OH Pike County: 8 in Rhoden Family Murdered Over Custody Issue 4 Members Wagner Family Arrested#42

[Puzzles8]

I was looking for the April 15, 2018 trailer search you mention but only came up with this August 17, 2018 search -----I AM LOOKING UP 2018 SEARCHES------

By Jennifer Baker | August 17, 2018 at 8:21 PM EST - Updated November 13 at 2:16 PM
PIKE COUNTY, OH (FOX19) - Two properties were searched this week in connection with the Rhoden family massacre, one in Pike County and another in Scioto County, FOX19 NOW has learned.

The searches took place over several hours Thursday afternoon and evening under heavy law enforcement presence.

Agents with Ohio's Bureau of Criminal Investigation and deputies from Pike and Scioto counties were involved.

A SWAT team also was seen driving down U.S. 23 in Pike County.

The public spotted all the police activity and social media speculation quickly circulated that investigators finally had a break in what is the state's largest-ever homicide investigation.

But authorities said Thursday and again Friday no arrests were made and the investigation continues.

Do you have a link or name of a media outlet that mentions the
April 15, 2018 trailer search? THANKX.

I had a medical procedure this morning with anesthesia. They warned me not to operate heavy machinery or drive a car, but they didn't say anything about posting to Websleuths!!!!
I would swear I saw this somewhere, but it might have also been my scribbled notes and/or transposed numbers (and lingering affects of anesthesia)! I looked back through the thread and went back to MSM articles and I just can't find it. So, until I can source it, consider it a rumor.

 

[Deleted member 237253]

We assume ammonia may have been used at the crime scenes. What if they were used on those bulletproof vests instead?

 

[Cool Cats]

I had a medical procedure this morning with anesthesia. They warned me not to operate heavy machinery or drive a car, but they didn't say anything about posting to Websleuths!!!!
I would swear I saw this somewhere, but it might have also been my scribbled notes and/or transposed numbers (and lingering affects of anesthesia)! I looked back through the thread and went back to MSM articles and I just can't find it. So, until I can source it, consider it a rumor.

Thankx! Now I won't go crazy looking for it lol...!
hope your well.

 

[Betty P]

Not trying to discredit nor argue with this scenario. In the movie the brothers would have their victims on their knees while reciting that stupid prayer. Each brother holding their gun to the back of the victims heads so that each shot would leave an exit wound through each eye.

If most of the R victims were killed in their sleep how would the W4 be able to pull these kinds of shots off? Again not trying to discredit this theory just trying to make it make sense to me. jmo.

They simply shot them from the front or side. They didn't want to awaken any of them as most probably had a gun and cell phone nearby and would put up a fight.

 

[Tiff23fr]

I had a medical procedure this morning with anesthesia. They warned me not to operate heavy machinery or drive a car, but they didn't say anything about posting to Websleuths!!!!
I would swear I saw this somewhere, but it might have also been my scribbled notes and/or transposed numbers (and lingering affects of anesthesia)! I looked back through the thread and went back to MSM articles and I just can't find it. So, until I can source it, consider it a rumor.

You're not imagining it. It's not in a publication but is I guess I must say "rumored" to be in the recent discovery docs.
I'm not sure how else to say that.

 

[Betty P]

We assume ammonia may have been used at the crime scenes. What if they were used on those bulletproof vests instead?

I don't think it would matter. The only way to remove DNA is with a very strong bleach solution (10%), left in place for several minutes or more. That's for hard surfaces. With fabric or woven materials, it would probably be more difficult, JMO.

PCR: how to kill unwanted DNA. - PubMed - NCBI

The ammonia story seems to be just that - a myth. It might degrade some DNA, but scientists can still extract it. Keep in mind, too those crime scenes were dark. Seem unlikely they turned on many lights, so really impossible to see all spots of possible blood/tissue spatter.

W's were on a tight schedule. They needed to manage the dogs, locate and kill the victims, steal what they could, take surveillance equipment, etc. then get out and on to the next crime scene - 4 times, 8 people. All before sunrise or before someone drove by on their way to work. Not a lot of time to thoroughly soak any blood remnants to remove DNA. Not at those crime scenes. JMO

 

[NWLady]

If he had been awake, I'm sure FR would have fought. IIRC, BJM said both he and HHG were lying in the bed with their baby between them.

