OK OK - Girl Scout Murders, Lori Farmer, 8, Michele Guse, 9, Doris Milner, 10, 1977 #2

Discussion in 'Cold Cases' started by Richard, Nov 13, 2005.

  1. Betty P

    Betty P Well-Known Member

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    Sadly, it wasn't unusual in those days for violent sex criminals like Hart to be released on parole after serving only a small part of their sentence. This was Hart's first serious crime and perhaps they wanted to give him a second chance. Most of the people living in Locust Grove were his family members, so they probably pressured the courts to give him another chance.

    However, in 1969, Hart was caught breaking into the apartment of Heather Campbell, a Tulsa police officer. She awoke to hear someone picking the lock on her front door. As he came in the door she told him to stop, but he didn't. She grabbed her service revolver off the bedside table and cocked it. He heard the sound and took off. She called police who arrived in a few minutes. They found Hart trying to break into another apartment on the floor above Campbell's. Durrr. He claimed he was looking for a friend and thought he was at a different apartment complex. He claimed he took a cab to get there. He wasn't wearing glasses this time and tripped a lot, couldn't read, etc. Police asked him where he parked his car, they needed to move it before it got towed. Not thinking, he told them where it was - a '63 white Chevy, parked a couple of blocks away from the apartment building. When is lawyer arrived, he talked to him and convinced him to plead guilty. He admitted trying to break into Officer Campbell's apartment.

    When they searched his car, they found several items, including a woman's purse, that had been stolen from other apartments. In one, couple weeks earlier, he had broken into the apartment of a married couple by taking the screen out of their window and climbing in. He robbed 2 other apartments in the weeks prior, taking wallets, a paring knife from a kitchen and a woman's purse. All were done while owners were home, asleep.

    In September 1969, he went on trial for the break in at Heather Campbell's apartment. The prosecutor offered to bargain a reduced sentence, but Hart refused. He was found guilty and sentenced to 30 to 90 years in the State Penitentiary.

    He was also tried for the other burglaries, refused to plea bargain and was also sentenced to long terms in the penitentiary.

    "On April 25, 1973, Hart was transferred from McAlester to Mayes County Jail so he could appear for post-conviction relief involving the rape-kidnapping charges imposed in 1966. Five days later Hart and another inmate, Larry Dry, escaped from the Mayes County Jail by sawing through the bars. On May 25, 1973, Hart was captured and charged with Second Degree Burglary after allegedly breaking into a home in Strang, OK. He was also charged with possessing a sawed off shotgun. On September 16, 1973, Hart again escaped from the Mayes County Jail along with Dry and another inmate. The other two were captured but Hart remained at large. "

    Some police didn't think Hart was just breaking in to people's homes to rob them while sleeping. Most burglars would make sure the home was empty. Some considered this the M.O. of a rapist.

    Quoted text is from Chapter 4 of Someone Cry for the Children. The rest is paraphrased from that chapter. I'm too busy to type all of it. Much is told by various law enforcement officers who worked on all these cases, as well as the Girl Scout Murders. It's a very long list of LE officers, prosecutors and judges and you pretty much need a "cheat sheet" to keep up with who is talking or being quoted.
     
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2021


  2. Richard

    Richard Well-Known Member

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    13 June 1977...

    [​IMG]
    L-R: Michelle Guse (9), Lori Farmer (8), Doris Milner (10)
     
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  3. Betty P

    Betty P Well-Known Member

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    I'm not finding anything in the book about the discovery of the bag with Doris Milner's shoes inside. The book doesn't have an index and the story line is not always in chronological order.

    I'll refer you to this link of an article in the Tulsa World about the discovery of Doris Milner's shoes

    http://www.girlscoutmurders.com/images/shoes.jpg

    The book reveals quite a few "spooky" and unnerving incidents at the camp and in the area around it during the investigation. It does appear someone was walking around in the woods, spying on the activities of the officers, interfering in the investigation.

    On page 113:

    "Occasional searches into the mountains and cliffs around Locust Grove continued. On August 1 a cave was discovered about one and a half miles from Camp Scott. On the wall, in what appeared to be a felt tip marking pencil, was written: "The killer was here. Bye-bye fools!" with the date 77-6-17. The arrangement of the date - year, month, day - was used almost exclusively in the state penitentiary.

    The news of the discovery spread quickly. Pete Weaver was implored by reporters to take them to the site so that they might photograph the writings. Amused by the prospect, Weaver agreed.

