OK OK - Molly Miller, 17, & Colt Haynes, 21, Wilson, 7 July 2013 - #1

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windstorm

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Pretty quiet on this thread today. I guess we're all still absorbing the info in last night's news report.

I've run out of clues to sleuth and am pretty much at a standstill on this case until a suspect is named or charged so we can high-five all around and unleash the hounds on him. And all of my attention has been focused on finding Colt and Molly the last few weeks, so I'm kind of feeling at loose ends right now.

Just started looking into the Nicole Waller case; it's a pretty twisty one up in Montana. If any of you have any other pet cases you'd like some help on, just let me know. Maybe I can make you a map, lol.

I've been on the Erica Parson's case as well as this one. Talk about twists and turns! It's kind of at a standstill, too, though. I've got a couple UIDs I'm working on as well. One I just put on here the other day but haven't had time to sleuth it much.
 

McSpy

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Am pondering what a new lead might mean. That statement came from the Wilson PD and not the OHP, so it seems more likely to be somebody talking rather than forensic evidence.

And, as a native Oklahoman, I have to admit that I had no idea the Oklahoma Highway Patrol did anything other than patrol the highways. This is the first time I've heard of the OHP being involved in this type of investigation, and it seemed so odd that I had to go to their website to see what kind of cases might fall under their jurisdiction. Turns out they do have an investigations division and hurray for that because the OSBI is not noted for stellar performance, as you might have guessed by the agent collecting potential DNA evidence in a Mountain Dew can.

PMF said, "I think they have been able to confirm that she is deceased." Could it be there was some usable forensic evidence in that Mountain Dew can after all? DNA? Maybe a tooth or bone fragment? Or something in the car that indicated a non-survivable injury? Because last I heard, the OHP had taken the car for further testing, and then everybody clammed up.

Hatfield, the mobile home was no longer there by April 2012 when the satellite image was taken. Oh, I just remembered you don't have FB so you can't see what was described. PMF wrote that if you go to Google Earth there is a clearly visible circle drive at the end of Long Hollow where there is a travel trailer. Behind that trailer there is a gate that they would have had to stop and open, so if the Love County deputy had continued pursuit, he would have caught the driver, Colt, and Molly right there, but instead the deputy turned around and left.

That particular corner could be described as the end of Long Hollow because that is where the the asphalt or gravel (it's hard to tell) part of the road ends, and straight ahead beyond that is only a dirt track. Turning to the west at that corner looks like it would take you to a gate as PMF described, and then on to the area where I believe the car was eventually found. And, as I said earlier, the former site of a mobile home would make sense as the current site of a travel trailer that someone might be living in because the utilities would already be in place to hook up to it. The travel trailer is not burned, as far as I know.

Bolded by me

Where did they find this mountain dew can? In the car? Near the pit? TIA
 

OkieGranny

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Where did they find this mountain dew can? In the car? Near the pit? TIA

That is a good question. I don't believe anyone ever said. Always just assumed it was a can the agent brought with him and I figured the only DNA they'd find in the sample would be his from the backwash when he drank out of it.

Did a quick search on OFMM to see if there's an answer. Didn't find one, but did find a comment by a cousin saying the hole was in a creek bed. Sounds like one of those wet-weather creeks that would've been dry at the time.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/438762539575189/permalink/443680545750055/
 

k4kathy

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Thanks, k4kathy! I do remember reading that post now. Feeling silly for not looking back through this very thread.

Been looking high and low for specific info about the wreck, and this is the only thing I've been able to find:

http://newsok.com/oklahoma-girls-mysterious-disappearance-prompts-massive-search/article/3882613



Not much to go on, but could this have been enough impact to deploy the airbags? Depends on how sturdy the fence was, I guess. And the small trees. On this type of rural acreage, barbed wire fencing is very common because it's the most economical choice. Sometimes you'll see hog panels strung between the same type of metal posts that barbed wire is strung on, depending on what you want to keep in (or out).

