OH OH/PA - Kingsbury Run Murders, Cleveland OH/New Castle PA, 1930's

New Posts

Since McKees Rocks is about 4 miles NW of Pittsburg, I can pretty much see on that map that there's a direct route (or one through New Castle) from Youngstown to there. It almost looks like a pattern.

All the seriously suspected murders occurred in Cleveland and Pittsburg or along the corridor between them.
 
STANDREID said:
Since McKees Rocks is about 4 miles NW of Pittsburg, I can pretty much see on that map that there's a direct route (or one through New Castle) from Youngstown to there. It almost looks like a pattern.
Click to expand...

The key word is pattern, not just in location but in manner.

1935 and 1938 ( and 1920 and 1950 including Pittsburg and Youngstown, Ohio) An exposition dedicated to the Cleveland Torso Murders aka Mad Butcher in the Cleveland Police ... the torso in half; in many cases the cause of death was the decapitation itself.

Mad Butcher 1962-1964 Seven possibly more who were murdered by the Mad Butcher in Oak Hill during the 60's. "Mad Butcher of Fayette County". Five other men were reported missing in the area between July of 1962 and December of 1963. On December 7, 1963, a dismembered body was discovered in a clearing 6 miles south of Pineville, on State Route 16. The victim was a white male, who had been deceased for some time at the time of discovery. The body was badly dismembered, but not significantly decomposed. The victims arms, legs and head had been removed and the torso cut in half. The lower part of the torso was wrapped in canvas which was tied together with mine explosive wire.
 
CLUE: The boss knew that big, strong men were needed to handle the wood in the preservation process and was elated as XXXXXX told him about CCA, chromated copper arsenate and the experience he had while working near a farm where the children who went barefoot experienced reddened, thickened skin on the soles of the feet.

Victim #2 John Doe I September 23, 1935 Jackass Hill area of Kingsbury Run
Male body was never identified.
Emasculated and decapitated, head recovered.
The skin was treated with a chemical agent that caused it to become reddish and leathery.
Initial estimates were seven to ten days. It was later revised to three to four weeks.
August/September 1935

It was from a story. I tried to imagine why a man might want to preserve a body (it is documented as a preservative on the skin). I researched the kind of work a man might do during the depression, steel and lumber. Lumber gave me CCA, chromated copper arsenate created in India 1933 for preserving green wood. Cleveland was building projects and clearing 22 acres of green timber for the construction of those projects.
 
brogue said:
CLUE: The boss knew that big, strong men were needed to handle the wood in the preservation process and was elated as XXXXXX told him about CCA, chromated copper arsenate and the experience he had while working near a farm where the children who went barefoot experienced reddened, thickened skin on the soles of the feet.

Victim #2 John Doe I September 23, 1935 Jackass Hill area of Kingsbury Run
Male body was never identified.
Emasculated and decapitated, head recovered.
The skin was treated with a chemical agent that caused it to become reddish and leathery.
Initial estimates were seven to ten days. It was later revised to three to four weeks.
August/September 1935

It was from a story. I tried to imagine why a man might want to preserve a body (it is documented as a preservative on the skin). I researched the kind of work a man might do during the depression, steel and lumber. Lumber gave me CCA, chromated copper arsenate created in India 1933 for preserving green wood. Cleveland was building projects and clearing 22 acres of green timber for the construction of those projects.
Click to expand...

great post! I think your on to something with CCA. There was a bucket full of liquid that was not identified at the time. It was probably CCA do you remember which body this was near. CCA is also a carcinogen...I'd bet the butcher got cancer from dealing with the stuff
 
From the beginning, I saw that the substance was "a preservative". I knew that it had to come in large amounts because large amounts were found. In researching the events of the area at the time, the building of housing projects were very nearby and would bring in men on the rails, especially with experience, lumbermen. The CCA is termed a "salt". I saw that the analysis from the investigators named the substance a salt. That is when I knew it was most likely this chemical which was brought in from India where it was created in 1933. Chromated copper arsenate (CCA) is a wood preservative that has been used ... copper and arsenic (as Copper(II) arsenate) formulated as oxides or salts.

