GUILTY OK - Five Bever family members slain in their Broken Arrow home, 22 July 2015

Discussion in 'Recently Sentenced and Beyond' started by zwiebel, Jul 23, 2015.

  1. pepelepolecat

    pepelepolecat Member

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    bbm, of course not. Depression is common, and some struggle with ptsd. But I think many would be surprised how many otherwise healthy, functioning people have a history of being abused. There's an undeserved stigma, iow. In my opinion.

    More than half of sociopathy is heritable, according to some research. (Ferguson, C. (2010).Genetic Contributions to Antisocial Personality and Behavior. Journal of Social Psychology). I hope this link is okay to share: https://www.psychologytoday.com/blo...are/201008/nature-vs-nurture-the-debate-rages

    It's more complex than, "Well, he was abused." And imo (this is only my opinion), that generalization increases the unfair, unjust stigma against abuse survivors and gives us an easy way to ignore what other issues might have contributed -- especially if those issues require us to take a good long look at things that make us uncomfortable.
     


  2. Hatfield

    Hatfield Well-Known Member

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    JMO
    You bring up good points. The part of this story that provides some evidence of family dynamics being at least a part of this story is the fact that both boys seemed more than willing to be part of this.

    It is so strange to me that both boys seemed more than willing to be part. So unless both boys are diagnosed with some sort of mental illness then I have to say that family dynamics may have been a part of this.

    Someone did bring up a good point that the older boy could have pursuaded and controlled the younger one which could also come into play. But the younger would still have to agree to this atrocity.

    I suppose the experts will be analyzing everything and time will tell. We may just have to wait a long time before the experts try to analyze what happened to the 2 boys.

    In the meantime all we have is what we have gathered so far from friends and neighbors and maybe some relatives.
     
  3. Inthedetails

    Inthedetails Well-Known Member

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    I'm only learning about this case now. My hunch is that the 18yo was facing a crisis in his life - he was at the age when HE himself was responsible for his life. He couldn't blame mom and dad or his education because as an adult, you take responsibility for yourself and make something with what abilities and tenacity you have.

    And that's the key word - tenacity. He thought of himself as smart and he blamed his parents for inadequacies in his upbringing....but what could he do for himself? Did he have the guts to venture forth on his own? Could he roll up his sleeves and put in the effort HIMSELF to make his ambitions come true? Did he realize it takes work more than smarts to make a life; it's not something mom and dad arrange for you anymore?

    I think he was scared of the future and knew deep down that if he committed horrible crimes, he'd be taken care of for life in jail. And he could silence the very people who probably were encouraging him to make some moves on his own. I don't think he consciously thought this, but deep inside he knew the crimes would be an excuse why his life didn't work out. And if his sibling were dead, he wouldn't have to watch them succeed.

    I don't think his parents were standing in his way at all in life. He was 18. If he wanted to go to Harvard or skydive or work at a fast-food joint, he could do that. He didn't know what to do, so he killed. Sick, sad, true, but that's how I see it.

    He brought along his brother because misery likes company.

    Armchair analysis. JMO.
     
    claudianunes likes this.
  4. Hatfield

    Hatfield Well-Known Member

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    Great post.

    I also agree that him turning 18 may end up being a key "turning point" that put him over the edge.
     
  5. bluesneakers

    bluesneakers not today satan

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    If you look at Karla Homolka's mugshot her eyes are small and sunken and Paul Bernardo's are also smallish (and flat and dead imo).

    The only thing I've read about eyes is when the sclera is visible below the iris. There's a Japanese word for it - Sanpaku.

    Are we allowed to link to wikipedia?
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanpaku
     
  6. human

    human Well-Known Member

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    Child abuse is not OK. Stigma? I have never heard that but if that is true, it must be nipped.

    It is not the child's fault!

    Reading about some "accepted" methods such a blanket training by the Duggars makes me ill.
     
  7. human

    human Well-Known Member

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  8. Carrollz

    Carrollz New Member

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    Inthedetails, it's just so hard for me to fathom because abstractedly it makes perfect sense but you still have to take the actions to get there that I just don't know how they were able to follow through with that and even after the fact having no remorse (but maybe that is just shock?) I was telling someone about this when I first read the motive here and he replied, "Oh, so he wanted to become famous and then be taken care of the rest of his life." I didn't even get that statement until I read your post here. I guess that is what it comes down to.

    As far as conjecturing over their home life, it just doesn't seem to me like the parents did anything but the best they could and actually much, much more than most. I was reading some comment elsewhere where someone said if only the parents took better control of their children and instilled a religious faith in them they wouldn't have had this problem -parents get it from both ends it seems. The reality is that healthy normal adults do come from all kinds of chaotic upbringings as long as the children are not malnourished or never receive physical contact I don't think we can entirely blame parents (beyond passed on genetics) for them growing up into murderers -nowadays with the internet and computer games/programs even children in isolation (which while perhaps not the most social and community involved people around certainly was not the case here) are being raised by a village beyond just their own family. I just can't point the finger here at the parents... with how much outside contact/opportunity, financial security, family members, etc these boys had no matter how awful their parents may have been behind closed doors (and I still feel all indications point towards them being very loving caring parents) theirs was still a much, much better upbringing than many people I know had (which is only part of why this particular case freaks me out so much). I'm pointing the finger directly at those boys, they are completely of their own monstrous creation, imo.
     