I wonder if it was a gate and not a fence the car went through? If so, gates are generally built more solidly than the fence itself. A good solid pipe rail gate is easy to swing open and shut when you need to drive through it and will last a long time with minimal maintenance. The reason I'm wondering is because of the gate that's supposed to be at the end of Long Hollow Road, and also because it's hard to see $14,000 worth of damage to the car if it just ran through barbed wire and some saplings.

The angle of impact would be a factor too, I suppose, whether the car hit whatever it hit head-on or at an angle. Or could the car have skidded sideways through the fence? Because that could make the side-impact airbags deploy, and Molly's DNA might be on one of them if she was riding in the back seat.

Honestly, I know nothing about what it takes for an airbag to deploy and am hoping some who does will come along and discuss the possibilities with us.

McSpy, your theory is on my shortlist as well. If [the driver] did flee the scene, leaving Colt and Molly to fend for themselves and they died as a result, he's still just as responsible, IMO.

I think it could be enough impact, but just don't know for sure. The smaller, lighter weight vehicle will deploy airbags on less impact, but the impact would definitely need to be a front hit. I do know that airbags deploying often do enough interior damage to total a vehicle. I have had this experience before. The outside of the car looked very grazed, but the airbags just destroyed the dash like you wouldn't believe. I'll try and find pictures. Unbelievable. And the car was entirely drivable. My experience was back in 2000, vehicle was a 97 cougar, insurance totaled out $8700 back then!
 

k4kathy

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I agree, it makes no sense. Colt was already injured by 3am according to the friends who went looking for him. Molly's call at 6am, no mention of injury. Molly's call at 9:30am, alone and crying. Something significant must have happened between 6 and 9:30.

I think you are right on the money
 

k4kathy

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I've broken quite a few bones over the years (arm, leg, hand, finger . . ). Fortunately, all of them didn't break the skin, but both my broken leg and arm (dislocated shoulder too) poked my skin out. In other words, the broken bone had stretched the inside out, so it looked like a big lump. There was no break in the skin. So, I'm thinking there is a possibility Colt only had the lump sticking out —not that bone broke through skin.

I hope I worded this so it makes sense . .

I've seen many of closed fractures become open (compound) fractures from movement. A broken bone is sharp. Think about the location of the broken bone and how much tissue covers the area of that broken bone. The ankle, above the ankle and shin don't have that much flesh to penetrate to break through the skin.
 

k4kathy

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Now wouldn't Molly have described Colts condition when she communicated/texted/called whoever or said something about the driver, or gave a rundown on what happened / how she ended up in the situation to whom ever she communicated with?
 

k4kathy

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If you use the search box and the right keywords, it's still possible to unearth some interesting tidbits on OFMM. In the earliest posts, the family was giving many more details than they are now. This one's about the fiery hole:

https://www.facebook.com/groups/438762539575189/permalink/439903702794406/

There's a timeline of the fire down in the comments, when it started and the activity that ensued over the next two weeks. Says the hole was in a field not far from where the car was found.

I'm reading where a OSBI agent/ forensic tech used half of a MT dew can to extract samples from a possible crime scene. The integrity of the case depends on the samples retrieved from a crime scene. An empty pop can wound most likely contain someone else's DNA for starters.Secondly, please understand how unethical this practice would be. OSBI/forensic's have sterile devices to retrieve and store specimans. If this is what really happened, the agent?tech needs to be terminated immediately and then the family needs to file charges for obstruction of justice.
 

Hatfield

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Pretty quiet on this thread today. I guess we're all still absorbing the info in last night's news report.

I've run out of clues to sleuth and am pretty much at a standstill on this case until a suspect is named or charged so we can high-five all around and unleash the hounds on him. And all of my attention has been focused on finding Colt and Molly the last few weeks, so I'm kind of feeling at loose ends right now.

Just started looking into the Nicole Waller case; it's a pretty twisty one up in Montana. If any of you have any other pet cases you'd like some help on, just let me know. Maybe I can make you a map, lol.

