NY - Officer Daniel Pantaleo used deadly chokehold on Eric Garner, Staten Island, July 2014

Archangel7

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And his neck was the most convenient place? Even though Pantaleo was so short, he had to jump up to even get his arm around EG's neck?

Trust me, I know what to do. I am asking you. You are describing your method that we should be taught so go ahead from here.....
 

jggordo

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Possibly you can share your advice on how you would control/arrest an EG who is resisting?

This is in no way advice on how to "take down" or arrest Garner. But I have a question. Once Garner became unconscious wouldn't that become an "emergency" to all involved? In the video it seems that NOBODY considered it as one. Rather than advising EMT that he had complained of trouble breathing they are asking how many do you think it will take to get him in the ambulance. Had EMT or police checked his eyes and pupils they would have seen the bleeding in the eyes (and showed up in the autopsy) indicating the emergency. But it seems that all were in agreement that he was just taking a nap.

JMO's
 

leah

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Disagree. It starts to teach morals, ethics and values early in life. Which would tend to lead to a more civilized society.

In your world, but not in everyone's world. You can raise responsible children, without going to church, or saying that prayer, or that prayer. I am not here to discuss religion, unless it has something to do with the way the cops took EG down, or IMO, the distasteful way he was treated while on the ground. Cops standing around doing nothing, and an EMT that looked like she was being bothered by having to show up there.
 

SCHMAE

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If I am understanding the above posts correctly, the problem is with the initial use of force? Or with the aftermath?

I , for one, am much more considered with the aftermath than the initial show of force. Once cuffed, I don't understand why he was still tackled on the ground for so long.
 

TrackerSam

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If I am understanding the above posts correctly, the problem is with the initial use of force? Or with the aftermath?

Both and IMO - loose cigarettes. Why is selling loose cigarettes illegal? He lost his life over a loose cigarette.
 

CoolJ

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Possibly you can share your advice on how you would control/arrest an EG who is resisting?

Well since he was "resisting" through his words (I would call what he was doing as "pleading" not resisting)maybe you could try TALKING to him. You know, trying to de-escalate the situation. The ability to do that is what makes a real cop in my mind. Any dummy can beat someone up, but it takes a true professional to be able to de-escalate a situation through words. And this situation hadn't even escalated that much so it should have been fairly easy to accomplish,
 

Archangel7

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This is in no way advice on how to "take down" or arrest Garner. But I have a question. Once Garner became unconscious wouldn't that become an "emergency" to all involved? In the video it seems that NOBODY considered it as one. Rather than advising EMT that he had complained of trouble breathing they are asking how many do you think it will take to get him in the ambulance. Had EMT or police checked his eyes and pupils they would have seen the bleeding in the eyes (and showed up in the autopsy) indicating the emergency. But it seems that all were in agreement that he was just taking a nap.

JMO's

I have given the post about Care and Control of a suspect upon arrest previously. What we should do, etc. I personally think it was appalling what transpired afterwards but that is based on what little I have(we all have to go on), I wasn't there.

I see NO issue with the legal, justifiable, allowed, approved way he was arrested.
aftermath is a whole 'nother situation and I think some are confusing the two along with Criminality/Civil responsibility.
 

SCHMAE

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Question for Archangel. Thank you for weighing in here, by the way. Why did so many officers dogpile on him after ? I 've described them as footballers because that is the only way I can describe it. I do not disagree with the arrest and/or the need for cuffs. I'm not even 100% sure I disagree with the initial ' chokehold' ( using term loosely, I know it's been described as something else ) But the aftermath I cannot understand except for like a ' pack mentality'. It makes me think that the LEO's on scene are not confident in what the first 1, 2 or 3 are ABLE to do with regards to subduing their 'suspect'?

BBM I wanted this bold so I don't get smacked because I am still a bit undecided .
 

CoolJ

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Disagree. It starts to teach morals, ethics and values early in life. Which would tend to lead to a more civilized society.

You don't need religion to teach morals, ethics and values.
 

