OH Pike County: 8 in Rhoden Family Murdered Over Custody Issue 4 Members Wagner Family Arrested#48

[Cool Cats]

CC people take their kids to rob a store at gun point and to break into houses. I saw one video caught of a man taking his 2 year old child to break into a store late at night. Poor baby was just standing there watching her father pry open a back door.

If the kids were asleep in the back of the SUV chances are they never woke up. Kids sleep very well in cars. I remember putting my son in a car to get him to go to sleep at night. He would be cranky and not want to sleep and we would put him in the car and drive around and he would be asleep in minutes. Hubby would then carry him in and put him in his bed without him ever waking up. I think all parents have been there with a small child who doesn't want to go to sleep. When he was a baby we would sit him on top of the washing machine in a car seat. The spin cycle would have him sleeping in minutes.

As far as having to explain to Rita or Fred after I don't think any explanation was needed. Don't forget Rita forged custody papers and her and Fred are both charged with lying to a GJ right now.

We will know when Angie goes to trial whether she was there or not. My bet is she was, front and center, making sure they all did what she said.

JMO

And I think Angie wasn't there but is being charged with Burglary because she was involved with setting it up and getting rid of the stolen items. Under "complicated" Burglary Conspiracy Laws, some States will charge you for Burglary even if your not there. But it's too complicated to figure out without a criminal attorney to explain it.

So even though I'm in the minority here, I believe Angie stayed home to help set up an alibi and to watch the kids. And I think even though she wasn't there, the prosecution doesn't care, they all conspired and planned and destroyed evidence so they all get the same charges. Same with the murders. Angie is charged with murder even if she wasn't there.

And they are all being charged for Burglary even if one of them was just the look out and didn't go in any homes, even if one of them just sat in the car the whole time.

We will see who guessed right at trial. I hope we find this out. The prosecution may bring up evidence that does prove Angie was at the scenes.

 

[MittenScarpetta]

I have thought Dana was in bed but was awake or awakened. I believe the shooter wanted her to see who they were. The gun under the chin was for the shooter to let her know what was going to happen, maybe make a comment, but mainly to let her know whom was shooting her.
My opinion only of course.

I tend to agree that she was at least laying in bed when approached. I’m sure whether she was asleep or awake will remain a mystery, unless of course the trials disclose evidence of Dana not being in bed. JMO

 

[FrescaandSouthernComfort]

Betty, wouldn’t all four of the Wagners had to have been at each crime scene since all four of them are charged with four counts of burglary (one for each crime scene)?

Not all states define burglary the same. In Ohio , it is defined as breaking and entering
or crossing the threshold to commit a crime. No forced entry is necessary, and yes, all
4 Wagners had to be present to be charged.

 

[MittenScarpetta]

Not all states define burglary the same. In Ohio , it is defined as breaking and entering
or crossing the threshold to commit a crime. No forced entry is necessary, and yes, all
4 Wagners had to be present to be charged.

Thank you. I agree that all four had to be present to be charged.

 

[Johnny B Bad]

What if Dana wasn’t awake but was laying in bed on her back, asleep when approached? Think of a person laying on their back and how their head/chin are positioned. Could she have been shot under the chin while laying in bed asleep?

It depends on which way you look at it but I think both scenarios are possible.

What about April Manleys post about James seeing Dana’s legs in the hallway and hearing the baby crying, then he backed out of the house fearing to see what they look like

 

[FrescaandSouthernComfort]

I did mean the person that I think killed Kenny was AW because he was so relaxed that he had set back down on the bed and brownie his dog did not care who was in the camper, if you think, just a couple weeks prior to the murders the Wagners men had altercation with the Rhodens so do you think Kenny would open the door up for one of the Wagners men, (also remember the women fan club at Billy last pre-trial) plus AW and Billy weren’t staying together he had a room at his mother and she had her dads house

That was KR demeanor. Calm and relaxed unless forced to react. There is no way KR
would allow a Wagner to enter his home. They entered and surprised KR and Brownie.

