NY NY - Rochester, Haag House, UncMale 50, UP14163, & 2 UncFems 40, UP14162 & UP12468, Apr'88

[madamx]

I just came across this and did not find a thread for it, so I thought I would make one.. I wish there was much more information on this one. Its really vague. Its under male but then says its remains of at least three people.
I know in the past I have read on some other threads that when they really cannot identify remains they category them as male. So these may or may not be all male remains.

Case #14163

Date found
April 20, 1988

Age
50 to 100 years old

Sex
Male

Race
Unsure

Ethnicity
Unsure

Circumstances
Co-mingled remains of at least 3 individuals, found in a vacant building.



Address
511 East Main St.


City
County
Monroe

State
New York


Body condition
Not recognizable - Partial skeletal parts only
Post-mortem interval
Not specified

Estimated age
Adult

Weight
null lbs

Height
65 inches


https://lostandfound.revealnews.org...&end_date=12/31/1989&unidentifiedperson=14163

https://identifyus.org/en/cases/14163

 

[Eddie99]

This is an odd one....
I live in Monroe Country..... never heard of this before.

I wish they published more information ..

If they think its nefarious, or something else.

 

[madamx]

I came across more information on this. The Haunting at Haag House

The Victorian home’s façade wouldn’t be seen again for another 60 years. In 1987, a local developer purchased the Haag property with an eye to repurpose the building into an upscale restaurant and office space.

One worker shoveling debris from the ceiling received the shock of his life when he spotted a leg bone with a foot attached. The bone had fallen from the space between the first floor ceiling and second floor’s floor. When the second floor was torn up, three other bones, presumably from arms and legs, were discovered. By the time investigators concluded their search of the building, about 25 bones of varying sizes-including an entire lower leg with mummified skin and toenails- had been uncovered at the scene.

The forensic scientists assigned to the case in 1988 drew several conclusions after subjecting the evidence to a barrage of tests. They determined that the bones had come from three different individuals, a man over 50 and two women in their 40s. They hypothesized that the victims had been murdered as long as 100 years before and that considering how well the body parts had been preserved, the bones must have been hidden during winter time and “freeze-dried.” The bones appeared to have been professionally cut by a meat saw, like the kind found in a butcher shop. And perhaps most disturbingly, the scientists indicated that the victims may have been dismembered prior to their death.

Though the forensic experts were able to uncover a wealth of information from the gruesome evidence, three major questions remained unanswered: Who were the murder victims? Who had killed them? And how?

Investigators at the time noted that the case would remain open despite its age, but that without additional evidence, they might never be able to unravel the 100 year old mystery.

 

[madamx]

How To Identify An Unidentified Body

There’s a gruesome case from 1988 that the former Rochester Times-Union described at the time as a case of “a butcher gone mad”. An excavator working in a building in downtown Rochester that had once housed a butcher shop pulled down the first-floor ceiling to see a man’s mummified foot and severed lower leg tumble out. A closer look uncovered 20 to 25 pieces of bone, including the partial skeletal remains of a woman – she was around 40, maybe five foot three – mingled with the remains of at least one other woman and the man in the floor joists. It looked like they had been cut up with a meat saw.

 

[Bit of hope]

Found another article. A little more specific info about the time the Haag house was built. (Between 1857 and 1975) Ceiling plaster looked undisturbed, floor all in tact. IMO the body's are likely put there when this house was (re)built. lf the body-parts are about a 100 years old, that would mean they were killed around 1888. Haag was living there already with his family. "His daughter Louisa held her wedding at the home in 1881". Something in the timeline is not adding up knowing what we know right now. Haag being a skilled butcher, having his own meet market in the 1850's. Hmmmmm.

Workers find human bones in ceiling of century-old building

April, 1988
ROCHESTER, N.Y. -- Workers renovating a century-old building found a cache of human bones in a ceiling, and the medical examiner said Thursday the limbs may have been sawed from the bodies of more than one person.

The bones, discovered Wednesday, appear to be several years -- if not several decades -- old, said Dr. Nicholas Forbes, Monroe County medical examiner.

'This kind of thing is challenging,' Forbes said at a news conference during which legs, arms and a shoulder blade bones were displayed.

The bones were found Wednesday by workers in a 19th century building in a rundown block of downtown Rochester.

'I was cleaning the floor up and I just found some bones,' said Jeff Abel, 31. 'It was the bottom of the leg with a foot, and I could see the skin and the fingernail attached. It kind of shocked me.'

Police were called to the building, which was originally built as a house by Bernard Haag, a German immigrant butcher, sometime between 1857 and 1875.