Archangel7

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Well since he was "resisting" through his words (I would call what he was doing as "pleading" not resisting)maybe you could try TALKING to him. You know, trying to de-escalate the situation. The ability to do that is what makes a real cop in my mind. Any dummy can beat someone up, but it takes a true professional to be able to de-escalate a situation through words. And this situation hadn't even escalated that much so it should have been fairly easy to accomplish,

I don't disagree with you, however, ONCE a LEO places one under arrest, THAT is the starting point for considerations, under the law, for force and the amount of force. The law as written clearly defines it as does the EXACT POINT of the arrest.
 

CoolJ

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I don't disagree with you, however, ONCE a LEO places one under arrest, THAT is the starting point for considerations, under the law, for force and the amount of force. The law as written clearly defines it as does the EXACT POINT of the arrest.

Well maybe they could have made sure he was calmed down and had a chance to tell his side of the story before they decided to arrest him. Seems like a no brainer if you truly don't want to hurt anybody. Personally, I think they just find it fun to be able beat up on a guy. I think they enjoy this stuff , it makes for good stories and high fives after the paper work is done. JMO
 

Archangel7

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Question for Archangel. Thank you for weighing in here, by the way. Why did so many officers dogpile on him after ? I 've described them as footballers because that is the only way I can describe it. I do not disagree with the arrest and/or the need for cuffs. I'm not even 100% sure I disagree with the initial ' chokehold' ( using term loosely, I know it's been described as something else ) But the aftermath I cannot understand except for like a ' pack mentality'. It makes me think that the LEO's on scene are not confident in what the first 1, 2 or 3 are ABLE to do with regards to subduing their 'suspect'?

BBM I wanted this bold so I don't get smacked because I am still a bit undecided .

I can't explain it, but I've seen it countless times. I think they think they are helping, or possible getting a position before the flailing etc. begin. EG was a big guy, you have to assume the worst and adjust quickly down from that based on suspect resistance.
It is up to the arresting officer to take some initiative too WRT help needed and any abuse prevented or stopped.
 

ATasteOfHoney

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How do you know he would have done anything violent toward police? Do you have evidence that he had done this in the past?

To be comprehensive, one would have to review the details of his 31 previous arrests to know. Frankly, I personally don't have time for that.
 

jggordo

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Once this chokehold is administered successfully how long is the person arrested usually unconscious before regaining it?

Just wondering.
 

CoolJ

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When did they place him under arrest? How was it worded? I am not even sure if they actually did place him under arrest.

Just watched it again and I still do not consider what he was doing as resisting arrest. He is pleading to have a conversation and talk about it. There is no doubt in my mind he would have done what they said. He just wanted to talk about WHY. What's the big deal. Talk to him for a bit in a respectful way and things would have been fine.
 

Archangel7

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Well maybe they could have made sure he was calmed down and had a chance to tell his side of the story before they decided to arrest him. Seems like a no brainer if you truly don't want to hurt anybody. Personally, I think they just find it fun to be able beat up on a guy. I think they enjoy this stuff , it makes for good stories and high fives after the paper work is done. JMO

EG had equal responsibility not to be exposed to potential injury. He resisted a lawful arrest and was taken into custody appropriately and by the letter and spirit of the law. No more no less.
It is ridiculous to think cops enjoy having to roll around on the ground to effect an arrest or hurting people. Your statement seems to indicate speculation and painting with a broad brush.
 

bwt42

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Both and IMO - loose cigarettes. Why is selling loose cigarettes illegal? He lost his life over a loose cigarette.

And if he died after resisting arrest for urinating in public you could say he died for taking a leak.
 

leah

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The EMT, talked to EG like he was aware of what was going on. She must have been just doing that for show, doesn't take somebody with medical training to know he wasn't able to speak. And this was all with videos being taken, I really don't want to think what may have happened without the videos. Did EG always sell cigarettes in front of those particular storefronts, I wonder, you would think he would go sell them at the park, or other areas, not in front of stores.
 

jmcgladr

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To be comprehensive, one would have to review the details of his 31 previous arrests to know. Frankly, I personally don't have time for that.

I don't have the time for that either. Nor do I know if that information is even available to the public. The pertinent question, I think, is did the police officers on scene have reason to think that he would do anything violent toward them? Just based on what I saw on the video, I would say "no."
 

CoolJ

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Once this chokehold is administered successfully how long is the person arrested usually unconscious before regaining it?

Just wondering.

From studying jujitsu for years, my experience would be usually less than 10 seconds. Much longer than that and you start to worry.
 
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