 

[Johnny B Bad]

Most people like the Wagners that kill for their gain takes some kind of trophy or a reminder to have, there was rumors of a bible that was missing, I’m not for sure but you can bet that Jake took something and Billy Wagner has the scorpion tattoo put on that trigger finger just to show the community that they should fear him or else. JMO

 

[Cool Cats]

I tend to agree that she was at least laying in bed when approached. I’m sure whether she was asleep or awake will remain a mystery, unless of course the trials disclose evidence of Dana not being in bed. JMO

I think the trials will show Dana was shot in her living room. My opinion only but I think the shot under the chin was done while she was standing and then the other 4 shots, which were all on the same side of her head, were done after she fell. They grabbed her and it was very personal, she stood up for her daughter and they wanted to make her pay.

April Manley said her husband went in and saw Dana 's legs and heard Kylie crying and came out saying he couldn't go in to see his niece like that. Her front door opened into her living room.

It doesn't sound like he went to Dana's bedroom and saw her there because he saw her legs and he would have went to Hanna's room first because Kylie was crying.
I'm going by what April was quoted as saying. If she was misquoted then I think yes, Dana could have been in bed.

This is Dana's house and you can see her door opens into her living room.
dana rhoden house - Bing images

My 2 Cents Only.....

 

[Johnny B Bad]

That was KR demeanor. Calm and relaxed unless forced to react. There is no way KR
would allow a Wagner to enter his home. They entered and surprised KR and Brownie.

Your probably right, the autopsy of KR indicates he was killed around the same time that Hanna, Cris Jr and Dana, not like big Chris

 

[MittenScarpetta]

I think the trials will show Dana was shot in her living room. My opinion only but I think the shot under the chin was done while she was standing and then the other 4 shots, which were all on the same side of her head, were done after she fell. They grabbed her and it was very personal, she stood up for her daughter and they wanted to make her pay.

April Manley said her husband went in and saw Dana 's legs and heard Kylie crying and came out saying he couldn't go in to see his niece like that. Her front door opened into her living room.

It doesn't sound like he went to Dana's bedroom and saw her there because he saw her legs and he would have went to Hanna's room first because Kylie was crying.
I'm going by what April was quoted as saying. If she was misquoted then I think yes, Dana could have been in bed.

This is Dana's house and you can see her door opens into her living room.
dana rhoden house - Bing images

My 2 Cents Only.....

I’ve read it too. And I’ve inspected photos of the house to no end. I think James’ statement could’ve been made after walking through the living room into the kitchen and approaching Dana’s room. The trials will reveal the specifics but I suppose it’s all a matter of perception at this point.

 

[MittenScarpetta]

Good theory, I noticed that in AW's discovery, too. BR may not have known her, but could describe her appearance, maybe what she was wearing. What a horrific thought. What kind of mother/grandmother could be part of such a horrible act? The 4 W's are very sick people.

This is the article that changed my mind about whether B saw or heard anything that night/early morning.

2 years since Pike County slayings, surviving child lives with fear. 'He's trapped by it'

 

[Cool Cats]

I’ve read it too. And I’ve inspected photos of the house to no end. I think James’ statement could’ve been made after walking through the living room into the kitchen and approaching Dana’s room. The trials will reveal the specifics but I suppose it’s all a matter of perception at this point.

Yes. If he saw Dana lying down it could be anywhere from the living room to Hanna 's room. But it sounds like she was out of bed. But yes, it is a matter of perception and it shouldn't matter but it really does.

 

[MittenScarpetta]

Yes. If he saw Dana lying down it could be anywhere from the living room to Hanna 's room. But it sounds like she was out of bed. But yes, it is a matter of perception and it shouldn't matter but it really does.

I agree that it for sure matters in the grand scheme of how the actual murders took place. I’m sure investigators know and the state will disclose that information during the trials.

 

[OhioBlues]

A tough old bird. (FW's attorney)

A Stern Matriarch, the kind that likes to have control of every situation. (The community people that know FW)

Exhaustive investigation leads to break in Pike County murder case

I was searching for an article that Holly Z had written but thought this was enlightening.