    A couple of days later he lead a group of the reporters to the cave. Weaver enjoyed the trip. For the first time, the reporters saw the terrain that the searchers had to contend with. They discovered the heat, the humidity, ticks, thorns, jagged rocks, snakes, cliffs, chiggers and the utter exhaustion that was experienced traversing the terrain. After an hour the reporters, carrying photographic equipment, covered with ticks virtually collapsed in front of the cave. "How the hell can anyone be found up here?" one reporter gasped. Weaver smiled as the reporters picked ticks from one another and gasped for air.

    "If this cave wasn't so remote, if it wasn't so difficult to get to, I might believe some prankster wrote it," Weaver said, pointing to the cave. "But why would someone come way up here to write a message that was only found by chance? No," Weaver told the reporters, "I think the killer wrote it. I'm sure of it. If this is the killer, he's taunting us, telling us he'll never get caught, but he will."
    This was not the same cave where police found the other evidence (newspaper that matched the page folded and wedged inside the flashlight found at the crime scene, photo of two women, glasses, tobacco and fires indicating NA medicine ceremony, etc) where they believed Hart had been staying. If analysis was done of the handwriting, its not mentioned. Back then, handwriting analysis was limited to handwriting, e.g. a signature, something written on a document. These days there are experts who claim to be able to identify "handrwiting" when it's printed in large format on a surface.



     
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  4. beubeubeu

    beubeubeu Well-Known Member

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    Thank You so much for clearing this things up. Not sure where I was expecting to go while knowing answers but I can think about it a bit more clearly now.

    It was mentioned in some article I believe: someone from LE stated that there were no missing shoes, and that each girl had two required pairs of shoes, and that they were in possesion of all of these (later Denise's mum could got one of them / not sure, if both).

    That pair found in bag supposedly was just left there by some girl, long before murders happened and that they ended up on stairs cause someone left them there while cleaning the buildings before closing up the camp.

    But it wasn't anything clear I believe. With these threads for example - couldn't animals tear them up while moving? If people were entering camp to hunt then something bigger than a bird lived there.

    [/QUOTE]
    Could be that someone did, could be that they were still so shocked and spooked by the murders and other stressful incidents that they feared more than they actually experienced.
    Also could be that someone, not neccessarily a murderer was curious about what's happening.
    I don't like this narrative. Why would someone wrote that? Because it was spooky and creepy, as a sick prank. Guess as good as why would murderer want to sign his remote hiding location? Maybe he did, maybe he didn't.
    It was hard to get there for reporters, not so hard for Weaver, and probably much easier for people frequently hanging out in the area.​
    I didn't knew that wasn't the same cave.
    So he admitted to the rapes but in the same time said that it was consensual and they pretty much enjoyed the idea of suffocating in the woods. Probably as much of confession as any rapist could give, especially in '77.

    Five months usually makes girl look pretty pregnant.
    Could be that he targeted them because they were pregnant and he just recently was kicked out by his (still? recently?) pregnant wife cause he was abusive towards her? He lost his "career" cause he got her pregnant, later he lost her and ability to see his child (by his own, disgusting actions but he might see it differently), could be that he raped and tried to kill them because he felt so much anger towards pregnant women?

    Two pregnant women reported what he did... female police officer reported what he tried to do...
    So I guess that there is a big chance that he was serial rapist but women who were alone, not police officers and attacked in their homes didn't reported that.
    Such a lovely, innocent times that raped women could be scared of being left by husband because of that rape. Most likely fear of not being believed was much stronger than now.

    Not sure where I was heading with this but... usually sex offenders don't mix attacks on adult women and small children, so three possibilities:
    1. he did attacked children before
    2. he didn't attacked gilrs at camp scott
    3. pretty recently something in his life made him hate little girls much more than women
    All three possible I guess.
    If so many people in the area were his relatives, then it could be quite likely that at least some of them had simmilar hairs, right?
    What does that mean it being soooo rare in general population if in his area it most likely wasn't?

    It speaks in favor of his possible innocence as well as of his guilt of this crime.
    Not very likely that he was their one and only favorite bad boy who deserves endless forgiveness, hope and love - much more likely that they had this attitude towards more disgusting creatures in their community.
    His poor mother might loved him no matter what but usually not many people love same person no matter what. If he, or someone from his relatives did it (and we can be almost sure about it, because of that hair), then at least some of them must knew much more than they ever said.
    Maybe that "much more" is not enough to be sure, and they might fear of blaming innocent person by sharing that info, but what scares me the most at this moment is that if everyone there said what they really think, knew and suspected, that it would became clear who did it (like in most cases).