It seems that during the depression a man (especially a hunter) would not waste the skin. It would make many needed things. He was trying to preserve it because someone must have told him that the CCA was a preservative or that his experience told him that while working with wood (green wood). A doctor would know that the preservative would not preserve the body but a hunter would not. Also a huge man, an outdoors man, who was born and raised where hunting was a part of life from childhood would easily carry a buck over steep terrain for miles. It is how he survived. It would be second nature. He would also dissect the head to drain the body of blood because the head would not be used for anything viable, it would lessen the weight and decrease identification of the victim, plus the huge arteries of the neck and aorta would make the bleed out much faster and complete. So take a man who killed since childhood to survive, a man who became a master of decapitating large game, he would most likely have a pattern (even a signature) and the skills of what someone might think is surgical skill.

I am at an advantage regarding the evidence and what I know. It would be hard to see how it is connected otherwise.
 
brogue said:
From the beginning, I saw that the substance was "a preservative". I knew that it had to come in large amounts because large amounts were found. In researching the events of the area at the time, the building of housing projects were very nearby and would bring in men on the rails, especially with experience, lumbermen. The CCA is termed a "salt". I saw that the analysis from the investigators named the substance a salt. That is when I knew it was most likely this chemical which was brought in from India where it was created in 1933. Chromated copper arsenate (CCA) is a wood preservative that has been used ... copper and arsenic (as Copper(II) arsenate) formulated as oxides or salts.

It seems that during the depression a man (especially a hunter) would not waste the skin. It would make many needed things. He was trying to preserve it because someone must have told him that the CCA was a preservative or that his experience told him that while working with wood (green wood). A doctor would know that the preservative would not preserve the body but a hunter would not. Also a huge man, an outdoors man, who was born and raised where hunting was a part of life from childhood would easily carry a buck over steep terrain for miles. It is how he survived. It would be second nature. He would also dissect the head to drain the body of blood because the head would not be used for anything viable, it would lessen the weight and decrease identification of the victim, plus the huge arteries of the neck and aorta would make the bleed out much faster and complete. So take a man who killed since childhood to survive, a man who became a master of decapitating large game, he would most likely have a pattern (even a signature) and the skills of what someone might think is surgical skill.

I am at an advantage regarding the evidence and what I know. It would be hard to see how it is connected otherwise.
Click to expand...

Sounds like a pretty good profile to me! Why did he try to preserve the buddies in cca? What do you think about the sunbather? The hunter sounds like a real strong theory, I'd go back and look at the neighbors of the first women from around murder swamp decaped in her home....before kingsbury run and murder swamp...she was probably the first and it looks like someone who knew her and lived close by perhaps you can find someone who matches your description
 
I believe a hunter would use all parts, like skin for needed things. This was the depression and his experience would allow many uses for skin, just about anything a leather or deer skin could be used for. I think he tried to preserve the skin for future use. I am unsure about the sunbather. I do not know anything about that. What is that? I am also unsure if the first victim in 1921 is a part of his collection. I read some places that she was not. I am thinking it started in 1924 or 1925.

Shoes:
human-skin-shoes.jpg

Coats:
0.img_assist_custom.jpg

Belts: (Ed Gein)
download (2).jpg

Bags:
images (1).jpg

I have not read much about the Swamp Murders but what I have read, I believe he is the same killer. I will have to find more information on the 1921 female.
 
Practical purposes for skulls and bones.
http://sciencesoup.tumblr.com/post/33391691662/tibetan-skulls-human-bones-are-regularly-used-in

I would imagine that during the depression people scavenged for anything usable. I am unsure why the skulls of most were never found. They were significant in some way to the killer. I imagine they are all together someplace buried on a mountain in a little flat place, and it is there where something grows vibrant and well fertilized...like garlic, as tall as a man.
 
Interesting bro...often the heads where found buried at the foot of the body. I am of the opinion that Cleveland, New Castle/Murder Swamp, Youngstown and Mckee are all clearly the work of the same serial killer. here is an article about a man who shares your opinion that the mad butcher was a hunter and he tracked down a suspect. Unfortunately he doesnt name the man but he believes the killer was a railroad worker from New Castle who enlisted in WW2 (nazi carving): http://www.vindy.com/news/2001/apr/22/austintown-resident-thinks-hes-solved-decades-old/

