Found Deceased OH - Harley Dilly, 14, walking to Port Clinton High School, 20 Dec 2019 #5

Discussion in 'Located Persons Discussion' started by JerseyGirl, Dec 23, 2019.

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  1. Hatfield

    Hatfield Well-Known Member

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    Re BBM
    We had lots of discussions on that but no confirmation from LE. Most feel he would have went down feet first but some wondered if head first because of the jacket getting outside into the room.

    IMO I think even with feet first he could pretty easily remove a "puffy jacket" and then squeeze it past his body to get it below him and out into that room. All he would have to do is do it little by little as he squeezed it past his body.

    Going down a chimney feet first can be done by pressing your back up against one wall and then pushing your feet against the opposite wall which pins you without falling further down. By also doing the same with the hands on opposite wall you can slowly maneuver down.

    Not sure if this diagram will come out right. Trying to show two walls and a person using that technique. The person head is the "O" and his body is the slashes "\".

    |..............|
    |O...........|
    |...\.........|
    |......\......|
    |.........\...|
    |............\|
    |..............|
    |..............|
    |..............|
    |..............|
    |..............|
     


  2. JaePim

    JaePim Stranger Than Fiction

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  3. shefner

    shefner Member Since 2008

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    I wonder if the coat and glasses would have been visible if looking inside the house through a window? Did anyone glance inside the windows to see if anything had been disturbed. As a real estate assistant, I can't tell you how many times, while waiting for keys or codes, I have looked into every window around the perimeter of the house just out of curiosity.
     
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  4. JaePim

    JaePim Stranger Than Fiction

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  5. Diehl

    Diehl Member

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    Given that Harley wasn’t visibly seen or captured on any other surveillance cameras after the first sighting shortly after 6am, it’s quite possible that he headed straight to the vacant house, scaled the antenna and headed to the chimney. If this is the case though, it would have been pitch black out at that time. Also, if it was light when he was on the roof, I imagine someone would have noticed him leading me to believe it was dark.

    If it was indeed still dark, he had no source of light and no phone with a flashlight to peer into the chimney with. I find it so hard to imagine he would enter the chimney when he couldn’t visibly see the bottom. I simply can’t wrap my head around that. It’s just so sad.
     
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  6. waterfalllady

    waterfalllady Well-Known Member

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    It's very possible he threw his glasses down to hear if it made it through and then decided he could try.
     
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  7. 12midnight

    12midnight Member

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    Dumb question I know, but is there anyway for someone to scale back up a chimney after going down it?
     
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  8. Hatfield

    Hatfield Well-Known Member

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    Its doable using a similar technique like these two strong women are using in link below but it does take strength and would be much more difficult going up than down. When going down, gravity helps a lot. When going up, gravity fights against you.

    ETA - In that small confined space of the chimney, going up would be very very difficult, if not impossible.

     
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2020
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  9. shefner

    shefner Member Since 2008

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    I took out a 9" x 13" baking dish and tried to imagine my very thin and lanky 11-year-old granddaughter going into the space. It is tough to imagine how its possible. But even giving the benefit of the doubt, I can could see no way that he started down the chimney, then had space to remove the puffy coat and push it past his body and shove it down underneath him with enough force to cause it to exit the flue and land on the floor outside the chimney hole. I have 10 grandchildren. They own those puffy coats and those things are like giant marshmallows. I can't understand how that coat got all the way through.

    If there was no fireplace, that means there was most likely a small hole in the wall where the fireplace would have originally been, correct? So if that hole was sealed up, the coat would have needed to be pushed with enough force to open that hole in the wall. Then the glasses would have been pushed through also. And yet Harley was only 1/3 of the way down the chimney when he became stuck. Some homeowners remove the old fireplaces and completely dry wall over the area, leaving no hole at all. If that's the case in this house, it seems even more unlikely the coat would find its way to the floor outside the one-time fireplace.

    Even if there was a small hole that was already opened, and I can't imagine why there would have been (we have been told there is no chimney access from within the home), then it still would take quite a feat to get that puffy marshmallow coat all the way down the flue and through such an opening.
     
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  10. nefes

    nefes Well-Known Member

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    That's their story and they're sticking to it
    Apparently

    MOO
     
  11. GailAnne

    GailAnne Active Member

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    The coat and glasses where found on the second floor of the house which would be too high up to see in the windows.
     
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  12. Diddian

    Diddian Well-Known Member

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    Cause of death (compression asphyxia) determined by autopsy was released in Hickman's short written release dated January 14, but identification and determination of manner of death (accident, suicide, or homicide) was at that time still dependent upon completion of LE investigation and toxicology from the autopsy.

    All releases from the Chief discussed "appearances" ("this appears to be an accident," "at this time, there does not appear to be foul play involved") and not conclusive determinations. It seems clear to me that LE has to process the evidence collected from the scene on Fulton Rd, integrate it with all other evidence, and complete their investigation to make a solid determination of inclusion or not of foul play, which could involve staging the appearance of an accident.