I feel the same way OkieGranny. Its a hopeless feeling when it seems we cant do much else until more information comes to light.

But I am thankful and amazed at how much you and others helped us all to understand pretty much what went down up to that early morning.
I think we have a pretty good idea now up to that early morning. So thanks to everyone for getting us this far.

The missing link is what happened after those last few calls. I think most of us are convinced there is someone that knows what happened to them and they are not talking. Im holding out hope the new investigators they are working with know how to get to the truth soon. Hopefully, it wont be too much longer before answers are given.
 

Hatfield

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Now wouldn't Molly have described Colts condition when she communicated/texted/called whoever or said something about the driver, or gave a rundown on what happened / how she ended up in the situation to whom ever she communicated with?

Thats one of the big mysteries.

Her phone was most likely dying and she may have not wanted to give a huge story. Or I have always wondered if the other person cut her short because he had to go to work. He indicated something like...."I wouldnt have cut her short like that if I didnt have to go to work" (something like that). So I wonder if he maybe didnt even give her a chance before he hung up on her.

The phone dying would explain why she didnt call others or finally call 911 again. It is just odd about the phone calls. The phone dying seems to make the most sense or they would have ended up getting a hold of someone eventually.
I am also wondering too if they just left the phone on all night and didnt realize how important it would be to save battery life. At first, they probably didnt realize how serious their situation was. It probably only turned to panic the next morning when it got real hot and they realized this is really serious situation. If they had phone on all night long, it most likely lost all battery life. This would help explain the short calls the next morning.

Cell Phone reception may have contributed to the phone dying as they may have left it on too long before they got a signal. Depending on which service they used, they may have not gotten good reception in the area.

My understanding is certain cell towers dont cover certain phone services. That has been my experience as I used to have 1 service which was really bad and when I switched, I now get great signals in same spot. That proved to me that just because a cell tower is there, it doesnt mean you will get a signal if you dont have the right service carrier. Maybe that has changed, but that was my experience with a certain carrier. I was so glad to drop them...LOL

Cell reception got me to thinking they may have also tried walking to a highest point. Another spot to possibly search if they dont get others to talk.
 

OkieGranny

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I'm reading where a OSBI agent/ forensic tech used half of a MT dew can to extract samples from a possible crime scene. The integrity of the case depends on the samples retrieved from a crime scene. An empty pop can wound most likely contain someone else's DNA for starters.Secondly, please understand how unethical this practice would be. OSBI/forensic's have sterile devices to retrieve and store specimans. If this is what really happened, the agent?tech needs to be terminated immediately and then the family needs to file charges for obstruction of justice.

Oh, I know! It's just astounding. And this agent's not even a rookie, been on the job over 25 years. And that may be the problem, an old-school guy doing things the old-school way.

Definitely needs to face some serious consequences if he really did this. Sloppy forensic technique gets evidence thrown out of court and lets killers walk free.
 

wfgodot

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Biting my tongue on all things OK LE (and smh too). "Hoping for best."
 

OkieGranny

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Thats one of the big mysteries.

Her phone was most likely dying and she may have not wanted to give a huge story. Or I have always wondered if the other person cut her short because he had to go to work. He indicated something like...."I wouldnt have cut her short like that if I didnt have to go to work" (something like that). So I wonder if he maybe didnt even give her a chance before he hung up on her.

The phone dying would explain why she didnt call others or finally call 911 again. It is just odd about the phone calls. The phone dying seems to make the most sense or they would have ended up getting a hold of someone eventually.
I am also wondering too if they just left the phone on all night and didnt realize how important it would be to save battery life. At first, they probably didnt realize how serious their situation was. It probably only turned to panic the next morning when it got real hot and they realized this is really serious situation. If they had phone on all night long, it most likely lost all battery life. This would help explain the short calls the next morning.

Cell Phone reception may have contributed to the phone dying as they may have left it on too long before they got a signal. Depending on which service they used, they may have not gotten good reception in the area.

