OK OK - Girl Scout Murders, Lori Farmer, 8, Michelle Guse, 9, Doris Milner, 10, 1977

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I continued to read last night and learned much more, which most of you covered here including the size of the tent and the OSBI position. I read that 3 of the 4-5 samples processed for DNA by my favorite group at the University of Texas came back to Hart. The legal definition of this is "inconclusive." One DNA sample was clearly from one of the children in terms of a major contribution, so it was difficult to get the Male contributor DNA out of the mix. It is also clear there was more than one assailant because of the multiple shoe prints-Hart's shoe size was not reflected in the casts-so I would be willing to go for the possible 3 person assailant theory...

So I have to ask myself if one of the girls was targeted and the other two were, God forgive me, collateral damage? Hart was not in the tent, perhaps, the other two were killing the two children, then the three were taken out 100-150 yards away into the woods where the last innocent was attacked and killed...at least by two of the assailants? The only reason I think that is because she had two items around her neck...I read that the babies in the sleeping bags were tied in a fetal position. Were they SA as well?? I read stories that stated they were and stories that did not mention it.
IMO, you're right - Hart plus another assailant. My father was a business associate with a reporter who covered this case and had a lot of inside information. The reporter told him the same thing - Hart plus at least one other assailant. Hart didn't act alone.
 
Hart was found not guilty of the crimes. I and many others think Gene Leroy Hart was framed.
 
IMO, you're right - Hart plus another assailant. My father was a business associate with a reporter who covered this case and had a lot of inside information. The reporter told him the same thing - Hart plus at least one other assailant. Hart didn't act alone.

Interesting about the reporter's POV. I've always suspected the same, after reading the book and following the news of DNA test results - Hart and possibly someone else.

Here's a link to the 1989 news article about the results of the FBI test results

http://newsok.com/article/2287953

Two separate sources, both with knowledge of the confidential tests, said Hart's body fluids matched three probes of DNA evidence obtained at the crime scene, and two other tests were inconclusive. The sources asked not to be identified.

One person in 7,700 American Indians would match the crime scene sample as Hart did, The Oklahoman was told. Hart was a Cherokee Indian.

"If all five probes had matched it would have been one in 3 billion," one source said. "With three of five matching it is one in 7,700. That means if you got tests from 7,700 American Indians one of them should match, which is the reason why the test is not conclusive."

The autopsies of all three girls revealed sexual assault.

Hart's own autopsy revealed his vasectomy failed and that he was capable of producing sperm.
 
I haven't decided yet whether I think Hart was innocent, I will have to read more.
 
Sorry, kinda new here. Just wanted to share my thoughts.

I strongly believe this was an inside job as well. I've been to girl scout camp before, I understand how those types of camps are set up. Whoever perpetrated these crimes had to have been familiar with how they were set up and how many campers were in each tent. That would have been difficult for an outsider to know. I also believe there was more than one person involved, one of those most likely being a female. It is incredibly difficult to subdue three girls at the same time without at least one trying to get away. Also believe the note threatening the campers the day before the camp opened was not a prank. The killers were trying to test out the waters, so to speak.

Here is a video that explains what I mean (this topic is further along in the video - the exact spot is in the video description):

https://youtu.be/JsulAguC6HI
 
Sorry, kinda new here. Just wanted to share my thoughts.

I strongly believe this was an inside job as well. I've been to girl scout camp before, I understand how those types of camps are set up. Whoever perpetrated these crimes had to have been familiar with how they were set up and how many campers were in each tent. That would have been difficult for an outsider to know. I also believe there was more than one person involved, one of those most likely being a female. It is incredibly difficult to subdue three girls at the same time without at least one trying to get away. Also believe the note threatening the campers the day before the camp opened was not a prank. The killers were trying to test out the waters, so to speak.

Here is a video that explains what I mean (this topic is further along in the video - the exact spot is in the video description):

https://youtu.be/JsulAguC6HI

I do not believe it was an "inside job". Can you elaborate on who would be involved if it were? The teenage girls working as camp counselors? Members of the Magic Empire Council? The groundskeeper? The nurse? None of that makes sense to me.

