I remember reading somewhere that when WW disappeared, LE guessed that the place she would be found would be Webster. If true, that means that a possible pattern was apparent to LE already before all the details of the second murder was known to them. It is possible that the perp(s) or different perps chose victims with double initials by change and then moved them to locations with the same initial to fit the pattern when he/they discovered that the victim fitted this pattern.
NY NY - The Alphabet Killings, Rochester
- Thread starter Steely Dan
- Start date
I remember reading somewhere that when WW disappeared, LE guessed that the place she would be found would be Webster. If true, that means that a possible pattern was apparent to LE already before all the details of the second murder was known to them. It is possible that the perp(s) or different perps chose victims with double initials by change and then moved them to locations with the same initial to fit the pattern when he/they discovered that the victim fitted this pattern.
Good thinking. Could it possibly be the case that the victims, because of some oftheir similarities easier fell prey to the particular MO used by perp(s)?
tilomagnet
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I just finished reading Nightmare in Rochester by Benson/Tubman, which I found to be a very well written and detailed book on this case. Would definately recommend it. A couple thoughts....
- Apparently the only useable DNA to have survived comes from the WW case, which is why there is still a lot of debate whether all 3 cases are actually related
- Over the years many seem to tentatively link the WW & MM cases while the CC case is the one that is often considered separate (with her uncle a prime suspect)
- The DNA recovered from the WW does unfortunately not match known suspects
- Police investigation has been considered solid with an extensive investigation that hasn't zeroed in on a specific theory, no coverups suspected ala OCCK
- One witness of the CC incident on the freeway when she briefly got away from the abductor(s) described a man and a woman (!) in or near the car, with the woman apparently dragging CC back into the car;
- There is a witness for the MM abduction, a girl who got a good look at the abductor when he sped by her with MM in the car; The author made her look at various suspects and apparently there is a strong resemblance to a known rapist who would commit similar abductions later on; His DNA was not a match to the WW DNA;
- The MM abductor was described as scruffy with a run down car, kinda like a "textbook" molester;
- Apparently the only useable DNA to have survived comes from the WW case, which is why there is still a lot of debate whether all 3 cases are actually related
- Over the years many seem to tentatively link the WW & MM cases while the CC case is the one that is often considered separate (with her uncle a prime suspect)
- The DNA recovered from the WW does unfortunately not match known suspects
- Police investigation has been considered solid with an extensive investigation that hasn't zeroed in on a specific theory, no coverups suspected ala OCCK
- One witness of the CC incident on the freeway when she briefly got away from the abductor(s) described a man and a woman (!) in or near the car, with the woman apparently dragging CC back into the car;
- There is a witness for the MM abduction, a girl who got a good look at the abductor when he sped by her with MM in the car; The author made her look at various suspects and apparently there is a strong resemblance to a known rapist who would commit similar abductions later on; His DNA was not a match to the WW DNA;
- The MM abductor was described as scruffy with a run down car, kinda like a "textbook" molester;
marysleuths04
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I also heard about this. It seems strange that they let him go on a polygraph, since polygraphs just measure your heart rate and they can't ACTUALLY tell if you're lying. Idf the person was very calm, cool, and collected they could lie and still pass the test. And it's obvious that the Alphabet Murderer had absolutely no conscience and likely no remorse about what he did to the girls. This would make it easy to pass a polygraph if you were lying. I would also like to know more about this suspect. Because I don't know how you can clear someone who was seen hiding a little girl behind his back and trying to cover a license plate.
tilomagnet
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Many many suspects were "cleared" back in those days via polygraphs....they were basically the DNA of the 70ies....regarded as definitive. Often LE would completely abandon investigation of suspects if they passed the polygraph. The OCCK case is a notorious example.
Detective1
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Marysleuths04
I believe I found Licence Plate man
If you will inbox me
I will tell you who.
tilomagnet
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Bump for this fascinating case. Has the above lead been fully investigated and that suspect properly cleared via DNA (as opposed to polygraph)? I mean they did dig up that firefighter Termini guy in the 2000s and he wasn't a match, so they are obviously willing to take costly measures to check those old notorious suspects. Or are they even the same guy?
Hoopsticks
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Had anyone heard whether or not Richard William Davis has been looked into heavily for these?
