Discussion in 'Cold Cases' started by Richard, Nov 13, 2005.
Sorry you and so many other girls had to go through that back then. It must have been traumatic.
Thank you. It wasn't that traumatic for me insofar as I recall, because I was much older than the victims (14 just about to turn 15, and the gulf between Denise's age 10 and the age of 14 is very wide) and of course I had that adolescent sense of invincibility.
Also I had never attended summer camp when younger. Most of my friends were Camp Fire girls and had attended camp when they were younger, so I expect they were more traumatized then I, although I don't remember any specifics about whether they were.
I do remember having some lonely summer weeks when they were all at camp!
Done !! Thank you for letting us know IzzyBlanche.
The shoe print.
Outside of the shoe print, the evidence seems to point to one person.
But that person wore what size 11?
And the print found was what 9 1/2?
Is there anything that can reconcile this?
This is quite possibly one of the saddest and creepiest cases. What sticks out in my mind is the fact that Denise seemed to be targetted. Any theories on why this is?
At this point I've read at least few people mentioning that main narrative is very close to that in "Somebody's cry for the children" book while "Tent number 8" lacks focus on explaining how clear it is that GLH did it and offers more facts and trial details.
There were two shoeprints found, one who fit him and one 9 1/2.
Reportedly everyone who could accidentally step in blood and leeave it not only didn't have matching pattern on its sole.
And it was told that not one person from all of those who had their reason to be in the camp (like counsellors, kids, later LE enforcement and etc.) wore shoes in that size or it's male equivalent.
I personally doubt that but that doesn't matter.
We will never know. There is likely nothing more to learn.
She was Black. Being Black there was unusual and her dad was a cop. It might be just an example of connecting dot's which should not be connected.
It was investigated but went nowhere since nobody seem to have such insane grudge towards her dad and since they werent locals, and Denise's tent's assignments were unknown to anyone before... very far fetched.
But was it really that common and so not-strange, normal, understandable and reasonable for everyone that campers have no guards?
Is't it like the whole point of teaching kids how to be responsible in wilderness or unknown areas?
Was it really unheard of in US to do so? How that happened?
I'm not sure I'm answering your question, but the set-up was not abnormal at all. There are even camps that use these type of tents today. Why have your kids go to camp if they have to be watched and guarded 24/7?
I was under impression that all kinds of these camps exist for kids to have fun, experience nature and possibly make some new friends while learning how to be responsible and safe while camping.
How leaving so many tents without any guards can teach girls anything good?
I don't mean checking each tent every hour and walk around like a prison guard but would anyone call responsible and smart to send like 20 neighbourhoood kids, including their own to camp somewhere having just three teenage to twenty girls (who also have to take care of them during the day, so not being bionic they need to have some sleep) - let's say that area is pretty safe but dark, wooded and relatively close to highway and very not welcoming wild area.
I find it neither safe or educational. Just reckless.
Whole tent arrangements was outrageous but that's different story.
How to be safe while camping?
By taking precauscious and making smart decisions.
How to know what precauscious are needed? How to know what's smart and what not so much?
Thanks to the training and experience in relatively safe area. It should be like that and it wasn't. No thanks to cousellors, not even cause of ideas from people managing that particular camp, it wasn't well thought as a whole. If it's still like that it's insane for me.
So what? Kid may go scouting and camping yearly, since he or she is 8 till he or she is 15-16 or even older but have no idea that there might be a need to guard camping site in wilderness? To check out on people who are doing it for the first time? That they should not just go to sleep and ignore whatever they hear cause it's "probably nothing"?
It's just not the way I remember camping with people who were up to teach kids how to camp responsibly. I even asked my mother about this. She was born in the same year as Michelle, in different part of the World but she was a scout and she was going out camping in simmilar arrangements to that but found it insane that there was nobody assigned to just walk around through the camp at night and check if no kid is wandering around, sleepwalking or if everything seems to be fine. Not like a prison guard, but at least every two hours through each unit.
Snipped for focus
So not each tent every hour, but through each unit every two hours?
I honestly don't see much difference.
Also, it was the 1970s. Pre-internet. We lived happily unaware of child predators except for the occasional (read: once a decade or so) local example.
Girls in those days--as in the counselors--weren't taught to be self-reliant or to trust their own instincts. I guarantee you that if I had been a counselor that night and had heard a weird noise, I would have done everything in my power to convince myself it was nothing, or my imagination.
Looking back to that time through today's clearer lenses seems anachronistic to me.
It's easy to look back now and say Camp Scott should have had better security. And the adults in charge should have done a lot more. And they behaved abominably with regard to the victims' families after the fact.
But I also give them a little leeway on not knowing what they didn't know, that we all know now.
Also, her name is spelled Michele. Not Michelle.
Her father died being disturbed by the fact that her name was so often misspelled.
She, and he, deserve that respect.
Lori Farmer, Murdered 13 June 1977
My Daughter Was Killed at Girl Scout Camp: How an Okla. Mom Seeks Justice 40 Years After Slaying
Michele Guse, Murdered 13 June 1977
Photos of Michele Heather Guse - Find A Grave...
Doris Milner, Murdered 13 June 1977
Photos of Doris Denise Milner - Find A Grave...
Well, maybe that was me who mentioned it.
I do see difference between looking into each tent every hour and going through each unit every two hours checking out the area but prefferences may vary.
To be unaware of something a person has to not know about it, never experience anything like that and in general see everything as like that particular thing they are unaware of never existed.
Yes, looking back to any time through today or in fact any other time lenses isn't useful and does no justice to people from that time.
But what if these lenses are not from today?
I mentioned that I asked my mum and yeah, her experience may be unusual and not a well representation of how things were back then. Of course.
But since I learned about this case years ago I've read many books, usually older ones, written and published since late XIX till late '80, some journals, some biographies.
