OH - Pike Co, 8 in Rhoden Family Murdered Over Custody Issue, 4 Members Wagner Family Arrested #69

[Ann99]

We may not get a witness list before the trial but we will know a lot of witnesses from the subpoenas.

07/21/2022	SUBPOENA ISSUED TO CHARLES CRAVEN GILLEY
07/21/2022	SUBPOENA ISSUED TO PATRICIA HOWARD

08/16/2022

SUBPOENAS ISSUED TO BRETT HATFIELD; SHAUN WATSON; LT ADAM BALL; DONALD STONE; LUKE RHODEN; TIM DICKERSON; JAMES MANLEY; APRIL MANLEY; DR. KESSLER, CORONER; EMMA MORGAN; CHIEF DEPUTY CORONER, KAREN LOOMAN, DO.O; BILLY MORGAN; BOBBY JO MANLEY; DR. CATHERINE FARINET; SA ED HUNTER; SA SHANE HANSHAW; SA GEORGE STALEY; SA TODD FORTNER; LT BRYAN WHITE; SAS JOSHUA DURST; KENNETH DICK, INV; SHERIFF TRACY EVANS Attorney: JUNK, PROSECUTING ATTORNEY, ROBERT

Mo
This list looks like mostly a list of people on scene at UHR after the murders were discovered and the investigation began.
Reader’s name should be there too. Unless they are trying to distance Reader from all.

 

[Ann99]

If we wonder how W’s got into the UHR houses we should also wonder how they exited and left the houses locked.
I think they had to have use of keys.

 

[Tiff23fr]

I have often wondered about the timing of the murders also, according to Canepa:

Canepa said she (Hanna) signed her death warrant by saying she would never sign, "they will have to kill me first."

And Canepa said that when Angela showed this Facebook messenger conversation to Jake they killed her only 4 months later.

I think the timing was simply based on when they were ready to do it. I mean once they decided to do it they started preparing and bought the murder kit items and then when they were ready they made sure Hanna had delivered her baby, not wanting to kill her while pregnant.

So they were ready to do it as soon as Hanna got home from the hospital and then set up the fake drug deal with Chris as well as spying on the Rhodens making sure they were home that night.

So I think it was, ok, let's vote on this, ok, we are going to do it, let's start getting ready then do it as soon as possible. As soon as possible was right after Hanna had her baby. They specifically picked the time right after Hanna had her baby because they were ready at that time to do it.

They saw the Facebook message, voted, planned, then did it as soon as they could. The soonest they could do it was after Hanna had her baby.

If Hanna had not been pregnant they probably would have done it sooner.

But we don't know for sure how much of Hanna's being pregnant with another man's baby influenced their vote to kill her. Had she never gotten pregnant would it have made a difference?

This was about her not signing any papers for Jake's daughter, it wasn't about the new baby, so I think they would have killed her anyway. Possibly sooner.

I agree in theory with your POV. I see a culmination of things from her leaving, not signing papers on the child shared by her and JW, new relationships, and a new infant. At its core, I feel a significant part of the underlying thinking may go back to HR was holding steadfast that JW, nor his family, owned her or her choices. She was not going to be a member of their dysfunctional family (to put it lightly). She was an independent spirit who was going to make her own decisions “They will have to kill me first”. In an evil fashion that is exactly what they did, and I look forward to seeing each and every one of them pay for what they have done.

 

[Covert Operative]

MO and Just wondering about the logic. What was the plan?

Killing Jake. Does that mean Billy killing Jake at the UHR scene? Leaving his body there. Or moving it?
Or G4 has to kill Bill to stop him from killing Jake.
It would be very difficult to move Billy’s body from the scene. He is big.
Wouldn't that, a body, or a missing Wagner, point to the Wagner family involvement in some way? Not a genius move.
So, G4 needs to explain how all of this could logically play out.
Makes no sense at al, regardless, if Billy would kill Jake or if G4 would have to kill Billy to stop Billy from killing Jake.

So, in this scenario if Billy kills Jake or if G4 kills Billy, and then they somehow cart the body away, wouldn’t there be some evidence left behind?
What would they do with a Wagner body?
What would the explanation for “disappearance“ be?

They could have continued their kill Jake, or kill Billy plan elsewhere if it was real. Maybe in Alaska.
Weren’t they afraid of each other afterwards?

Since we know the Wagners planned it all out so carefully, what was the plan for this possibility?
If there is a trial, and this is G4 defense strategy, we should hear all about it, and I can’t wait for the details.

