NY - Officer Daniel Pantaleo used deadly chokehold on Eric Garner, Staten Island, July 2014

Archangel7

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Do chokeholds always render the person unconscious? Is that their purpose in general? I never thought about this before.

There are "choke holds" that choke the air from entering the lungs.
There are "choke holds" that restrict/shut off arterial flow of blood to the brain.
Usually the nomenclature is chokehold or stanglehold. The media as usual can't get this correct either.

A hold in LE parlance, is a physical restriction to cause compliance be it an arm hold etc.
 

jmcgladr

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Because it is federally controlled and TAXED. If he was selling them for $7 a pack (in new york they are $12-14 a pack) they were definitely black market UNTAXED cigarettes that were in all likelihood stolen from stores.

Cigarette theft is a HUGE problem even in GA where they less than half the price than NYC. Some convenience stores have gangs buying them up using stolen credit cards so they can be sold black market (an easy way to turn stolen credit cards into cash), sheesh even the convenience store in a VERY rural area a few miles away from me got broken into one night and had all of their cigarettes stolen.

Selling untaxed cigarettes is NOT a victimless crime especially when most are stolen from honest business owners.

How do you know EG wasn't buying those cigs legally and reselling them? I know that's still technically illegal, but there is no evidence that I have seen that these cigarettes were stolen. I am sure this sometimes happens, but we don't know that it happened in this case.
 

bwt42

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How do you know EG wasn't buying those cigs legally and reselling them? I know that's still technically illegal, but there is no evidence that I have seen that these cigarettes were stolen. I am sure this sometimes happens, but we don't know that it happened in this case.

Why are we arguing about the degree of illegality?
 

cady

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How do you know EG wasn't buying those cigs legally and reselling them? I know that's still technically illegal, but there is no evidence that I have seen that these cigarettes were stolen. I am sure this sometimes happens, but we don't know that it happened in this case.

LOL Kind of OT, but I was thinking, since the people buying the "loosies" are probably just wanting a nicotine fix, they wouldn't care about the brand. So if he just bought a load of tobacco and rolled his own, he probably could have made a substantial profit without anyone knowing where the tobacco came from. JMO
 

Gardenlady

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LOL Kind of OT, but I was thinking, since the people buying the "loosies" are probably just wanting a nicotine fix, they wouldn't care about the brand. So if he just bought a load of tobacco and rolled his own, he probably could have made a substantial profit without anyone knowing where the tobacco came from. JMO

Honestly, I know if I am ever caught without a smoke and needed one, I would gladly buy one and really wouldn't care where it came from! :D


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jmcgladr

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Why are we arguing about the degree of illegality?

Because theft is a more major offense, and selling loose cigarettes is a very minor offense, one many of us have questioned as to why it even should be considered an offense.
 

Elley Mae

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Why are we arguing about the degree of illegality?

I don't know, it's about him resisting arrest and what happened after. It really doesn't matter what he was doing, if it was illegal that's all it took.
 

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Both and IMO - loose cigarettes. Why is selling loose cigarettes illegal? He lost his life over a loose cigarette.

He was selling untaxed loose cigarettes. Mayor De Blasio is the one who tasked NYPD with enforcing cigarette tax laws.

What is pure hypocrisy on De Blasio's behalf is for him to stand in front of news cameras and pretend to be horrified that his master plan backfired. Then he went on some tangent about his fear for his own son. Gimme a bleeping break. :facepalm:
 

al66pine

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Selling Loosie/Untaxed Cigs and MrG's Death
....This is a stupid law, but not only that, it's not one worth losing a life over. Not worth harming another human being for breaking it. ....I wonder what kind of country we are living in when a guy ends up dead for selling loose cigs ...

Respectfully, LE did not kill MrG for selling loosie /untaxed gigs. LE used force in response to MrG's actions in resisting arrest.
Unfortunately, that force contributed to his death.
We can discuss what kind of hold LEO used and whether it violated NYC PD policy, whether policy is good, bad or indifferent, blah blah.
But MrG resisted arrest.

To anyone who thinks EG was complying w LEO's requests,
pls cut & paste a screen cap of EG holding his hands out to be cuffed - either in front or back - and provide link.

JM2cts.
 

cady

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Because theft is a more major offense, and selling loose cigarettes is a very minor offense, one many of us have questioned as to why it even should be considered an offense.

Seems to me that the offense is vending without a license, or loitering. But I guess poor loosie sellers are severely ripping off the tax base of NYC. JMO
 

Gardenlady

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He was selling untaxed loose cigarettes. Mayor De Blasio is the one who tasked NYPD with enforcing cigarette tax laws.