  9. Carrollz

    Carrollz New Member

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    I just have not been able to get this story off my mind, I was reading about the 911 call and sounds like there was a lot more to it with the caller able to discuss location and ask for help and sounds of a 'gruesome' struggle were heard, it makes me wonder about a comment in one of the papers I read that when the police arrived they saw blood on the step at the front door... was one of the children trying to escape? It's all just so, so horrifying and sickening, that poor family, those poor children, I cannot even imagine being betrayed by their big brothers like that...
     
  10. fabvab

    fabvab Well-Known Member

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    A vigil is planned for this evening with purple and white balloons. White for the innocent lives lost and purple for domestic violence. The vigil will take place in front of the home, and they are collecting items to give to the 2 surviving girls. The organizers were told by the Broken Arrow police that the 13 yr. old is encouraged by every display of love that's being shown for her family.

    These 2 links give more details to the above info. You can also follow the links and find all other stories done by this local TV station which is KOTV.

    http://www.newson6.com/story/29664215/community-remembers-murdered-ba-family-collects-goods-for-surviving-children

    http://www.newson6.com/story/29645539/community-showing-support-for-members-of-murdered-ba-family
     
  11. FragileSugar

    FragileSugar Active Member

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    Sorry to quote myself but a thought occurred to me as I was reading everyone's speculation about why these two boys killed their family. I remember reading the April Bever's post about the boys' schooling and I'm going to toss this out here: What if the 18y/o wasn't the one in charge? In his mugshot he has a crazed, unhinged sort of look. Meanwhile the 16y/o looks positively chilling in his mugshot - much more cold and calculating with dead eyes. What if he was the one pulling the strings and manipulating his older brother? The 16y/o had the drive to finish high school early. The 18 y/o slowed down and didn't graduate "early" (did he finish on time?) and we've heard from his former co-worker that he had some sort of superiority complex and was too busy blaming his homeschooling as the reason for not being able to get in to places like Harvard. It would be easy for someone (like the 16 y/o) to manipulate a person like that (the 18 y/o)- listen to their grievances, feed them suggestions and what-if scenarios, and play the part of the supportive underling. The 18 y/o is the one doing all the talking right now and I've noticed that all the attention is on him and the general consensus seems to be that he was the ring-leader and he is the one that led the younger brother on this undertaking.
     
  12. chissus

    chissus Active Member

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    Interesting. I hadn't thought of this. Deserves thinking about.
     
  13. Carrollz

    Carrollz New Member

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    Unfortunately, and as awful as it is to comprehend, I really just can't see there being a ring leader here in this situation, not with the others trying to escape and calling 911 for help, and it obviously being a situation that had to have been discussed and planned out for some time. I feel like they had to both be 100% into it and equally 'in charge' for them to have managed what they did.
     
  14. FragileSugar

    FragileSugar Active Member

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    http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/jul/28/broken-arrow-oklahoma-bever-family-stabbings-911-call

    An Oklahoma city said on Tuesday it wouldn’t release a recording of the 911 call made from a Broken Arrow home where a couple and three of their children were stabbed to death last week.

    Authorities initially said the call, described by Broken Arrow police sergeant Thomas Cooper as “gruesome”, would be released on Monday, but an assistant to the city attorney indicated on Tuesday to the Associated Press that it would not be released because it is part of the investigation into the deaths of the five members of the Bever family. The assistant, Rhonda Hunter, said the attorney’s office would issue a statement later on Tuesday.

    Cooper had previously described the nature of the call: the caller reports that his brother is attacking the family before the caller and dispatcher have a short exchange about the location of the home.

    “They’re able to confirm the location, and then it basically goes to an open line for a little while and you can hear a struggle there and then it disconnects,” Cooper said then. “It’s fairly short, but it’s gruesome. Obviously the entire crime is gruesome, and the 911 call is just as bad.”
     
  15. bessythecat

    bessythecat New Member

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    I know there was some confusion about the 911 call being released. According to Lompo Record "An Oklahoma city reversed course Tuesday and said it would release a recording of the 911 call made from a Broken Arrow home where a couple and three of their children were stabbed to death last week.

    Broken Arrow City Attorney Beth Anne Wilkening said in a statement that investigators would provide the audio to the media next Tuesday."
    Source: http://lompocrecord.com/news/nation...cle_a132b3f0-4291-5bbc-a9d8-cd288dc9d809.html
     
  16. PastTense

    PastTense Well-Known Member

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    http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/brothers-charged-counts-murder-stabbing-deaths-32812532
     
  17. mikkismom

    mikkismom Well-Known Member

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  18. human

    human Well-Known Member

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  19. Mollyn59

    Mollyn59 New Member

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    IMO I don't believe that people are meaning that these boys did this because they were homeschooled. I think it's the fact that these children were so isolated and the way these parents chose to homeschool contributed to this isolation. They were not involved in activities that many homeschooled children attend. While there are incidences of these children being outside, they were few and far between.
     
  20. Carrollz

    Carrollz New Member

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    so from what neighbors say in that article the boys could be found out and about on their own even away from the house, clearly they had their own independence and freedom... I don't know about that neighbor that would "make it a point" to try to talk to the 16yo whenever he saw him alone, that was a bit odd I thought?
     

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