Now the sunbather.....a very interesting clue....spring 1950 a man was seen sunbathing everyday behind a factory on East 22nd street in Cleveland. He would lay sunbathing for weeks i believe and was seen by the factory workers everyday who referred to him as "the sunbather". One day he stopped coming and shortly after the dismembered torso of Robert Roberston was found under the pile of scrap metal the sunbather always laid on. Now the way the bodies where "charred" with the chemical to give the skin the appearance of "bacon rind"...i wonder if the Mad Butcher had some kind of fetish for "burned skin". When you see a picture of one of the bodies which had the chemical it like a supertan to the extreme. It's possible the CCA was used as a preservative...but for what purpose. The body parts were usually accounted for so they werent used to make things with human skin as you suggested atleast in most cases. I wonder if the CCA was more for appearance than anything else and I wonder if they sunbather is some kind of clue as to why the victims skins where so charred with the stuff....
http://books.google.com/books?id=G8...v=onepage&q=cleveland torso sunbather&f=false

edit: interestingly enough...Mancini's suspect was B&O railroad worker, brakeman & Conductor, originally from West Virginia, worked 20 years on the railroad then joined the army in 1942 but died in a louisiana latrine fire in basic training. In the early Cleveland murders a railroad conductors lantern was left with the bodies..and then there are all the bodies inside boxcars, some dismembered inside abandoned boxcars. However...would a serial killer conductor really leave his lantern at the scene of the crime? Or dismembered and store bodies in boxcars where he worked? Merylo never tracked him down despite suspecting a railroad worker so its possible but I kind of doubt the killer was a railroad worker. He must have had a connection to the railroads..but I wonder what it is spefically what do you think? I doubt Mancini's new castle suspect is the killer because of the 1950 sunbather, but it's possible someone similar who was away in the army during the war.
 
I can't help but wonder if the mad butcher was captured in one of the crime scene photos that shows a crowd of hundreds gathered around to watch. I surely think the butcher would watch the gruesome discoveries unfold.
 
I have only seen a few of them. Do you know a link where there are many? I am looking for a very tall and large built man with black hair.
 
I don't think those PA murders were connected, at least not the early ones.


1- No, the murder in PA was not expert style, but quite sloppy.


3- Quite a few bodies in PA weren't.

4- Only 2-3 victims were found in the swamp.

5- The PA murders' head weren't buried.

6- Which one of PA murder?

7- I don't see this happen in the PA ones.

9- I don't remember these happened to the PA victims.
 
I think Kingsbury Run was the killer's start, his knife was sharp but clearly that he wasn't so experienced in murder at first. A few early victims were identified and heads recovered, then he learned to pick victims and further dismember the male body, also hide the heads. Later he just toss them into the river.
 
STANDREID said:
They were with little doubt killed in Youngstown during December of 1939. I think that pretty much eliminates Sweeney and it most definitely eliminates Dolezal.
Click to expand...

A few experts looked at these cases but said it was not committed by the Mad Butcher, and they were not dismembered with knife, but by chainsaw.
 
brogue said:
I believe a hunter would use all parts, like skin for needed things. This was the depression and his experience would allow many uses for skin, just about anything a leather or deer skin could be used for. I think he tried to preserve the skin for future use. I am unsure about the sunbather. I do not know anything about that. What is that? I am also unsure if the first victim in 1921 is a part of his collection. I read some places that she was not. I am thinking it started in 1924 or 1925.

Shoes:
View attachment 61435

Coats:
View attachment 61436

Belts: (Ed Gein)
View attachment 61437

Bags:
View attachment 61439

I have not read much about the Swamp Murders but what I have read, I believe he is the same killer. I will have to find more information on the 1921 female.
Click to expand...

She wasn't, her throat was cut, not beheaded.
 
After read the details of the PA murders in Badal's book, I don't think they were linked with the Cleveland killings.
 
Tempst said:
After read the details of the PA murders in Badal's book, I don't think they were linked with the Cleveland killings.
Click to expand...

I couldnt disagree with you more. Some of the PA murder victims even had charred the skin! Too me it's obvious they are the same killer, but everyone is entitled to their own opinion. For what it's worth Peter Merylo who was the true lead detective was positive they were connected and he's the one who did all the investigating. So i'd go with his view as the most likely accurate. What's so strange is that Merylo's brother in law was suspected, made a false confession and was killed!? wtf there's got to be more to that story! When your reading Badal all the photo credits of Merylo say courtesy of Dolezal because that was his wifes family. Real real strange, would make a great tv series with all the crazu aspects of this case.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

DNASolves

Who is Escambia County John Doe (1989)?

Members online

... and 207 more.
Total: 3,855 (members: 208, guests: 3,647)

Online statistics

Members online
208
Guests online
3,647
Total visitors
3,855
Totals may include hidden visitors.

Forum statistics

Threads
592,146
Messages
17,964,119
Members
228,702
Latest member
cevans
Back
Top