Oct 29 2022
canoe.com
'It’s believed the killer struck for the first time on Nov. 16, 1971.'
The victim’s name was Carmen Colón. She was 10 years old and had run an errand for her grandmother to a local pharmacy in her Rochester, NY neighbourhood. It was 4:20 p.m.
The druggist would later say her grandmother’s prescription was not ready. Minutes later, she was spotted entering a car parked near the pharmacy. When she didn’t return home, her family called the cops around 7:50 p.m.
Detectives learned that about an hour after she left the pharmacy, the little girl was spotted running — naked from the waist down — away from a reversing Ford Pinto hatchback on the I-4
“(If) I could die knowing who killed my Carmencita, I could die more peacefully than I have lived.''
Police composite of the suspected Alphabet Killer. NY STATE POLICE
''All three victims shared the trait that their given name started with the same letter as their surname. And the dumping grounds also matched the first letter in all three cases.
The children had other similarities. All three went to Catholic schools, were not doing well at school and were considered loners.
And just as suddenly as the murders began, they stopped.''
''There is, however, one highly compelling suspect: Kenneth Bianchi, aka the Hillside Strangler, who was born and raised in Rochester.''
'Criminologist and author Christopher Berry-Dee told The UK Sun he believes Bianchi is the elusive AlphabetCarmen Colón, Wanda Walkowicz and Michelle Maenza were all 11, Catholic and sexually assaulted and murdered. NY STATE POLICE
“Without doubt, he was involved in the case,” Berry-Dee told the newspaper, adding cops looked at the handsome serial killer early in the investigation.''
''Bianchi, now 71, is serving life in prison in Washington state for the murders that terrorized Los Angeles in the 1970s and 80s. With his greasy cousin Angelo Buono Jr., the pair kidnapped, raped, tortured and murdered at least 10 women and girls ranging in age from 12 to 28.''
Hillside Strangler Kenneth Bianchi is a prime suspect in the Alphabet Murders case. BELLINGHAM POLICE
Or was the killer someone else? Another police composite. NY STATE POLICE
CRIME HUNTER: Is Hillside Strangler responsible for Rochester's Alphabet Murders?
It's believed the killer struck for the first time on Nov. 16, 1971.
The victim’s name was Carmen Colón. She was 10 years old and had run an errand for her grandmother to a local pharmacy in her Rochester, NY neighbourhood. It was 4:20 p.m.
The druggist would later say her grandmother’s prescription was not ready. Minutes later, she was spotted entering a car parked near the pharmacy. When she didn’t return home, her family called the cops around 7:50 p.m.
Detectives learned that about an hour after she left the pharmacy, the little girl was spotted running — naked from the waist down — away from a reversing Ford Pinto hatchback on the I-4
“(If) I could die knowing who killed my Carmencita, I could die more peacefully than I have lived.''
Police composite of the suspected Alphabet Killer. NY STATE POLICE
''All three victims shared the trait that their given name started with the same letter as their surname. And the dumping grounds also matched the first letter in all three cases.
The children had other similarities. All three went to Catholic schools, were not doing well at school and were considered loners.
And just as suddenly as the murders began, they stopped.''
''There is, however, one highly compelling suspect: Kenneth Bianchi, aka the Hillside Strangler, who was born and raised in Rochester.''
'Criminologist and author Christopher Berry-Dee told The UK Sun he believes Bianchi is the elusive AlphabetCarmen Colón, Wanda Walkowicz and Michelle Maenza were all 11, Catholic and sexually assaulted and murdered. NY STATE POLICE
“Without doubt, he was involved in the case,” Berry-Dee told the newspaper, adding cops looked at the handsome serial killer early in the investigation.''
''Bianchi, now 71, is serving life in prison in Washington state for the murders that terrorized Los Angeles in the 1970s and 80s. With his greasy cousin Angelo Buono Jr., the pair kidnapped, raped, tortured and murdered at least 10 women and girls ranging in age from 12 to 28.''
Or was the killer someone else? Another police composite. NY STATE POLICE
Hoopsticks
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Oct 29 2022
'It’s believed the killer struck for the first time on Nov. 16, 1971.'CRIME HUNTER: Is Hillside Strangler responsible for Rochester's Alphabet Murders?
