NY - Officer Daniel Pantaleo used deadly chokehold on Eric Garner, Staten Island, July 2014

ATasteOfHoney

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Well, in this case the multiple officers on scene could have likely surrounded EG and managed to get his hands behind his back without even forcing him to the ground. I mean, 6 to 1? Even with a big guy, that's pretty good odds you can make an arrest on an unarmed man without throwing him to the ground. Tasers would have been a bad idea here, IMO, as I think they need space to be safe and effective.

Officers should put themselves into a fistfight position? Or grapple or suffer bites, kicks?

Ugh...I think they did the best they could at the time to get cuffs on him.
I don't know if they used excessive force but I don't know if the man under arrest was exacerbating/agitating LE either.

Who wins in this case?

Sad.
 

Zuri

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Question: Are chokeholds/sleeper holds/maneuvers to take down suspects by putting your arm around their neck even necessary or a good idea? Especially when there are multiple officers on scene? It seems like people who are not medical professionals should not be taking chances about restricting someone's airway or blood supply, when they don't know what possible serious consequences could result (especially with other medical factors the suspect may have). With 5 or 6 officers on scene, was there no other, safer way EG could have been put under arrest?

This was my DH's question. He didn't know anything about this case until I asked him to look at the video. His first question was "Did this guy kill somebody?" I said no, he was selling loose cigs. He just looked at me. His only other comment was that EG seemed to suffer a cardiac event as a result of being arrested/resisting arrest.

Truthfully, he really wasn't interested in what happened. Apathy? I don't know. This incident just didn't affect him, therefore no interest either way. I don't think his POV is all that uncommon, unfortunately. His life is not impacted by the events in MO or NYC, so why should he care? He works 12+ hour days as a physician, trying to help people in his own way. He doesn't really experience "real world" on a regular basis.

However, LE does. Both professions are necessary for our survival as a whole. JMV
 

jmcgladr

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Unless something has changed, we teach the full "naked strangle hold" to all our US Marine Corp in boot camp. They practice it on one another.

ANY method of force can be used IF it is legally justifiable EVEN if it's against policy. Policy doesn't equal law.
The hold is taught in many if not all Police Academies.
However this EG case wasn't any type or form of that technique.

I'd say the US Marine Corps are a different organization with different objectives, and working under different conditions, than a North American urban police force, so I'm not sure their use or knowledge of strangle holds is relevant. Quite likely, in a war situation, there might be times a strangle hold is necessary. I'm asking whether it's necessary in an urban police setting. Just because it is currently taught in police academies doesn't mean it's a good idea. Maybe it's time to examine the necessity and safety of this maneuver. Clearly NYPD has done just that, because it's prohibited officers to use it. Which I know does not mean it's illegal - but it means it was considered by those in charge and found to be a bad tactic for NYPD officers to use.
 

CoolJ

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Wouldn't legalization and regulation of all drugs pretty much take care of the profit motives of being in that industry? The drug war has been a failure. Drugs being illegal is the only reason why there is a black market and someone can make $1000 a week selling drugs. If drugs were legalized and regulated, and drug addiction seen as a medical issue rather than a criminal one, I don't think we would see so many sad cases of drug addiction out there either - nor drug related thefts/crimes. Just a few thoughts.

Not only has the "Drug War" been a failure but some would say there wasn't even much of a drug problem until this "Drug War" began.

As soon as you add the word "War" as part of a term for a solution, you already lost IMO.
LOL for some reason our society thinks that "War" is the path to peace. That mindset is absolutely ridiculous when you actually think about it, yet that is where we are. Awfully strange to me. JMO
 

jmcgladr

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Officers should put themselves into a fistfight position? Or grapple or suffer bites, kicks?

Ugh...I think they did the best they could at the time to get cuffs on him.
I don't know if they used excessive force but I don't know if the man under arrest was exacerbating/agitating LE either.

Who wins in this case?

Sad.

Watching the whole confrontation between EG and police, I didn't see EG biting, hitting, punching or grappling police. The worst he was doing was saying "don't touch me" and waving his arms around.
 

CoolJ

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Your discussion with Archangel points to the crux of the problem that I'm eluding to. No one is right or wrong but we all have such strong viewpoints.
How can we get to a middle ground?
How can we educate all people?
How can this be remedied so that we live in a safe, productive world?

Is there no solution? I am sincerely asking. Truly.

Very sad situation it 'tis

I am saying the same thing you. I am trying to get to a middle ground.
And I already told you what I think the solution is. All we can do is make ourselves a better person and live with compassion for EVERYBODY. Doesn't mean you have to agree with them.
 