They will have to bring it in if that is part of their defense. Since JW said it in his proffer it seems, I guess JW will have to explain that, since G4 will not take the stand more than likely.
I think that JW explanation may be that they (someone) thought that BW would not kill JW with G4 there and in that way was protecting him. Does not necessarily mean that G4 was going to shoot BW. BW could not then go back to good ole mommy dearest and try to explain that JW got killed at the scene by one of the victims beause G4 would know.
I beieve if it were true, that scenario would have meant he would leave JW's body there to make it look like he was the only one that committed those murders.

 

[Tiff23fr]

MO and Just wondering about the logic. What was the plan?

Killing Jake. Does that mean Billy killing Jake at the UHR scene? Leaving his body there. Or moving it?
Or G4 has to kill Bill to stop him from killing Jake.
It would be very difficult to move Billy’s body from the scene. He is big.
Wouldn't that, a body, or a missing Wagner, point to the Wagner family involvement in some way? Not a genius move.
So, G4 needs to explain how all of this could logically play out.
Makes no sense at al, regardless, if Billy would kill Jake or if G4 would have to kill Billy to stop Billy from killing Jake.

So, in this scenario if Billy kills Jake or if G4 kills Billy, and then they somehow cart the body away, wouldn’t there be some evidence left behind?
What would they do with a Wagner body?
What would the explanation for “disappearance“ be?

They could have continued their kill Jake, or kill Billy plan elsewhere if it was real. Maybe in Alaska.
Weren’t they afraid of each other afterwards?

Since we know the Wagners planned it all out so carefully, what was the plan for this possibility?
If there is a trial, and this is G4 defense strategy, we should hear all about it, and I can’t wait for the details.

Why do guardianship docs in the event of both Jake and Georges death if George was not to be present or in danger?

 

[Covert Operative]

If we wonder how W’s got into the UHR houses we should also wonder how they exited and left the houses locked.
I think they had to have use of keys.

On some doors they will lock if you lock them from the inside and then go out and close them, not deadbolts though. Not sure if the door was locked by a regular lock or a deadbolt lock.
I can lock my regular lock on my backdoor from the inside and then go out and it will lock but I have to use the key for my deadbolt. It looked like from pictures they had both kinds on their door. I do think they may have had keys to get in and possibly to lock on the way out if all their locks were the kind that needed a key.

 

[Covert Operative]

Why do guardianship docs in the event of both Jake and Georges death if George was not to be present or in danger?

That would be why they were done to my thinking but they were back dated to look like they were done months before. They did not clean up after themselves very well to hide that they were done recently before the murders.
I think to say G4 had no intent, defense would have to say that G4 changed his mind at some point before the murders and had no intent of killing anyone, even if he had gone along with their plan up to whatever point. JW also said that G4 tried to talk them out of the murders, so I feel like he is trying to throw him some help with what he is saying, maybe thinking in his mind it was going to help G4.

 

[Ann99]

That would be why they were done to my thinking but they were back dated to look like they were done months before. They did not clean up after themselves very well to hide that they were done recently before the murders.
I think to say G4 had no intent, defense would have to say that G4 changed his mind at some point before the murders and had no intent of killing anyone, even if he had gone along with their plan up to whatever point. JW also said that G4 tried to talk them out of the murders, so I feel like he is trying to throw him some help with what he is saying, maybe thinking in his mind it was going to help G4.

Just a random thought with no real answer.
If G4 tried to talk them out of the murders and had various serious concerns about Jakes safety, who could G4 turn to for help. Its a serious situation. I would think powerful Grandma could have talked some sense into them.
G 4 story makes no sense. If he were so very scared, why not enlist Grandma’s help in stopping it all.

 

[Ann99]

Why do guardianship docs in the event of both Jake and Georges death if George was not to be present or in danger?

Good point.

 

[Covert Operative]

I agree in theory with your POV. I see a culmination of things from her leaving, not signing papers on the child shared by her and JW, new relationships, and a new infant. At its core, I feel a significant part of the underlying thinking may go back to HR was holding steadfast that JW, nor his family, owned her or her choices. She was not going to be a member of their dysfunctional family (to put it lightly). She was an independent spirit who was going to make her own decisions “They will have to kill me first”. In an evil fashion that is exactly what they did, and I look forward to seeing each and every one of them pay for what they have done.

I also think it was a combination of a lot of things.
I think the HR had support from her family not to cave in to their demands which made it that much more difficult for them to control her and pissed them off even more at the others they killed.

 

[Covert Operative]

Just a random thought with no real answer.
If G4 tried to talk them out of the murders and had various serious concerns about Jakes safety, who could G4 turn to for help. Its a serious situation. I would think powerful Grandma could have talked some sense into them.
G 4 story makes no sense. If he were so very scared, why not enlist Grandma’s help in stopping it all.