It's believed the killer struck for the first time on Nov. 16, 1971.
The victim’s name was Carmen Colón. She was 10 years old and had run an errand for her grandmother to a local pharmacy in her Rochester, NY neighbourhood. It was 4:20 p.m.
The druggist would later say her grandmother’s prescription was not ready. Minutes later, she was spotted entering a car parked near the pharmacy. When she didn’t return home, her family called the cops around 7:50 p.m.
Detectives learned that about an hour after she left the pharmacy, the little girl was spotted running — naked from the waist down — away from a reversing Ford Pinto hatchback on the I-4
“(If) I could die knowing who killed my Carmencita, I could die more peacefully than I have lived.''
View attachment 376670
View attachment 376671
Police composite of the suspected Alphabet Killer. NY STATE POLICE
''All three victims shared the trait that their given name started with the same letter as their surname. And the dumping grounds also matched the first letter in all three cases.
The children had other similarities. All three went to Catholic schools, were not doing well at school and were considered loners.
And just as suddenly as the murders began, they stopped.''
''There is, however, one highly compelling suspect: Kenneth Bianchi, aka the Hillside Strangler, who was born and raised in Rochester.''
'Criminologist and author Christopher Berry-Dee told The UK Sun he believes Bianchi is the elusive AlphabetCarmen Colón, Wanda Walkowicz and Michelle Maenza were all 11, Catholic and sexually assaulted and murdered. NY STATE POLICE
“Without doubt, he was involved in the case,” Berry-Dee told the newspaper, adding cops looked at the handsome serial killer early in the investigation.''
''Bianchi, now 71, is serving life in prison in Washington state for the murders that terrorized Los Angeles in the 1970s and 80s. With his greasy cousin Angelo Buono Jr., the pair kidnapped, raped, tortured and murdered at least 10 women and girls ranging in age from 12 to 28.''
Hillside Strangler Kenneth Bianchi is a prime suspect in the Alphabet Murders case. BELLINGHAM POLICE
View attachment 376672
Or was the killer someone else? Another police composite. NY STATE POLICE
Again, I really gotta say that at the time, known child murderer Richard William Davis was living in Bath, NY and regularly visited in-laws in Rochester. He definitely resembles these sketches. I don't know if The Murder Squad episodes exist anywhere online anymore, but they did an episode on him that touched on this possibility,
ziggystarshay
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I was recently speaking with a man, Tim, who knew Carol Ingham (unsolved murder from 1976), asking him about the last night him and his girlfriend were with her on New Year's, etc. And after he gave me his recollection, he mentioned that he actually has a first hand account of Wanda Walkowicz from the day she was abducted, if I wanted to hear about that. Having followed the Alphabet/Double Initial Killings for years, I of course said yes, please share.
Here's Tim's story: At the time of Wanda's kidnapping, he was home and AWOL from his NC military base, and was living on Evergreen St. He remembers getting off the landline, then walking up Conkey Ave to go visit his pregnant girlfriend's house. As he was walking up Conkey, he recalls seeing a light green car, a 1963 Biscayne. He said he made eye contact with the driver and got a bad vibe from him. He described him looking Frank Zappa-esque, with longer hair, and a fumanchu mustache. Said he kind of looked like he could be a cop - and since he was AWOL at the time, he thought maybe someone was looking for him. He was at the corner of Ave A and Conkey, and at this corner was a bar with a big picture window facing the street. He said he looked into the bar, which he frequented, and made a general wave to whomever was inside, to hopefully detract the guy in the Biscayne from making contact with him. Again, he said, he thought someone was looking for him from the military. Inside the bar, he recognized a guy he knew and his buddies, and also Wanda's mother. He said he knew Wanda's mother from the bar. (I'm just relaying his story, I know it doesn't match what was later reported, but I found many of his details interesting). Directly across the street was the Hillside Deli, where Wanda, at the exact same time, was heading inside with the list from her mother for a few items. Tim did not know Wanda, and was unaware of simultaneous event happening behind him. Tim continued on to his girlfriend's house, and later returned to his own, the same way he came, walking down Conkey. Once he got home, he received a call from Bill, a barkeep/staff from the bar he waved into earlier. He told Tim that the cops were looking for him and where was Wanda. He said, Who is Wanda?? Bill proceeded to tell him we saw you wave and walk by, and also saw Wanda across the street at the same time. And that she never returned home with the groceries. Tim returned to his military base in NC the next day, and the FBI came down to speak with him regarding all of this.