If you look at a map of how Camp Scott was laid out, you can see that the Kiowa unit tents were within eyeshot of each other, except for tent #7 (the murder tent). It kind of sits the farthest away and is very close to the thick woods. It was the easiest tent for someone to sneak into.

Also, Camp Scott wasn't difficult for an outsider to know. People lived close to the camp site. People also walked the campsite in the offseason...many folks knew the lay of the land at the camp. It wasn't hard to navigate except for the thick trees and brush surrounding it.

I tend to believe there were two people. I don't know who they were, or even if one was Gene Hart. But nothing tells me it was an inside job.
 
Why do you think he was found not guilty? Are you aware of his status as a "hero" in that area?
 
I do not believe it was an "inside job". Can you elaborate on who would be involved if it were? The teenage girls working as camp counselors? Members of the Magic Empire Council? The groundskeeper? The nurse? None of that makes sense to me.

If you look at a map of how Camp Scott was laid out, you can see that the Kiowa unit tents were within eyeshot of each other, except for tent #7 (the murder tent). It kind of sits the farthest away and is very close to the thick woods. It was the easiest tent for someone to sneak into.

Also, Camp Scott wasn't difficult for an outsider to know. People lived close to the camp site. People also walked the campsite in the offseason...many folks knew the lay of the land at the camp. It wasn't hard to navigate except for the thick trees and brush surrounding it.

I tend to believe there were two people. I don't know who they were, or even if one was Gene Hart. But nothing tells me it was an inside job.

This crime absolutely could have been done by staff members. I don't really understand why that sounds so outrageous.

Awhile before the camp opened up, a tent was ransacked and there was a note left behind saying that three campers would be killed. At the time, it was dismissed as a prank and the note was thrown out. To have that threat come to fruition seems like more than just mere coincidence.

I have looked at map of the Camp Scott, and they do look close together. But in reality, the tents, separate camps and buildings have a lot of brush and wooded areas between them. When you're walking on the paths, you're not going to see much of anything until you are close to the buildings. It's even worse when there are no walkways. Now, I don't doubt there were a lot people not affliated with the camp that were familiar with the place. I just get the feeling that whoever did this had a more intimate knowledge of the camp than the average person. Did Hart? Sounds like it, but my hunch is that other people besides him were involved.
 
Why do you think he was found not guilty? Are you aware of his status as a "hero" in that area?
I think he was found not guilty because the state did not prove his guilt.

What are you trying to say?

There is innuendo throughout this thread that Natives would not convict "one of their own" as they would rather the killer(s) of three girls go free.

That comes dangerously close to being something ugly.
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This crime absolutely could have been done by staff members. I don't really understand why that sounds so outrageous.

Awhile before the camp opened up, a tent was ransacked and there was a note left behind saying that three campers would be killed. At the time, it was dismissed as a prank and the note was thrown out. To have that threat come to fruition seems like more than just mere coincidence.

I have looked at map of the Camp Scott, and they do look close together. But in reality, the tents, separate camps and buildings have a lot of brush and wooded areas between them. When you're walking on the paths, you're not going to see much of anything until you are close to the buildings. It's even worse when there are no walkways. Now, I don't doubt there were a lot people not affliated with the camp that were familiar with the place. I just get the feeling that whoever did this had a more intimate knowledge of the camp than the average person. Did Hart? Sounds like it, but my hunch is that other people besides him were involved.

So which staff members do you think were capable of pulling off such a horror? There weren't that many there that night. And I am familiar with Camp Scott. I camped there as a 9 year old girl scout.
 
Why do you think he was found not guilty? Are you aware of his status as a "hero" in that area?

I also believe the state didn't prove his guilt. Hart had a couple of great lawyers. Sperm was presented as evidence, and the jury was told Hart had had a vasectomy.
His fingerprint did not match the fingerprint on the flashlight. Of course, after his death it was discovered that his vasectomy was a failure.

