovascular-disease-risk-factors/hypertension/


It's my opinion that from the moment he started having interactions with the police until it got physical from him resisting arrest is a major reason why he died. He had himself all worked up/blood boiling arguing with them about him being harassed. jmo

Did you notice that as the video started the two cops were very stand offish and not saying much. Usually the POLICE do most of the talking, part of taking control of the situation etc... The police are rarely quiet when engaging.

Then suddenly there were a TON of cops, including the female cop observing. The police waited for backup with NO dialogue before the take down.

Seems very very odd. Makes me think there is way more to the story.
 

Trident

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Okay guys, I have heart and lung problems; there are certain positions I cannot lay down in. A person of his size probably could not survive very long in some positions, his organs would have been badly compressed/compromised his breathing and blood flow. I'm relatively slender, and I know my organs are being badly pressured in certain positions, so I avoid them. Then, consider his blood pressure. He was a walking time bomb physically, especially indulging in any type of illegal activity, which he must have known could precipitate a take down.

In my opinion, he was complicit in his own demise, especially if he had any awareness of his physical vulnerability - which I'm sure he must have.
 

ScarlettScarpetta

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Based on the totality of the events, I have to agree. My initial opinion has changed after I watched the entire video. I'm sorry that EG died, but I don't think the LEO had any malicious intent. I'm more disturbed by the EMT's lack of urgency. They have the training to know when someone is in respiratory or cardiac arrest. MOO

I think there is the biggest problem, How long it too EMT's to get into action.. That is something entirely different.
 

Irisha

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Kinda OT

I've been a long time smoker, in all these yrs. I've never ever heard of selling loosey's. People have bummed a smoke, as have I. Which reminds me many yrs ago before my MOMMY passed away, yrs. before that my Aunt got her involved in buying cartons out of state. She did for a few yr. She'd ordered mine too even tho I told her not to I'd buy my own. When she passed she didn't have a will, and somehow the gov. found out she was buying cig. out of state and wanted to tax her estate. I was stunned the gov. even knew how to check. But the estate att. earned his money and the gov. didn't end up taxing her estate.

But still What kind of smoker buys 1 at a time? I don't get it.

I've had to go to way off brand, but I would never buy a single smoke from anyone I didn't know or buy a smoke from someone I did know . WHAT THE HECK???
 

Sonya610

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What kind of smoker buys 1 at a time? I don't get it.

I've had to go to way off brand, but I would never buy a single smoke from anyone I didn't know or buy a smoke from someone I did know . WHAT THE HECK???

A pack of cigarettes runs $13-$14 in New York, so folks apparently by "loosies".

New York State also sued online cigarette buyers, and forced them to pay tax (buying cartons online can be MUCH cheaper even with shipping, websites based in other countries offer major brands for MUCH less, but if they kept records New York would sue the buyers for unpaid tax).

Where is the mob when you need them?
 
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