    Almost 44 years... GLH if alive would be over 76, his aunts and uncles generation... about 95-100?
    Unless only teenagers knew something about it then it's getting a bit too late for deathbed confessions.
     
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2021
  5. MissLaura

    MissLaura Well-Known Member

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    I was under the impression those were definitely Denise's shoes, but doing some more digging I found the tidbit on the shoes you mentioned. A parent of one of the murdered girls apparently said that this was misreported by the newspapers and they belonged to someone from a past camp. No name on the shoes. The Reappearing Shoes and Socks

    So confusing because it's still reported that those were Denise's shoes with her name on them.
     
  6. Richard

    Richard Well-Known Member

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    Attached Files:

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  7. beubeubeu

    beubeubeu Well-Known Member

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    DNA never linked him to the murders. First attempts years ago made him a possible suspect but were inconclusive, later no connection was found.
     
  8. Richard

    Richard Well-Known Member

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  9. MissLaura

    MissLaura Well-Known Member

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    The most recent attempt failed because the sample was too degraded. There wasn't any DNA to test. The 1989 test is the one we have to go on.

    DNA tests fail in 1977 murders
     
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  10. beubeubeu

    beubeubeu Well-Known Member

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    Does that rootless hair still exist?
     
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  11. imstilla.grandma

    imstilla.grandma Believer of Miracles

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    I clicked over here and suddenly I feel like a young woman again with Mama waking me up while coming back home to visit with my first baby. She was my sisters and my Girl Scout leader for many years and was a counselor with us at this very same camp. She was still a member of the Council and was contacted very early in this horrific tragedy. She sat on my bed beside me with her head in her hands, tears streaming, trying to get the words out...
     
  12. Betty P

    Betty P Well-Known Member

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    It's possible they were Denise's shoes. Somewhere online, I've seen a photo of the bag on the steps. I've a strong hunch it happened, but it could be I haven't found reference to it in the book. As I mentioned, the narrative in the book skips around in time and it doesn't contain an index. It wasn't used as evidence in the trial, however.

    ETA: Just saw the link above explaining the real story on the shoes. Like other cold cases that have been analyzed over a long period of time, a lot of rumor and misinformation pops up. LOL, a few years ago I started a spreadsheet on this case to try to keep track of all the evidence and facts vs rumor. There is just SO MUCH false info on the internet about this case.
     
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2021
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  13. Betty P

    Betty P Well-Known Member

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    At least one of the prior DNA tests was done on an item of clothing from one of the victims. That test was done in the mid 2000's.
     
  14. Betty P

    Betty P Well-Known Member

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    There was a DNA test that linked him to the murders, done in the mid 2000's. I'm busy right now, but if you search back in these threads, you'll find links. IIRC if you had 7,700 NA men who were suspects in the Camp Scott Murders, the DNA evidence would have shown it was Hart.
     
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  15. Betty P

    Betty P Well-Known Member

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    Could be that someone did, could be that they were still so shocked and spooked by the murders and other stressful incidents that they feared more than they actually experienced.
    Also could be that someone, not neccessarily a murderer was curious about what's happening.

    I don't like this narrative. Why would someone wrote that? Because it was spooky and creepy, as a sick prank. Guess as good as why would murderer want to sign his remote hiding location? Maybe he did, maybe he didn't.
    It was hard to get there for reporters, not so hard for Weaver, and probably much easier for people frequently hanging out in the area.​

    I didn't knew that wasn't the same cave.

    So he admitted to the rapes but in the same time said that it was consensual and they pretty much enjoyed the idea of suffocating in the woods. Probably as much of confession as any rapist could give, especially in '77.

    Five months usually makes girl look pretty pregnant.
    Could be that he targeted them because they were pregnant and he just recently was kicked out by his (still? recently?) pregnant wife cause he was abusive towards her? He lost his "career" cause he got her pregnant, later he lost her and ability to see his child (by his own, disgusting actions but he might see it differently), could be that he raped and tried to kill them because he felt so much anger towards pregnant women?

    Two pregnant women reported what he did... female police officer reported what he tried to do...
    So I guess that there is a big chance that he was serial rapist but women who were alone, not police officers and attacked in their homes didn't reported that.
    Such a lovely, innocent times that raped women could be scared of being left by husband because of that rape. Most likely fear of not being believed was much stronger than now.