Just jumping off your post -

IF they were awakened from sleep, they was probably very startled and my guess would be that they wouldn't have had much time, if any, to respond to what was about to take place. I know when I wake up, it takes me a short bit of time to be alert enough to even get up and moving. JMO but I think that's why the W's decided to carry out their plan at night was to catch them all off guard - that shows just what cowards they were/are!

It is just so sad to think about how this must have all went down....the victims didn't have a chance with being attacked/ambushed the way they were...

 

[Cool Cats]

“As for the use of ammonia, I'm not sure how much it could help protect the Wagners. Most of the DNA the Wags would contaminate at the crime scenes belonged to the Rhodens. LE would expect to find it there.

My opinion. Supposition.
We don’t know if any Wagner sustained injuries, maybe blood was spilled, or transferred.
CRsr and GR may have fought and injure byd one of the Wags. Same at FR’s place. Hard to believe FR didn’t fight.
I am starting to think Rhodens (CRsr GR,FR,HG,DR,HR) were not actually sleeping. More likely they all were made to lie down. Very hard to imagine not one Wag received an injury. That’s partly why I wonder if any Wagners were at the funeral. Were any of them seen around town in the weeks after 4/22

Jake gave an interview 3 weeks after the murders but LE likely saw him sooner because LE went heavy on the Manleys, waking BJM up I think around 3:00am for an interview and asking for DNA and lie detectors, even Brently's mom had to give a DNA sample.

My 2 Cents is LE would also need to see the Wagners right away. Family is looked at first and LE needs DNA pronto! LE took the Wags DNA and suspected injuries on them would be noted.

As for the killers forcing them to lie down...My 2 Cents.....that never happened. Frankie and HG were shot in bed, Kenny was shot in bed, HR was shot in bed.
James saw Dana's feet when he looked in the house (this is how he knew that he didn't want to see his niece Hanna like that and this information was quickly redacted) and she was shot 4 times on the right side of her head, and once under the chin which is consistent with her standing and being ambushed.

Little Chris was possibly hiding behind the bed and 2 shots were to the top of his head, consistent with the killers finding him hiding and looking down on him. Chris was likely shot through a door and had a defensive wound and likely was moving. That leaves Gary, 2 shots were to his head and one to his face. When victims kneel or lay down they are usually shot from behind, not in the face...My 2 Cents....

Chris Jr. 4 shots, 2 in the top of his head...
Rhoden massacre: Autopsy reveals gruesome details in slayings of 8 family members

Gary 3 shots, 1 in the face...
Rhoden family autopsy reports show 8 killings were methodical and vicious

Dana 5 shots, 4 to right side of head, 1 under chin...
Rhoden family autopsy reports show 8 killings were methodical and vicious

 

[Dudly]

Solar powered external camera?? Just a thought...

On the dogs?

 

[Dudly]

Jake gave an interview 3 weeks after the murders but LE likely saw him sooner because LE went heavy on the Manleys, waking BJM up I think around 3:00am for an interview and asking for DNA and lie detectors, even Brently's mom had to give a DNA sample.

My 2 Cents is LE would also need to see the Wagners right away. Family is looked at first and LE needs DNA pronto! LE took the Wags DNA and suspected injuries on them would be noted.

As for the killers forcing them to lie down...My 2 Cents.....that never happened. Frankie and HG were shot in bed, Kenny was shot in bed, HR was shot in bed.
James saw Dana's feet when he looked in the house (this is how he knew that he didn't want to see his niece Hanna like that and this information was quickly redacted) and she was shot 4 times on the right side of her head, and once under the chin which is consistent with her standing and being ambushed.

Little Chris was possibly hiding behind the bed and 2 shots were to the top of his head, consistent with the killers finding him hiding and looking down on him. Chris was likely shot through a door and had a defensive wound and likely was moving. That leaves Gary, 2 shots were to his head and one to his face. When victims kneel or lay down they are usually shot from behind, not in the face...My 2 Cents....