 

[Cool Cats]

I agree that it for sure matters in the grand scheme of how the actual murders took place. I’m sure investigators know and the state will disclose that information during the trials.

Yes. And even if for some reason there are no trials, I think that some family members will want to know the details, in fact, they likely do know details we don't. Also, they have the full autopsies and I don't blame them for wanting to keep them as private as possible.

I wonder if there is any direct evidence that can prove that the Wagner's were in the 4 houses. Or if it is just circumstantial evidence?

 

[MittenScarpetta]

Yes. And even if for some reason there are no trials, I think that some family members will want to know the details, in fact, they likely do know details we don't. Also, they have the full autopsies and I don't blame them for wanting to keep them as private as possible.

I wonder if there is any direct evidence that can prove that the Wagner's were in the 4 houses. Or if it is just circumstantial evidence?

Perhaps it’s all evidence combined that places them there? For example, if victim DNA and/or blood was found in the vehicle sold by the Wagners, can a jury assume one or all of the defendants were at the crime scenes at the time of the murders? Maybe there’s a fingerprint (doubtful) or touch DNA that was found? Or perhaps the clouds from the surveillance systems were able to be recovered and forensically analyzed? There’s a lot of what if’s and factors that come in to play, but I would assume that if the evidence of burglary is circumstantial that it’s a whole lot of circumstancial and so overwhelming that there’s no way, without a doubt that anyone but the defendants burglarized the victim’s homes in order to commit murder.

 

[OhioBlues]

Yes. And even if for some reason there are no trials, I think that some family members will want to know the details, in fact, they likely do know details we don't. Also, they have the full autopsies and I don't blame them for wanting to keep th cem as private as possible.

I wonder if there is any direct evidence that can prove that the Wagner's were in the 4 houses. Or if it is just circumstantial evidence?

Most murder cases are circumstantial. Criminals typically turn off the camera prior to the murder. In this case, the state alleges that the W's did counter-surveillance so the murders wouldn't be on a Rhoden camera.

 

[Cool Cats]

Perhaps it’s all evidence combined that places them there? For example, if victim DNA and/or blood was found in the vehicle sold by the Wagners, can a jury assume one or all of the defendants were at the crime scenes at the time of the murders? Maybe there’s a fingerprint (doubtful) or touch DNA that was found? Or perhaps the clouds from the surveillance systems were able to be recovered and forensically analyzed? There’s a lot of what if’s and factors that come in to play, but I would assume that if the evidence of burglary is circumstantial that it’s a whole lot of circumstancial and so overwhelming that there’s no way, without a doubt that anyone but the defendants burglarized the victim’s homes in order to commit murder.

Exactly. Circumstantial evidence being overwhelming.

It's circumstantial that they happened to buy parts to build a silencer a couple months before the murders, and circumstantial to find the parts to build a silencer on their property, and circumstantial that they downloaded a movie that involved shooting people with silencers.

And it's circumstantial that they bought shoes a couple months before the murders that (possibly?) have a tread that is the type of tread found at the scenes.

And it's circumstantial that there are forged custody documents dated right before the murders.

And it's circumstantial that there was a custody dispute.

And circumstantial that they were spying on them.

And circumstantial that they went shopping at different Walmarts all over the State of Ohio.

And circumstantial that Hanna was pregnant with another man's baby, and had dumped Jake for good.

And circumstantial that the killers waited for Hanna to have her baby, making it obvious that she was the main target, which points to custody.

And circumstantial that they knew the Rhodens intimately, knew their properties, and Jake had lived with them.

And circumstantial that all 4 of them have no alibi other than that they were a short drive away that night at home. (I assume that is their alibi)

But you are absolutely hitting the nail on the head that the circumstantial evidence builds and builds to becoming overwhelming. It gets to the point where it's obvious no one else could have done it but them.

But what if they found direct evidence? A silencer ballistics match, a blood DNA match in the car, their own voices over wiretaps, an eyewitness such as Brently hearing or seeing something, their vehicle on someone's security footage etc....?

And I only touched on a small bit of what they have. We shall see.