What is pure hypocrisy on De Blasio's behalf is for him to stand in front of news cameras and pretend to be horrified that his master plan backfired. Then he went on some tangent about his fear for his own son. Gimme a bleeping break. :facepalm:

Why is it hypocrisy? Sure, I agree it's a stupid law. But just because you support a law doesn't mean you're in favor of people dying over it.

And his kids and wife are all people of color - why is it wrong or hypocritical for him to be afraid this could happen to them?! It happens to people of color from all socioeconomic groups.


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Gardenlady

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Selling Loosie/Untaxed Cigs and MrG's Death


Respectfully, LE did not kill MrG for selling loosie /untaxed gigs. LE used force in response to MrG's actions in resisting arrest.
Unfortunately, that force contributed to his death.
We can discuss what kind of hold LEO used and whether it violated NYC PD policy, whether policy is good, bad or indifferent, blah blah.
But MrG resisted arrest.

To anyone who thinks EG was complying w LEO's requests,
pls cut & paste a screen cap of EG holding his hands out to be cuffed - either in front or back - and provide link.

JM2cts.

They chose to go in with amount of force they did. I don't think it's a stretch to say that he is dead because they over zealously and with excessive force decided to go after him for selling loose cigs.


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RANCH

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Because theft is a more major offense, and selling loose cigarettes is a very minor offense, one many of us have questioned as to why it even should be considered an offense.

If tax's were voluntary I don't think much would be collected. JMO.
 

jmcgladr

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He was selling untaxed loose cigarettes. Mayor De Blasio is the one who tasked NYPD with enforcing cigarette tax laws.

What is pure hypocrisy on De Blasio's behalf is for him to stand in front of news cameras and pretend to be horrified that his master plan backfired. Then he went on some tangent about his fear for his own son. Gimme a bleeping break. :facepalm:

How much of this do we lay at DiBlasio's feet, and how much at the recent (and return) appointment of William Bratton, who is famous for his "zero tolerance" and "broken window" policing policies? I think the police commissioner has more direct impact on police policies and procedures than the mayor. Not saying DiBlasio is doing everything right, he clearly isn't. But this policy is much older than him.
 

CoolJ

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No, you evaluate the reality of the situation at hand and respond accordingly. That response would be along the lines of enforcing the law with an eye towards protection for all(LE and citizens)and getting the job done efficiently.

Job done efficiently? Uhhh.. Somebody died....
 

Elley Mae

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cady

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He was selling untaxed loose cigarettes. Mayor De Blasio is the one who tasked NYPD with enforcing cigarette tax laws.

What is pure hypocrisy on De Blasio's behalf is for him to stand in front of news cameras and pretend to be horrified that his master plan backfired. Then he went on some tangent about his fear for his own son. Gimme a bleeping break. :facepalm:

I do not know if EG was a member of a "ring", but there are free enterprising criminal rings that profit from the cigarette smuggling phenomenon. My guess is that was what De Blasio wanted to crack down on. Dunno, but I can't believe his marching orders were to nail petty peddlers. JMO
 

cady

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Job done efficiently? Uhhh.. Somebody died....

YUP and now he cannot be interrogated about his source. Just one dead loosie guy. Commendations for all involved in the arrest. JMO
 

SCHMAE

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Selling Loosie/Untaxed Cigs and MrG's Death


Respectfully, LE did not kill MrG for selling loosie /untaxed gigs. LE used force in response to MrG's actions in resisting arrest.
Unfortunately, that force contributed to his death.
We can discuss what kind of hold LEO used and whether it violated NYC PD policy, whether policy is good, bad or indifferent, blah blah.
But MrG resisted arrest.

To anyone who thinks EG was complying w LEO's requests,
pls cut & paste a screen cap of EG holding his hands out to be cuffed - either in front or back - and provide link.


JM2cts.

Oops !
 

Archangel7

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See here is the problem. You are an officer, and you are approaching an entire group of people as if they are all a threat to you.

This is dehumanizing. And people wonder why we are suspicious of LE? Because they've already got us ALL pegged as the enemy in a war. :banghead:


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Hyperbole.
The Police have a RIGHT under law to assume in an interaction, that the SUSPECT(not the entire population of the planet) could be armed and for officer protection can DETERMINE that by a cursory frisk.

Now, it's not a bad idea to keep in the back of one's mind that a group(depending on the precise circumstance MAY be armed) but it isn't the primary thought as one approaches routinely, unless conditions suggest it.

I'm really concerned with the deduction and lack of logic your post indicates towards reality of Police work. Or am I misreading your posted words?
 
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