This story cames back to me each time when protagonists or people reminiscing past events are camping, setting tents in the wilderness or sleeping rough are wary of their surroundings and if it's more than few people they usually try to arrange things in a way that will let him guard their camp, tent, base or whatever.
How came that they - while living back then or being fictional characters invented back then, by authors with their times mindsets had that in their minds but people in general had no idea that wild animals and for example thieves existed?
Gossips were also not invented yet? People were illiterate? Had amnesia with every blink of an eye?
What internet have to do with anything? The biggest difference internet made is that people focused more or random stuff like watching movies, scrolling pictures of random cats, listening to music and quarelling about politics with some anonymous people which they won't ever met in their lifetime.
Weren't people BIG into local gossip back then? Way bigger than they are now? Wasn't that one of their interests while interactng with others and entertaining themselves daily? Or were they too naive and innocent to do that despite of World being much darker and crueler back then?
Sorry that I'm writing this much now, it's not as much about your post (even thou I'm somewhat replying to it) as just about my thoughts.
Yeah... kids, counsellors, people who were managing the camp...
I have no issue imagining and understanding how they all tried their best and found themselves hopeless in aftermath of this tragedy that was totally unforseen to them.
Kids were kids, counsellors were just bit older kids, and people who were managing the camp were likely just doing their job. What else they could do? Employ some security guards with their pocket money? Take a brief look at Kiowa and rearrange tents by pulling fundaments off the ground with their bare hands to move them in more reasonable positions?
It's not where I was aiming with that.
Adults in charge should have done some things differently.
Just not those adults who were in charge of Camp Scott - because after taking that easy look back it's quite easy to see that they would likely need some supernatural skills to stop this killer.
I also doubt that they were really in charge of the drill and able to change it even if any of them thought "hey, that's not right, we should arrange some more guardind with each unit right now!" since it usually isn't with power of people who work on the spot.
Are we assuming that those who were really in charge with how things work in scout camps were so blissfully unaware of all the burglaries, trespassings, accidents, attacks and wildlife to work on more responsible arrangements, appropriate to a goal which should be to teach kids how to act while spending time outdoors?
Were boy scout camps different?
With activities and safety precauscious intended to offer not only short-term entertainment but also valuable experience for those who actually could and likely will be hiking and camping in wilderness in their future?
Thinking of Denise, Michele, and Lori today.
May peace be upon them.
I am confident that each of them would have made great contributions to the state of the world even if only by being kind, as they all were reported to have been.
Investigators believe some in area may have information about crime
CRIME REWIND: Officials say Girl Scout murder case unsolved
According to now-retired Cherokee County Investigator Jack Goss, a man named Pete Duffield called him Aug. 3, 1977, and claimed his sons, Wesley and Jessie Darryl, had killed Jimmy Dean Bryan, and that his body could be found at Eldon. Goss and then-Tahlequah Police Department Detective Darrell Scott, who later became Cherokee County sheriff, arrested Wesley the day Bryan's body was discovered. Wesley claimed Bryan had stolen marijuana from him, but then said he stole $50,000 from him, so he killed him.
During a taped interview made Dec. 4, 1990, a relative of Bryan's, Johnny Rotramel, alleged he, the Duffields, and Jimmy and Bobby Bryan were at Baron Fork Creek a few weeks after the Girl Scout murders. Rotramel told authorities the Duffield brothers had asked him who he thought killed the Girl Scouts. He said the Duffield brothers told him Gene Leroy Hart didn’t do it, but claimed they knew who did.
Shortly afterward, Jimmy Bryan told family members the Duffield brothers were upset with him because he wanted speak with authorities. Jimmy disappeared, and the brothers' father, Pete Duffield, eventually called Goss to tell him where Jimmy's body was. Pete shot himself a few hours later.
“From an investigator's standpoint, what’s significant about that is, as near as we can tell, [Rotramel] had absolutely no reason to make that up,” said the source who has been close to the investigation for over 40 years. “That’s the first thing I saw that made me think there’s a story out here somewhere, and Jack and I started working on the case then.”
more at link
Also, her name is spelled Michele. Not Michelle.
Her father died being disturbed by the fact that her name was so often misspelled.
She, and he, deserve that respect.[/QUOTE]
Are you really taking someone to task over an alternate spelling of someone's name, by insinuating that by using the common spelling is an act of disrespect?
I think you owe this person an apology.
There is absolutely no need for that. Wasn't my or, I believe anyone else's intention to disrespect Michele's memory by spelling her name incorrectly. My phone keeps switching it into common spelling so such mistake can come quite easily, but her name is Michele and I wish that I'd pay more attention to it and check just to be sure.
I still hope for some kind of miracle that would help to solve this case.
JMO, the case was solved.
If there's any new information, I hope they find it while the parties are still living. I'm convinced from the DNA evidence, his past sex and burglary crimes and other evidence that Gene Leroy Hart murdered the girls. He used some items stolen from the neighboring farm that he burglarized. H was acquitted by a jury that was threatened daily by protestors and who were told by the defense attorney that, regardless of the verdict, GLH would still spend his life behind bars for his previous violent crimes and escapes.
JMO, there's still a possibility that he had help from someone else who was local to the area.
Camp Scott was located in such a remote area, with the only vehicle access via a remote country road. All other access to the camp was via a long hike across the private property of people who lived there. Most of the camp perimeter was fenced and the gate to the only road into the camp was locked. The area around the entrance and inside the camp was checked by the overseer that night and no unknown vehicles were seen.
Scent dogs indicated the killer came into the camp on foot, through a field at the bottom border of the camp. The campsite was targeted as it was closest to the entry point from the field. JMO, only locals who had previously burglarized the empty camp would be familiar with that spot.