I asked him further about the car he saw - how was he so sure, does he 'know cars', etc. He said not only does he 'know cars', but his dad owned the exact same vehicle at the time just in light blue. What doesn't exactly align is the detail about Wanda's mother being inside the bar when Tim walked by. It's alleged that the mother was the one who sent Wanda to the store while she stayed home with the other two younger siblings. However, news articles have inconsistent reportings about what Wanda purchased, so the discrepancies raise an eyebrow. One article reported 'Wanda bought $8.52 worth of groceries, including tuna fish, milk, cupcakes and cat food' (09). But in another it states Bill Van Orden at the deli said ‘..filled with dog and cat food, tuna fish, two quarts of milk, bread, cupcakes, soup and Pampers.’ (73) Wanda charged $6.76 to the account.
Also noteworthy is the mention of cat hair being on all of the girls' bodies. Articles consistently claim that none of the girls owned cats. Fine. But then why would Wanda be purchasing cat food? So it's hard to know what to believe in the reporting. So with that, isn't it feasible to believe that Wanda's mom WAS in the bar when Tim waved in and claimed to have seen her, and either they were with another adult or just alone? Very common for the time. Especially for a quick errand. Not that I'm implying that 'means' anything about Wanda's mom, just something to think on, based on Tim's account.
I haven't read anywhere that a light green colored vehicle was spotted or suspicious in the area, just that possibly a Dodge Dart was of note and a light brown car. But everyone's interpretations of colors can vary..
Thoughts?
Here's Tim's story: At the time of Wanda's kidnapping, he was home and AWOL from his NC military base, and was living on Evergreen St. He remembers getting off the landline, then walking up Conkey Ave to go visit his pregnant girlfriend's house. As he was walking up Conkey, he recalls seeing a light green car, a 1963 Biscayne. He said he made eye contact with the driver and got a bad vibe from him. He described him looking Frank Zappa-esque, with longer hair, and a fumanchu mustache. Said he kind of looked like he could be a cop - and since he was AWOL at the time, he thought maybe someone was looking for him. He was at the corner of Ave A and Conkey, and at this corner was a bar with a big picture window facing the street. He said he looked into the bar, which he frequented, and made a general wave to whomever was inside, to hopefully detract the guy in the Biscayne from making contact with him. Again, he said, he thought someone was looking for him from the military. Inside the bar, he recognized a guy he knew and his buddies, and also Wanda's mother. He said he knew Wanda's mother from the bar. (I'm just relaying his story, I know it doesn't match what was later reported, but I found many of his details interesting). Directly across the street was the Hillside Deli, where Wanda, at the exact same time, was heading inside with the list from her mother for a few items. Tim did not know Wanda, and was unaware of simultaneous event happening behind him. Tim continued on to his girlfriend's house, and later returned to his own, the same way he came, walking down Conkey. Once he got home, he received a call from Bill, a barkeep/staff from the bar he waved into earlier. He told Tim that the cops were looking for him and where was Wanda. He said, Who is Wanda?? Bill proceeded to tell him we saw you wave and walk by, and also saw Wanda across the street at the same time. And that she never returned home with the groceries. Tim returned to his military base in NC the next day, and the FBI came down to speak with him regarding all of this.
I asked him further about the car he saw - how was he so sure, does he 'know cars', etc. He said not only does he 'know cars', but his dad owned the exact same vehicle at the time just in light blue. What doesn't exactly align is the detail about Wanda's mother being inside the bar when Tim walked by. It's alleged that the mother was the one who sent Wanda to the store while she stayed home with the other two younger siblings. However, news articles have inconsistent reportings about what Wanda purchased, so the discrepancies raise an eyebrow. One article reported 'Wanda bought $8.52 worth of groceries, including tuna fish, milk, cupcakes and cat food' (09). But in another it states Bill Van Orden at the deli said ‘..filled with dog and cat food, tuna fish, two quarts of milk, bread, cupcakes, soup and Pampers.’ (73) Wanda charged $6.76 to the account.