Archangel7

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I'd say the US Marine Corps are a different organization with different objectives, and working under different conditions, than a North American urban police force, so I'm not sure their use or knowledge of strangle holds is relevant. Quite likely, in a war situation, there might be times a strangle hold is necessary. I'm asking whether it's necessary in an urban police setting. Just because it is currently taught in police academies doesn't mean it's a good idea. Maybe it's time to examine the necessity and safety of this maneuver. Clearly NYPD has done just that, because it's prohibited officers to use it. Which I know does not mean it's illegal - but it means it was considered by those in charge and found to be a bad tactic for NYPD officers to use.

They(NYPD) has approved sending officers to LAPD to be trained in the "REAL" hold back in June or July of this year.
http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2014/07/nypd-officers-to-learn-about-lapd-training.html
 

bwt42

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So the bias is perpetuated and nothing changes and we end up with situations such as this. So how do we change? Can we as a country get beyond the bias?

I don't think so. There are two sisters living next door. One pretty, one not so much. They were stopped on the way home from a party for erratic driving. The pretty one was driving & the COP let her go & chewed out the other one for letting her drive.
 

ATasteOfHoney

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Watching the whole confrontation between EG and police, I didn't see EG biting, hitting, punching or grappling police. The worst he was doing was saying "don't touch me" and waving his arms around.

....because LE didn't give him the chance to do those things. What you suggested in your previous posts would've likely caused LE to get harmed. They are paid to do a job by the taxpayers & to do it effectively & efficiently.
 

CoolJ

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Compassion and understanding of what a police officer faces everyday would also help. Perhaps some might have a better understanding if they rode with an officer for a week. They might understand why all officers can't be "Andy of Mayberry".

Absolutely, compassion and understanding for what LE has to do would help. It would help tremendously. It has to happen both ways, but somebody needs to make a big effort to get the ball rolling.
 

Archangel7

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Watching the whole confrontation between EG and police, I didn't see EG biting, hitting, punching or grappling police. The worst he was doing was saying "don't touch me" and waving his arms around.

Possibly you can share your advice on how you would control/arrest an EG who is resisting?
 

jmcgladr

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....because LE didn't give him the chance to do those things. What you suggested in your previous posts would've likely caused LE to get harmed. They are paid to do a job by the taxpayers & to do it effectively & efficiently.

How do you know he would have done anything violent toward police? Do you have evidence that he had done this in the past?
 

jmcgladr

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Possibly you can share your advice on how you would control/arrest an EG who is resisting?

I already have done so. I am not a police officer, but it seems to me that he could have been easily overpowered even with 2 officers, let alone 6. One guy grabs each arm, they put them behind his back, they cuff him. All while standing. How about that scenario?
 

Zuri

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If I am understanding the above posts correctly, the problem is with the initial use of force? Or with the aftermath?
 

Zuri

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I already have done so. I am not a police officer, but it seems to me that he could have been easily overpowered even with 2 officers, let alone 6. One guy grabs each arm, they put them behind his back, they cuff him. All while standing. How about that scenario?

My DH did remark about one cop using a "hammer grip" (no clue if that is the right term) while EG laid on his side unresponsive. Was that because the cop didn't know if EG was faking or not while he was cuffed?
 

Archangel7

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I already have done so. I am not a police officer, but it seems to me that he could have been easily overpowered even with 2 officers, let alone 6. One guy grabs each arm, they put them behind his back, they cuff him. All while standing. How about that scenario?

How, he was refusing to comply, moving away and moving his arms such that they couldn't get them so they grabbed him where they could.
 

jmcgladr

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My DH did remark about one cop using a "hammer grip" (no clue if that is the right term) while EG laid on his side unresponsive. Was that because the cop didn't know if EG was faking or not while he was cuffed?

Not sure. Might be a better question to ask Archangel.
 

bwt42

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And here we go with this again. This is just not true. The leading cause of death for "those young men"(I see you edited your post) is not murder. Not even close. This misrepresentation of the facts is a big part of the divide we are seeing. Using these baseless facts as reason to avoid and invalidate the feelings of a large community of people needs to stop!

http://www.cdc.gov/men/lcod/2010/LCODrace_ethnicityMen2010.pdf

TIA In the source you posted I couldn't find anything about age. Help.
 

jmcgladr

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How, he was refusing to comply, moving away and moving his arms such that they couldn't get them so they grabbed him where they could.

And his neck was the most convenient place? Even though Pantaleo was so short, he had to jump up to even get his arm around EG's neck?
 

jmcgladr

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If I am understanding the above posts correctly, the problem is with the initial use of force? Or with the aftermath?

Just speaking for myself, I have an issue with both.
 
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