Homicide detectives said the condition of the bones indicated foul play.

'It's probably going to be one of the most interesting investigations we've conducted in a long, long time,' said Maj. William Mayer, commander of the police Criminal Investigation Division.

Forbes said a preliminary examination of the bones revealed that they had been cleanly cut or sawed. The medical examiner said the lack of a skull or rib cage will make it difficult to determine the sex or race of the victim or victims.

'The possibility exists at this time that there may be more than one individual,' Forbes said, explaining that some of the bones appear to be duplicate body parts.

Dr. William C. Rodriguez, a forensic anthropologist with the Onondaga County medical examiner's office in Syracuse, has agreed to help determine how old the people were when they died and when they died, Forbes said.

Edward Monroe, one of the workers excavating the building, said the bones were likely sealed in the space between the first and second floors since the structure was built.

'The floor was all intact and it had hardwood floor on it, and the plaster has been there ever since the building has been built. It doesn't look like it has been touched,' Monroe said.

The building where the remains were found -- on the corner of East Main and Scio streets -- housed a massage parlor, a barber shop, and various other businesses before being condemned in the 1970s.

The business storefronts were built around a Victorian-style house seven decades ago. Work began earlier this year to demolish the storefronts while saving the historic house for use as a restaurant or office complex.

 

[Bit of hope]

How To Identify An Unidentified Body

There’s a gruesome case from 1988 that the former Rochester Times-Union described at the time as a case of “a butcher gone mad”. An excavator working in a building in downtown Rochester that had once housed a butcher shop pulled down the first-floor ceiling to see a man’s mummified foot and severed lower leg tumble out. A closer look uncovered 20 to 25 pieces of bone, including the partial skeletal remains of a woman – she was around 40, maybe five foot three – mingled with the remains of at least one other woman and the man in the floor joists. It looked like they had been cut up with a meat saw.

Found another article. A little more specific info about the time the Haag house was built. (Between 1857 and 1975) Ceiling plaster looked undisturbed, floor all in tact. IMO the body's are likely put there when this house was (re)built. lf the body-parts are about a 100 years old, that would mean they were killed around 1888. Haag was living there already with his family. "His daughter Louisa held her wedding at the home in 1881". Something in the timeline is not adding up knowing what we know right now. Haag being a skilled butcher, having his own meet market in the 1850's. Hmmmmm.

Workers find human bones in ceiling of century-old building

April, 1988
ROCHESTER, N.Y. -- Workers renovating a century-old building found a cache of human bones in a ceiling, and the medical examiner said Thursday the limbs may have been sawed from the bodies of more than one person.

The bones, discovered Wednesday, appear to be several years -- if not several decades -- old, said Dr. Nicholas Forbes, Monroe County medical examiner.

'This kind of thing is challenging,' Forbes said at a news conference during which legs, arms and a shoulder blade bones were displayed.

The bones were found Wednesday by workers in a 19th century building in a rundown block of downtown Rochester.

'I was cleaning the floor up and I just found some bones,' said Jeff Abel, 31. 'It was the bottom of the leg with a foot, and I could see the skin and the fingernail attached. It kind of shocked me.'

Police were called to the building, which was originally built as a house by Bernard Haag, a German immigrant butcher, sometime between 1857 and 1875.

Homicide detectives said the condition of the bones indicated foul play.

'It's probably going to be one of the most interesting investigations we've conducted in a long, long time,' said Maj. William Mayer, commander of the police Criminal Investigation Division.

Forbes said a preliminary examination of the bones revealed that they had been cleanly cut or sawed. The medical examiner said the lack of a skull or rib cage will make it difficult to determine the sex or race of the victim or victims.

'The possibility exists at this time that there may be more than one individual,' Forbes said, explaining that some of the bones appear to be duplicate body parts.

Dr. William C. Rodriguez, a forensic anthropologist with the Onondaga County medical examiner's office in Syracuse, has agreed to help determine how old the people were when they died and when they died, Forbes said.

Edward Monroe, one of the workers excavating the building, said the bones were likely sealed in the space between the first and second floors since the structure was built.

'The floor was all intact and it had hardwood floor on it, and the plaster has been there ever since the building has been built. It doesn't look like it has been touched,' Monroe said.

The building where the remains were found -- on the corner of East Main and Scio streets -- housed a massage parlor, a barber shop, and various other businesses before being condemned in the 1970s.

The business storefronts were built around a Victorian-style house seven decades ago. Work began earlier this year to demolish the storefronts while saving the historic house for use as a restaurant or office complex.

I like Lori anyway. I'm sure she will do anything in her power to get people identified. Unfortunately she didn't succeed in identifying Ellery Doe after all this years. So sad. What a job.