Also noteworthy is the mention of cat hair being on all of the girls' bodies. Articles consistently claim that none of the girls owned cats. Fine. But then why would Wanda be purchasing cat food? So it's hard to know what to believe in the reporting. So with that, isn't it feasible to believe that Wanda's mom WAS in the bar when Tim waved in and claimed to have seen her, and either they were with another adult or just alone? Very common for the time. Especially for a quick errand. Not that I'm implying that 'means' anything about Wanda's mom, just something to think on, based on Tim's account.
I haven't read anywhere that a light green colored vehicle was spotted or suspicious in the area, just that possibly a Dodge Dart was of note and a light brown car. But everyone's interpretations of colors can vary..
Thoughts?
Melquiades
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In the annals of crime and serial killers, this is a particularly weird case because it's seemingly so obvious that all the victims are connected yet also seemingly so obvious that the first victim was killed by someone who couldn't possibly have killed the other two. It also seems impossible that the double-initials (actually triple initials when you factor in the towns where the bodies were discovered) thing could just be chance, but how on earth would someone actually be able to make that happen? And then on top of that, you have the whole Naso thing where you have a copycat killer decades later ... who just happened to be in Rochester at the time of the original killings, yet doesn't appear to be the killer.
It's actually an even more confounding/fascinating plot than the Agatha Christie novel the killings appear to be based on.
Good news is that the killer of the 2nd victim will surely be identified in the next year or two via familial DNA testing and investigators at that point will have more to run with in terms of connecting/not connecting it to the other two victims.
The 2nd and 3rd killings are virtually identical and surely must be the same culprit.
It's actually an even more confounding/fascinating plot than the Agatha Christie novel the killings appear to be based on.
Good news is that the killer of the 2nd victim will surely be identified in the next year or two via familial DNA testing and investigators at that point will have more to run with in terms of connecting/not connecting it to the other two victims.
The 2nd and 3rd killings are virtually identical and surely must be the same culprit.
ziggystarshay
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I agree that this case will be solved via familial DNA. I'm also inclined to believe the 2nd and 3rd killings in 1973 (Wanda, then Michelle) are the two that are linked, with Carmen's 1971 killing an outlier.
To your point 'it seems impossible that the double initials thing could just be chance'. I've been curious to know how common double initial names were back then. So I did a simple survey of a few city schools' senior classes from '77, '78, '79 (which would have been close to the girls' graduating class/around their same age) and '71. I counted all the females who had double initial names and compared it to the overall female count of that class. 53 of the total 728 combined girls had double initial names, which is 7.2%. In statistical analysis, that is considered 'statistically significant'. Stats was never my strong suit in school, so correct me if I'm wrong! Then it's my understanding this is just merely coincidental (albeit a crazy coincidence, absolutely!) the girls had double initial names due to the common-ness of them (statistically speaking), and they were not selected because of their names. I don't think the killer was organized enough to have a mastermind plan like that, and he was just lucky.
Melquiades
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The odds of randomly having a single double-initial victim are 7%. But the odds of three separate random victims each having double initials is 0.03% (three hundredths of one percent) which is minuscule. And that’s before also factoring in that all 3 victims were found in a town with that initial as well. Plus it’s also the exact plot of a well-known book.
And for the record, I don’t disagree with you - I don’t know how you plan random stranger abductions with this twist and I keep circling back to ‘surely it must be chance’. But then the math kind of says otherwise.
The math changes, though, if the SK actually had 5 or 6 victims but those have been discounted/ignored because the initials don’t line up. I don’t know if there are any other similar unsolved child abductions in the area/time but I’d definitely be curious.
ziggystarshay
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No I totally hear you, and yes it seemingly mirrors the plot of the Christie novel. I, again, lean towards Carmen being an outlier, and that her uncle who later died by suicide could have been involved with her murder.