I am a Cherokee living in NE Oklahoma. Hart wasn't a hero in any sense except his athleticism. Maybe someone referred to him as a football hero in high school and the press picked up on that. He did nothing else to be a hero. He got married right after high school and had a son. Most of his relatives, especially his mother strongly believed he was innocent.
 
Sorry, kinda new here. Just wanted to share my thoughts.

I strongly believe this was an inside job as well. I've been to girl scout camp before, I understand how those types of camps are set up. Whoever perpetrated these crimes had to have been familiar with how they were set up and how many campers were in each tent. That would have been difficult for an outsider to know. I also believe there was more than one person involved, one of those most likely being a female. It is incredibly difficult to subdue three girls at the same time without at least one trying to get away. Also believe the note threatening the campers the day before the camp opened was not a prank. The killers were trying to test out the waters, so to speak.

Here is a video that explains what I mean (this topic is further along in the video - the exact spot is in the video description):

https://youtu.be/JsulAguC6HI

Welcome to WS, and thank you for that Youtube link - the other cases in that video intrigue me, will have to read more about them.

I think I mentioned earlier back a few posts, it would help if the GS Council records for Camp Scott (at least a year's worth before these murders happened) were publicly known. Such as financial issues with that particular camp. It can only be wondered. Hopefully these murders will be solved one day and soon.
 
Also - isn't there a Boy Scout camp not far from Camp Scott. I wonder if they knew anything about the situation with the GS camp prior to these murders taking place.
 
I don't think it is ugly to think that a group of people who had been oppressed for generations, might have been more likely to believe that one of their own was being framed by the very legal system that had been used against them. Within any group of people it is always easier to imagine that the "other" is a monster. Combine the tendency to look for monsters outside of our own group with the experience the Cherokee people had with the U.S. justice system, and it is not hard to see why they could easily view Hart as the victim of a conspiracy.
 
Also - isn't there a Boy Scout camp not far from Camp Scott. I wonder if they knew anything about the situation with the GS camp prior to these murders taking place.

Yes, Camp Garland was 1/4 mile away from Camp Scott. I really don't know if they knew about the note, I've never seen or heard any comment from any Camp Garland reps.
 
I don't think it is ugly to think that a group of people who had been oppressed for generations, might have been more likely to believe that one of their own was being framed by the very legal system that had been used against them. Within any group of people it is always easier to imagine that the "other" is a monster. Combine the tendency to look for monsters outside of our own group with the experience the Cherokee people had with the U.S. justice system, and it is not hard to see why they could easily view Hart as the victim of a conspiracy.

Hart had an all-white jury, six men and six women. There wasn't a chance they would let a child killer go because he was Cherokee. He did have a large family who supported him and many friends as well, who took up a collection for his defense.
 
I don't think it is ugly to think that a group of people who had been oppressed for generations, might have been more likely to believe that one of their own was being framed by the very legal system that had been used against them. Within any group of people it is always easier to imagine that the "other" is a monster. Combine the tendency to look for monsters outside of our own group with the experience the Cherokee people had with the U.S. justice system, and it is not hard to see why they could easily view Hart as the victim of a conspiracy.
I see what you're saying, but it still puts the onus on the Cherokee.

I've got blood but am substantially European, and since I read of GLH's arrest in the Tulsa World the next day, immediately had doubts about his guilt in this matter, full-knowing Hart was an escaped rapist.

Did the State try to frame a guilty man in the Girl Scout murders? Maybe. But they tried to frame him nevertheless. Regardless, Hart was found not guilty in the matter. And I believe he was not guilty in this matter.

It flirts with paternalism to think that the Cherokee closed ranks because they are less able to figure things out, due to a past at the hands of whites.
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So which staff members do you think were capable of pulling off such a horror? There weren't that many there that night. And I am familiar with Camp Scott. I camped there as a 9 year old girl scout.

That's the thing - I don't know. I just think it's worth looking into. It could have been a crime of opportunity, but everything I've read suggests a familiarity with the grounds and camp operations that a mere stranger wouldn't have.
 
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