"If" G4 tried to talk them out of it as JW said. It's JW's story right now I believe and I am sure they jumped on that wagon after he said those things.
If they are going to say they were fearful of BW and it seems they may say that in some regard, I assume they will also say that G4 was fearful to tell on BW to anyone and what may happen to him if he did?

 

[Dudly]

MO and Just wondering about the logic. What was the plan?

Killing Jake. Does that mean Billy killing Jake at the UHR scene? Leaving his body there. Or moving it?
Or G4 has to kill Bill to stop him from killing Jake.
It would be very difficult to move Billy’s body from the scene. He is big.
Wouldn't that, a body, or a missing Wagner, point to the Wagner family involvement in some way? Not a genius move.
So, G4 needs to explain how all of this could logically play out.
Makes no sense at al, regardless, if Billy would kill Jake or if G4 would have to kill Billy to stop Billy from killing Jake.

So, in this scenario if Billy kills Jake or if G4 kills Billy, and then they somehow cart the body away, wouldn’t there be some evidence left behind?
What would they do with a Wagner body?
What would the explanation for “disappearance“ be?

They could have continued their kill Jake, or kill Billy plan elsewhere if it was real. Maybe in Alaska.
Weren’t they afraid of each other afterwards?

Since we know the Wagners planned it all out so carefully, what was the plan for this possibility?
If there is a trial, and this is G4 defense strategy, we should hear all about it, and I can’t wait for the details.

My thoughts on this is that GWIII would frame JW in a murder/suicide situation and AW would gain a daughter with JW out of the picture.

 

[Berrybell]

I also think it was a combination of a lot of things.
I think the HR had support from her family not to cave in to their demands which made it that much more difficult for them to control her and pissed them off even more at the others they killed.

I too think the large family support of parents, siblings, HG, aunts, uncles and cousins that HR had to help her with SW, financial and emotional support angered JW and AW. JW had a very small amount of family members to stand beside him, and I would imagine he was also jealously in that regard too.

 

[Fat Old Man]

I can't wait to see the defenses witness list.

1. ?

Would G4 get a jury more to his liking in Pike County or another county?

 

[Chingaling]

I'll be very surprised if they don't get the DP anyway, there's no way they are going to be able to keep all thier lies in the proffer's straight with AC questioning.

 

[Covert Operative]

I can't wait to see the defenses witness list.

1. ?

Would G4 get a jury more to his liking in Pike County or another county?

There were some names on some discovery he filed, but very few. He may have his subpoenas sealed if that is an option. When do you think they will release the witness list?
I believe the defense thought he would get a jury more to his liking in another county, not sure what they think now since they have been questioning.

 

[Niner]

Don't recall if this was posted or not - the jury questionnaire.

Adobe Acrobat

acrobat.adobe.com

 

[Cool Cats]

I'll be very surprised if they don't get the DP anyway, there's no way they are going to be able to keep all thier lies in the proffer's straight with AC questioning.

George Wagner IV appears in court for …

The defense for Wagner IV argued that the court should suppress the testimony of his brother, Jake Wagner, and his mother, Angela Wagner.

The argument to suppress their testimony, specifically Jake’s, was built on the 6th Amendment, Wagner IV’s lawyers explained.

According to his defense, a good cross-examination of Jake by their side could make him change his story. The defense said if they did a good job with the cross exam, it would hinder their ability to represent their client, thus going against the 6th Amendment, the defense said.

The judge, after hearing the defense’s side and the prosecution’s counter, dismissed the motion. The judge’s ruling on Tuesday now paves the way for both Jake and Angela to take the stand.

ME:

So Canepa will keep Jake and Angela on point with their proffers but it could be the defense that gets them off their proffers. But then the defense apparently thinks if it does that then the prosecution won't want to drop the DP.

If the defense makes it look like Jake and Angela lied then the prosecution could say they weren't honest etc...

But I don't think this will happen because I think the prosecution would then "rehabilitate" Jake and Angela's apparent lies with their own questioning when the defense is done.

If this makes sense.

Having the DP a part of this really complicates it.

 

[Ann99]

I'll be very surprised if they don't get the DP anyway, there's no way they are going to be able to keep all thier lies in the proffer's straight with AC questioning.

You may be right.
DP for all would be an acceptable Verdict.

 

[Cool Cats]

I think FR's son let them in there. He knew JW and was on the couch in the living room. JW could have called out to him and asked him to unlock the door. Dana's house, I don't know.

JMO

Too risky. He would have identified Jake. Although Jake was masked, a kid letting him in and following him around while he commits murder wouldn't work. Some how Jake by-passed the sleeping kid I believe.

I also think Jake used to live in that trailer part time with HR and would have had the key.