Carmen's abduction and murder happened on the west side of the city, whereas Wanda and Michelle's were on the east side and their bodies found east. Carmen was found west, in Riga. I don't know when they later added Churchville to the news articles and reporting, which is the village in Riga. Was it added to make the case of the double initials more compelling with the town name the same letter too? It's not incorrect, it's just more specific than the town name. Would one actually know the exact village lines before it becomes the town? To make sure she was being placed in Churchville? I grew up in the town of Perinton, but everyone refers to all of it as Fairport, which is actually only the village within Perinton. I have no idea what the perimeter lines of the village are and when it turns to town!
Anyway, if Carmen WAS an outlier, and we are talking about just Michelle and Wanda, I think it's feasible (again, crazy! I know!) to believe it was just chance their names and towns happened to match. I'm wondering where the killer of Wanda and Michelle lived, though. Wanda's body was found near the bottom of an embankment at a rest area on rt 104 right after the last entrance to 104, Bay Rd. The rest area is on the west side of 104, meaning the killer was coming BACK to the city when he discarded Wanda's body. I just find that interesting. And where Michelle's body was found, off Eddy Rd @ rt 350 in Macedon, rt 350 runs into 104 for the most direct route back to the city, versus taking side/back roads. I just think there's something there..
I don't know about other abductions or attempted abductions at that time either, I wonder!
ziggystarshay
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In November of 2007, James Pressler was arrested in FL after DNA evidence connected him to the rape and strangulation murder of 7 year old Michelle McMurray in April of 1976. Michelle’s killer had come into her apartment on Jay St (~2 miles from Wanda’s kidnapping), and raped and strangled her. He then removed Michelle from her residence and leaving her outside the apartment complex she lived in with her mother.
Back then, her double initials did raise the eyebrows of investigators, but they claimed her age and ‘other distinct differences’ did not fit the bill for being a victim of same killer. Hmm. However, I haven’t been able to find anywhere that conclusively states that Pressler’s DNA has been compared to the physical evidence/DNA retrieved from the other girls. I’m SURE it was compared though, right? And there was just never any reporting on it?
Pressler died of a heart attack in prison before he was extradited back to NY to face the charges for Michelle's death.
Back then, her double initials did raise the eyebrows of investigators, but they claimed her age and ‘other distinct differences’ did not fit the bill for being a victim of same killer. Hmm. However, I haven’t been able to find anywhere that conclusively states that Pressler’s DNA has been compared to the physical evidence/DNA retrieved from the other girls. I’m SURE it was compared though, right? And there was just never any reporting on it?
Pressler died of a heart attack in prison before he was extradited back to NY to face the charges for Michelle's death.
ziggystarshay
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As I sit here and read Benson's book 'Nightmare in Rochester' (finally arrived this afternoon) about the double initial murders, there is a chapter on Michelle McMurray. (Should have read the book before posting earlier today!) But Benson says 'by April 13 (of 1976) analysis of the semen found at the crime scene indicated that Michelle's killer was not the same as Wanda or Michelle Maenza'. At the time, the extent of DNA analysis consisted of secretor or non-secretor. I don't know how fallible that is/was, but I'm fairly certain it's a certainty. Thus, Michelle McMurray would also be an outlier for the other murders. *sigh*
Mom2babies
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ive been looking into this case for a while and interested to know if thats alright
ziggystarshay
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SERIAL KILLER: The Alphabet Murders (Part 1) | Crime Junkie Podcast
Dozens of commuters see a young girl fleeing a car on the side of the expressway in Rochester, NY, but no one pulls over to help.
crimejunkiepodcast.com
SERIAL KILLER: The Alphabet Murders (Part 2) | Crime Junkie Podcast
Dozens of commuters see a young girl fleeing a car on the side of the expressway in Rochester, NY, but no one pulls over to help.
crimejunkiepodcast.com
Crime Junkie podcast recently released this two part series on the Alphabet Murders. It's very thorough and well reported. While I didn't learn anything new, it was still helpful to hear everything laid out comprehensively with the timeline, eye witness accounts, etc. A good refresher if anyone is interested! They use Michael Benson's book 'Nightmare in Rochester' as their main source for facts, but they do also quote one of my posts from here (#74)! @Melquiades they quote your response, #75, as well! So THAT was super unexpected to hear our names on such a big platform. It was adding to their discussion during the episode on the debate of whether the girls were randomly chosen and happened to all have double initials, or were they intentionally sought because of their names.
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