Chris Jr. 4 shots, 2 in the top of his head...
Rhoden massacre: Autopsy reveals gruesome details in slayings of 8 family members

Gary 3 shots, 1 in the face...
Rhoden family autopsy reports show 8 killings were methodical and vicious

Dana 5 shots, 4 to right side of head, 1 under chin...
Rhoden family autopsy reports show 8 killings were methodical and vicious

BBM
I don't know that anything about James seeing Dana's feet was redacted but from what I understand was not accurate or not ever confirmed as accurate. Also, I thought it was said she was shot four times across her forehead and under the chin.
From what I have read, and it would have to be considered as rumor here, is that James found her in bed with a pillow over her face.

 

[Howcanppldosuch]

I'm going to guess that technology involved the ability to extract DNA from ammonia soaked blood/tissue.

Do we know for sure ammonia was used? Or just speculation due to the movie?

 

[Deleted member 237253]

All just speculation at this point.

 

[Puzzles8]

Do we know for sure ammonia was used? Or just speculation due to the movie?

I think you are correct that it is just speculation at this point. The Boondock Saints movie plot appears to be part of the prosecution's case against the W4. We are speculating possible parallels between the actual crime to the movie.
Speaking of which, I thought of a few more.
I have read the windows were open in CRsr's and FR's trailers. Maybe that's why CRsr's dogs were put outside, they could have died from the fumes from the ammonia. There were 2 small children in FR's trailer. Were they worried about fumes killing the children? Also, wasn't KR's dog Brownie found outside?
Were any windows open in DR's trailer or KR's trailer?

 

[IQuestion]

I have no doubt LE has DNA evidence from the crime scenes. The difficulty in proceeding in a case, is matching the DNA to a suspect or finding it in a CODIS match. But, if the suspect refuses to give up DNA, (not mandatory in many states) and had never been arrested, LE would have to ask a suspect to voluntarily give a DNA sample. What are the chances LE were never able to get a voluntary DNA sample from the W's?? GW3 had an arrest record, but DNA was not mandatory then!
W4's had an attorney "spokesman" early on and I am "assuming" the attorney advised them not to give into a DNA request. Anyway, it could be the reason for the additional length of time it took to get the evidence they needed for an arrest. This is all Just My Opinion AND a suggestion on why it took so long. You can't just walk up to someone and ask them to give their DNA without cause. The brothers never had their DNA in CODIS....is my thought on the issue. LE needed more physical evidence. And/or they followed GW4 around when he returned to Ohio for his change in visitation and got some DNA from a discarded eating utensil???
Oh yeah, on the forged documents....bet someone left their fingerprints on the paper they handled. IMO, of course!!

 

[IQuestion]

I have no doubt LE has DNA evidence from the crime scenes. The difficulty in proceeding in a case, is matching the DNA to a suspect or finding it in a CODIS match. But, if the suspect refuses to give up DNA, (not mandatory in many states) and had never been arrested, LE would have to ask a suspect to voluntarily give a DNA sample. What are the chances LE were never able to get a voluntary DNA sample from the W's?? GW3 had an arrest record, but DNA was not mandatory then!
W4's had an attorney "spokesman" early on and I aAm "assuming" the attorney advised them not to give into a DNA request. Anyway, it could be the reason for the additional length of time it took to get the evidence they needed for an arrest. This is all Just My Opinion AND a suggestion on why it took so long. You can't just walk up to someone and ask them to give their DNA without cause. The brothers never had their DNA in CODIS....is my thought on the issue. LE needed more physical evidence. And/or they followed GW4 around when he returned to Ohio for his change in visitation and got some DNA from a discarded eating utensil???
Oh yeah, on the forged documents....bet someone left their fingerprints on the paper they handled. IMO, of course!!

Also adding, DeWine mentioned a relatively new process....mitochondrial dna testing?? Or how about "touch DNA" very expensive and not available except in certain labs.??
Great strides have been made in cold cases by LE testing close relatives to narrow their search on suspects....wonder if RN was "convinced" to give up a sample?? Might as well start with the crime that was the easiest to prove, FORGERY. Of course, just throwing out this topic for discussion and not in anyway implying that this is what occurred. Just trying out possible scenarios.