    It is notable to me that Hickman dropped the statement "family is fully cooperating and we have no reason to believe they were involved" from all his public communications. He also dropped the statement specifically identifying all LE agencies and Missing Person related organizations involved. Those two statements had previously been included in every single press conference and written release posted on the PC Police Dept Facebook page from Hickman since LE first learned of Harley's disappearance and throughout their search for him.

    Perhaps it is just an oversight on the Chief's part. Absent his saying so, the possibility remains that there may have been valid motivation to include both those public statements until Harley was located and recovered and then to exclude them upon recovery, when the child is no longer missing and presumed endangered and you now have critical evidence (which may or may not suggest or conclusively prove involvement) which you did not have before recovery.

    That motivation would also explain LE's need to closely control the inclusion of community members and organizations outside LE in the search for Harley, while LE conducted its own search based on leads and continued observation of the activity of family members. Those community members and outside organizations are not aware of everything that LE is aware of. They only know what they themselves have contributed to the investigation (their own tips or searches).

    Unfortunately, the cloud of suspicion won't fully lift from Harley's family or close associates until the formal announcement that LE has conclusively determined, based on full consideration of the evidence, that they were not involved. It's very sad, but until they are conclusively cleared and their child's body is released to them, family carries that burden along with their grief.

    Has anyone indicated when the final autopsy results might be expected? Are investigators from the FBI and OBCI still present in Port Clinton or have outside investigators all left town (perhaps indicating a conclusive determination may be coming soon)?

    I hope resolution comes soon for all involved.
     
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2020
  13. JaneEyre

    JaneEyre Well-Known Member

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    There never a fireplace. From what I understand from the owner, anyway.
     
  14. deugirtni

    deugirtni Well-Known Member

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    I was describing this situation and showing a video of the house and chimney, etc. to someone who is mechanically inclined and well versed in houses and their systems and older homes.. he calls BS on this story.. he thinks something is wrong with the details somewhere.

    He envisions that the boy would've had to first of all, (obviously) remove his coat first before he ever entered the chimney. Then, he has a difficult time believing the boy at 4'9" and just about 100lbs would have fit into the 9"x13" space, but even if he did, he pictures both arms being raised above his head (nobody would willingly enter a chimney head first, to land on their heads surely?).. then.. he supposedly is able to wiggle down this chimney to a point lower than this 8-9" flue opening, which apparently wasn't blocked off even though there was no fireplace, no need for it considering there was baseboard heating in the home, and the homeowners were doing renos.. lower than this opening, so that his raised arms could then push the coat and glasses out of the hole.. all even though it was so tight in there for the boy that it did not allow him enough room to expand and contract his chest to even *breathe*.

    He is left thinking that someone measured the chimney incorrectly, and/or that the boy was shoved down the chimney. It would be too difficult to get a body up there surely, whether by TV antenna or by ladder, and especially without even being seen, so if he was 'shoved' down the chimney, it would have been while he was alive. Hoping LE does a thorough job in forensically examining the floors and doors and windows of this house to ensure he wasn't inside the house at some point earlier than when he ended up inside the chimney. And also the soot patterns inside the chimney to confirm that it makes sense as far as where the boy was located in there, in relation to where his hands would've shoved the coat out. Considering police seemed to have picked up the coat and placed it somewhere else (on the door), it seems worrisome that they may have tampered with the scene before forensics could be done (imho). I guess that can't be helped if there were a bunch of footprints and handprints around, inside the home looking for him. Ugh.
     
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  15. skywalker20

    skywalker20 Well-Known Member

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    I agree! This is what we learn from Harley: 1. Report missing as soon as possible. 2. Hand your child a phone, the cheapest phone will do -- even if they don't have a contract, they can always dial 911. 3. Every house, shed, whatever in close proximity of the house the missing person lived needs to be searched closely, either by LE, volunteers, home owners, to rule out any accident.
     
  16. deugirtni

    deugirtni Well-Known Member

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    If he heard the glasses 'land' onto a surface, could he have thought they had landed inside a fireplace hearth, as opposed to a blockage between first and second floors, as was said to exist?
     
  17. JaneEyre

    JaneEyre Well-Known Member

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    I've never assumed he pushed them out with his hands. I'm guessing he did it with his feet.
     
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  18. JaneEyre

    JaneEyre Well-Known Member

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    My view is that if someone is going to shove a body in the chimney, they aren't going to leave glasses and a coat behind. This was an accident.
     
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2020
  19. deugirtni

    deugirtni Well-Known Member

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    Do you think he removed his coat before he entered, then somehow grasped his coat between his two feet while climbing presumably feet-first into the chimney?
     
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  20. JaneEyre

    JaneEyre Well-Known Member

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    I think he shoved the coat in first, with glasses possibly inside the pocket. Then I think he probably pushed it out the opening with his feet.
     
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