 

[Tssiemer]

If there’s still skin and ligaments and toe nails attached they can’t be that old can they?

 

[Bit of hope]

If there’s still skin and ligaments and toe nails attached they can’t be that old can they?

I guess LE is not that crazy.

 

[Bit of hope]

Here are the Namus files for the 2 women, found tangled in with the bones of the male.

The National Missing and Unidentified Persons System (NamUs) Estimated 40 years, 5'3"
The National Missing and Unidentified Persons System (NamUs) Estimated 40 years, 5'4"

Not much to go on. Both: Head not recovered Torso not recovered One or more limbs not recovered One or both hands not recovered.

Because the ceiling and the floor were untouched for 60 years, they must have been put there together, at the same time.

I wonder what was the setting, 4 people, two men, two women same age, maybe two couples, a couple with a female friend? It could be anything.

 

[Coffee56]

Fascinated. I've never seen this before. Where are all the missing body parts. I get the impression they remained untouched since they were placed there so where did they go?

 

[Bit of hope]

Fascinated. I've never seen this before. Where are all the missing body parts. I get the impression they remained untouched since they were placed there so where did they go?

Haha...don't get me going….sorry....but off course you have a point.

 

[Coffee56]

Little more history on the house.

haag house 16 july 1985 - Newspapers.com

 

[Coffee56]

bernard haag - Newspapers.com

 

[madamx]

This case is so weird.. and disturbing. Who are these people and how could nobody notice 3 people missing? Or report 3 people missing at the same time.?

 

[Mrs. Badcrumble]

This case is so weird.. and disturbing. Who are these people and how could nobody notice 3 people missing? Or report 3 people missing at the same time.?

But are we sure these people were killed at the same time? We're kinda just assuming the three had a connection and went missing together, but what if they were three different incidents? That could also answer why no one noticed three people disappearing -simply because three people didn't disappeared at the same time.

Another thing: Several links/posts upthread have speculated if the remains could be as much as a hundred years old. It makes me think of how for example H. H. Holmes, or Belle Gunnes got away with what they did for a long time: Exploiting the fact that sometimes people would just pack up and leave, or never arrived in the first place. This case also reminds me of the six bodies found in Eugene Butler's crawlspace, and that poor basement girl in Harrisburg, both cases over a hundred years old, and we're still clueless to who these people were. Perhaps they were alone? Immigrants? With no families in the US to look for them, non-existent network, or perhaps they were just "passing through" and simply crossed path with the wrong kind of people? Who knows? We tend to forget that times were different back then.

 

[madamx]

But are we sure these people were killed at the same time? We're kinda just assuming the three had a connection and went missing together, but what if they were three different incidents? That could also answer why no one noticed three people disappearing -simply because three people didn't disappeared at the same time.

Another thing: Several links/posts upthread have speculated if the remains could be as much as a hundred years old. It makes me think of how for example H. H. Holmes, or Belle Gunnes got away with what they did for a long time: Exploiting the fact that sometimes people would just pack up and leave, or never arrived in the first place. This case also reminds me of the six bodies found in Eugene Butler's crawlspace, and that poor basement girl in Harrisburg, both cases over a hundred years old, and we're still clueless to who these people were. Perhaps they were alone? Immigrants? With no families in the US to look for them, non-existent network, or perhaps they were just "passing through" and simply crossed path with the wrong kind of people? Who knows? We tend to forget that times were different back then.

Yes, you Totally have a valid point! I was just assuming and well you know where that goes.

And ....omg thank you for mentioning these other cases as examples! I had never heard of them!

 

[Melt71]

Namus offers no updated advice on the potential age of the remains with the PMI for all ranging across 100 years "1888 - 1987".

 

[MadMcGoo]

This is intriguing. I wonder if DNA is available. Would be interesting to know the story of these bones.

 

[Susikatze]

You do have a point, but if conditions are optimal (and I guess there is a lot of ventilation and dry air in a ceiling), the mummification is possible. And those stay for a verrrry long time.

If there’s still skin and ligaments and toe nails attached they can’t be that old can they?

 

[Panhypopit]

Pardon my ignorance but how does one bury in a ceiling? Is it a drop ceiling? How to lift heavy bodies and hold them in place to get a ceiling around them?

How to keep the drop ceiling from not getting wet from a fresh body? Is it plaster? How does one lift and keep bodies in place while plaster dries? Won’t a body make a mess in the plaster? So were the bodies already dry when they were put in the ceiling?

Maybe buried from the floor above? Still, I just can’t twist my head around the mechanics of this one...

This is a weird case...