 

[Sillybilly]

It is a violation of Websleuths TOS to bring rumors into the discussions.

Posts discussing rumor have been removed. If it continues, we will start issuing thread reply bans.

 

[MittenScarpetta]

Exactly. Circumstantial evidence being overwhelming.

It's circumstantial that they happened to buy parts to build a silencer a couple months before the murders, and circumstantial to find the parts to build a silencer on their property, and circumstantial that they downloaded a movie that involved shooting people with silencers.

And it's circumstantial that they bought shoes a couple months before the murders that (possibly?) have a tread that is the type of tread found at the scenes.

And it's circumstantial that there are forged custody documents dated right before the murders.

And it's circumstantial that there was a custody dispute.

And circumstantial that they were spying on them.

And circumstantial that they went shopping at different Walmarts all over the State of Ohio.

And circumstantial that Hanna was pregnant with another man's baby, and had dumped Jake for good.

And circumstantial that the killers waited for Hanna to have her baby, making it obvious that she was the main target, which points to custody.

And circumstantial that they knew the Rhodens intimately, knew their properties, and Jake had lived with them.

And circumstantial that all 4 of them have no alibi other than that they were a short drive away that night at home. (I assume that is their alibi)

But you are absolutely hitting the nail on the head that the circumstantial evidence builds and builds to becoming overwhelming. It gets to the point where it's obvious no one else could have done it but them.

But what if they found direct evidence? A silencer ballistics match, a blood DNA match in the car, their own voices over wiretaps, an eyewitness such as Brently hearing or seeing something, their vehicle on someone's security footage etc....?

And I only touched on a small bit of what they have. We shall see.

I’d imagine there is also enough direct evidence since it appears that most of the circumstantial evidence that we know existed long before arrests were made. Imagine the circumstancial evidence we don’t yet know. And also imagine the direct evidence yet to be disclosed.

There’s a lot of things that are yet to be answered. But IMO, there’s enough known now and there was enough known long before arrests to know who’s guilty and who is not.

In the meantime, I’m still sticking with the prosecution having enough evidence to place each defendant at each of the four locations in order to indict all of them on charges of aggravated burglary. LE and investigators can use a lot of tactics in their work but what they cannot do is make up evidence in order to secure an indictment. I have to believe that there was enough evidence presented to the Grand Jurors that was so overwhelming convincing the Jurors chose to indict. JMHO

 

[MittenScarpetta]

Cool Ctas I have to disagree about Angie. This is the age of feminists. Women fight on the front lines now. They are all over LE, carrying guns, arresting people. And they do it very well. They don't let their husbands, boyfriends, sons, ect tell them what they can and cannot do. I think Angie was right there along with the other three pulling the trigger. Angie was the only one of the four that had military experience. She hunted right along with the men. So she knew how to shoot and handle a gun. That is why she is charged with 1st degree murder along with the rest of them.

As for where the two little ones were? I think either Rita or Fred had them. That doesn't necessarily mean Rita or Fred knew what was going down that night. Kids are open to suggestion. For instance Angie could have said to them "Do you want to stay all night with Granny Rita (or Fred)" before she pulled up in the driveway and the kids would have ran into the house clamoring to stay the night with granny like it was their idea all along. Granny would have course said yes they can stay if they want to. Granny would have probably known later what went down and why the kids were with her that night but witness Fred's lies to cover for her son right now and you know why granny would never tell anyone the kids stayed the night with her.

Another more horrible scenario is that the two little ones were asleep in the car. These murders were done in the middle of the night, the wee hours of the morning. The vehicle they used was an SUV. They could have made them a bed in the very back and told them they were going on a road trip or even have carried them out there after they were asleep. Kids have been stolen from their beds late at night without ever waking up.

All JMO of course.

It will be interesting to see if either of these minor children have been interviewed since the arrests. IMO, the Wagner’s kept a strong shield on these children when it came to LE gaining access to either child for interview purposes prior to 11/13/18.

And as we all know, kids hear and see more than adults realize. Kids are also known for saying the darnedest things. JMHO.