 

[Betty P]

Also adding, DeWine mentioned a relatively new process....mitochondrial dna testing?? Or how about "touch DNA" very expensive and not available except in certain labs.??
Great strides have been made in cold cases by LE testing close relatives to narrow their search on suspects....wonder if RN was "convinced" to give up a sample?? Might as well start with the crime that was the easiest to prove, FORGERY. Of course, just throwing out this topic for discussion and not in anyway implying that this is what occurred. Just trying out possible scenarios.

Mitochondrial DNA can be taken from hair. Its not as easy, but can still be matched to within a lesser certainty. Wonder if they retrieved some hair evidence at the crime scenes?

 

[Puzzles8]

Also adding, DeWine mentioned a relatively new process....mitochondrial dna testing?? Or how about "touch DNA" very expensive and not available except in certain labs.??
Great strides have been made in cold cases by LE testing close relatives to narrow their search on suspects....wonder if RN was "convinced" to give up a sample?? Might as well start with the crime that was the easiest to prove, FORGERY. Of course, just throwing out this topic for discussion and not in anyway implying that this is what occurred. Just trying out possible scenarios.

IQ, you are truly amazing! What a find!
I found an article that explains mitochondrial dna testing. The part of the article that really caught my eye, "Mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) has provided forensic scientists with a valuable tool for determining the source of DNA recovered from damaged, degraded, or very small biological samples."
Forensic DNA: Mitochondrial DNA | National Institute of Justice
ETA - This is inherited through your maternal side.

 

[Betty P]

Also adding, DeWine mentioned a relatively new process....mitochondrial dna testing?? Or how about "touch DNA" very expensive and not available except in certain labs.??
Great strides have been made in cold cases by LE testing close relatives to narrow their search on suspects....wonder if RN was "convinced" to give up a sample?? Might as well start with the crime that was the easiest to prove, FORGERY. Of course, just throwing out this topic for discussion and not in anyway implying that this is what occurred. Just trying out possible scenarios.

And once FW was arrested, they may have been able to take her DNA, too, for a match with GW3. And, of course, once they arrested the W4, they were able to take a DNA swab from all of them.

DeWine and BCI got some experience w/ prosecuting a case with familial DNA a couple of years ago, with FBI help. It was a guy from Lorain/Elyria, OH who kidnapped and raped a little girl and attempted to kidnap another. They couldn't match the DNA evidence to the kidnapper, but they were able to match it to his brother, who was incarcerated in OH for another crime. Turned out they didn't have to prosecute. With the evidence, the kidnapper ended up making a plea deal in turn for his confession, IIRC.

It's one thing to get the scientific evidence to match familial or mtDNA, but something else to sell it in court.

 

[IQuestion]

IQ, you are truly amazing! What a find!
I found an article that explains mitochondrial dna testing. The part of the article that really caught my eye, "Mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) has provided forensic scientists with a valuable tool for determining the source of DNA recovered from damaged, degraded, or very small biological samples."
Forensic DNA: Mitochondrial DNA | National Institute of Justice

Thank you PUZZLES8, it is the progress that LE has made in using mitochondrial DNA to solve crimes that is the amazing hero! Practically every LE agency in the US is now opening cold cases and solving them using this technology. This is how LE finally caught the Golden State Killer. I have done extensive research in that case....it consumed me for reasons beyond the scope of this case. Unless someone's DNA is in CODIS, it is almost impossible to find the killer, until now. People are really into DNA sites, 23 and Me, VisualDNA, FamilyDNA.com, myfamilydnatest.com, and LE has found it to be useful in crime solving..
https://vitals.lifehacker.com/public-dna-databases-are-now-crawling-with-law-enforce...
Great job LE...new technology is amazing.

 

[Johnny B Bad]

BBM
I don't know that anything about James seeing Dana's feet was redacted but from what I understand was not accurate or not ever confirmed as accurate. Also, I thought it was said she was shot four times across her forehead and under the chin.
From what I have read, and it would have to be considered as rumor here, is that James found her in bed with a pillow over her face.

Right after the murders Mike DeWine was on tv explaining what was going on in the investigation when a lady maybe a reporter gave the note to him about the marijuana growing on the farm, his face just lost all expressions, that day JMO the killers reported the marijuana growing to make it look like a cartel hit, just more lies from the accused!