    Not sure where I was heading with this but... usually sex offenders don't mix attacks on adult women and small children, so three possibilities:
    1. he did attacked children before
    2. he didn't attacked gilrs at camp scott
    3. pretty recently something in his life made him hate little girls much more than women
    All three possible I guess.

    If so many people in the area were his relatives, then it could be quite likely that at least some of them had simmilar hairs, right?
    What does that mean it being soooo rare in general population if in his area it most likely wasn't?

    It speaks in favor of his possible innocence as well as of his guilt of this crime.
    Not very likely that he was their one and only favorite bad boy who deserves endless forgiveness, hope and love - much more likely that they had this attitude towards more disgusting creatures in their community.
    His poor mother might loved him no matter what but usually not many people love same person no matter what. If he, or someone from his relatives did it (and we can be almost sure about it, because of that hair), then at least some of them must knew much more than they ever said.
    Maybe that "much more" is not enough to be sure, and they might fear of blaming innocent person by sharing that info, but what scares me the most at this moment is that if everyone there said what they really think, knew and suspected, that it would became clear who did it (like in most cases).

    Almost 44 years... GLH if alive would be over 76, his aunts and uncles generation... about 95-100?
    Unless only teenagers knew something about it then it's getting a bit too late for deathbed confessions.[/QUOTE]


    • Yes, LE did think it was Hart who wrote on the wall in the other cave.
    • Rapists and killers do sometimes target victims of different age cohorts, depending on access and opportunity. Ted Bundy attacked and killed both grown women and a young girl.

    • JMO, it's possible GLH raped/sexually assaulted other victims. The two pregnant women came to light because they reported the attack and identified him by the license plate on his car. The apartment break in because she was LE. Women back then were very reluctant to report sexual assaults. If some prior victims recognized Hart after his arrest for the Girl Scout Murders, they probably didn't want to come forward due to all the publicity.
    • Someone Cry For the Children also mentions a report from a relative about Hart molesting her toddler-age child several years before the murders. She had briefly left the child alone in a room with Hart while he was visiting. She heard the child begin crying loudly. When she went back in the room, Hart was across the room. She took the child to the doctor, who confirmed there was an injury to the child's anal area. This information was reported to LE while they were investigating the case and looking for Hart.
    There really was enough evidence to conclude it was GLH. It was someone who lived nearby, was familiar with the area. The MO fit GLH's previous crimes, one in which he left 2 women for dead in a location just a mile or so away from the GS Camp.

    People learning about the case today might want to consider this wasn't a case of GLH being wrongly accused. Think of GLH's trial as being the 1970's version of the OJ Simpson trial. Maybe that helps put it into perspective.
     
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2021
  16. IzzyBlanche

    IzzyBlanche Well-Known Member

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    I've listened to the podcasts based on Tim Stanley's reporting in the Tulsa World, and one thing sticks in my mind: Michele Guse's father requesting that his daughter's name be spelled correctly.

    Michele, not Michelle.

    Is there a way to get the thread titles changed so that her name is spelled correctly?

    She deserves to have her name spelled correctly.
     
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2021
  17. IzzyBlanche

    IzzyBlanche Well-Known Member

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    I think I posted earlier that I was a teenager living in Oklahoma when this happened and I remember clear as day being at my relatives' house eating supper when the evening news came on with the story.

    I followed the trial as much as possible in those days with only print newspapers and no internet or twitter and stuff, but I don't recall having any strong reaction to the verdict as I have had with subsequent cases since then. Which is kind of strange for me, since I've been an opinionated beeoytch since I came out of the womb, as all my relatives would attest.

    Point being that perhaps the prosecution's case looked way weaker back then than it does to us now? Because I can't imagine that I wouldn't have been outraged at the time at the thought of such an obviously guilty man getting off for such appalling crimes against mere babies.
     
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  18. IzzyBlanche

    IzzyBlanche Well-Known Member

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    One last thought. Unless presented with incontrovertible evidence, which doesn't seem likely at this late date, I will never believe Hart acted alone.
     
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  19. Betty P

    Betty P Well-Known Member

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    At one point during the trial, defense attorneys let the jurors know that GLH was already serving two very long sentences for other crimes and would likely spend the rest of his life in prison. That gave the jurors an excuse to vote for acquittal, knowing he would remain in prison. At the time there was strong pressure from the NA community.
     
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  20. tiffkinsadder

    tiffkinsadder Well-Known Member

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    I'm sorry you all had to experience that. Scary and traumatic.
     
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