My understanding is certain cell towers dont cover certain phone services. That has been my experience as I used to have 1 service which was really bad and when I switched, I now get great signals in same spot. That proved to me that just because a cell tower is there, it doesnt mean you will get a signal if you dont have the right service carrier. Maybe that has changed, but that was my experience with a certain carrier. I was so glad to drop them...LOL

Cell reception got me to thinking they may have also tried walking to a highest point. Another spot to possibly search if they dont get others to talk.

I'm pretty sure that every person whose number showed up on Colt's and Molly's phone records has been interviewed, and I'm hoping they've been interviewed multiple times, by Love County SO, by Wilson PD, by the OSBI, and by OHP, because then all those different statements can be compared to make sure they match up. And perhaps some important detail might emerge in one interview that wasn't mentioned in others.

Surely the OHP at least has obtained the driver's phone records as well. It would be very interesting to know what activity they show. Hopefully, it will all come out soon.

You could be right about cell reception in that area. It may have been spotty due to the hilly terrain or other factors.

Colt seemed to have a special bond with one sister in particular and I've often wondered why he didn't call her. After listening to the interview, I think she would have dropped everything and immediately rushed to his aid if she'd had any idea of the situation he was in, and she would not have left until she found him. I wonder if Colt knew how much trouble he was in. Not just trouble with the law, not busted leg trouble, but in real trouble, and he didn't want to risk putting his sister's life in danger along with his own. Of course, I don't know that to be the case. It's just a feeling I've had.
 

McSpy

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I'm pretty sure that every person whose number showed up on Colt's and Molly's phone records has been interviewed, and I'm hoping they've been interviewed multiple times, by Love County SO, by Wilson PD, by the OSBI, and by OHP, because then all those different statements can be compared to make sure they match up. And perhaps some important detail might emerge in one interview that wasn't mentioned in others.

Surely the OHP at least has obtained the driver's phone records as well. It would be very interesting to know what activity they show. Hopefully, it will all come out soon.

You could be right about cell reception in that area. It may have been spotty due to the hilly terrain or other factors.

Colt seemed to have a special bond with one sister in particular and I've often wondered why he didn't call her. After listening to the interview, I think she would have dropped everything and immediately rushed to his aid if she'd had any idea of the situation he was in, and she would not have left until she found him. I wonder if Colt knew how much trouble he was in. Not just trouble with the law, not busted leg trouble, but in real trouble, and he didn't want to risk putting his sister's life in danger along with his own. Of course, I don't know that to be the case. It's just a feeling I've had.

oh, I see. The officer used the soda can to bring material from the fire pit to the lab. Yeah, that mountain dew can could be contaminated. They should bring sterile plastic containers, zip lock bags or even a paper bag if the material was dry for that kind of collection of potential evidence. hmmm, I wonder if he was able to get into the pit's bottom to collect the material. Maybe he wasn't interested in DNA? Perhaps, he wanted to see if there was any surviving bone material mixed in the ashes and soil.
 

McSpy

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I just read that it was a hole (the fire pit) in a creek bed. This is where the officer took a sample. I wasn't aware that the pit was in a creek bed. Apparently, I have to read things more than once, so I don't miss anything. Maybe the officer saw something worth collecting, so he improvised (soda can). So far, I think he was collecting the material to see if there is bone mixed in with the ash and soil. It doesn't make sense to collect anything for DNA, in my opinion. The marrow would have been destroyed. Sometimes teeth survive, but I suspect the tissue material in the tooth would have been cooked in a fire which burned for days.

JMO
 

McSpy

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I've seen many of closed fractures become open (compound) fractures from movement. A broken bone is sharp. Think about the location of the broken bone and how much tissue covers the area of that broken bone. The ankle, above the ankle and shin don't have that much flesh to penetrate to break through the skin.

You're right. My experience is limited anyway. Probably the big difference is that I got medical attention immediately after the accidents occurred. I was just suggesting Colt's broken ankle may not have been protruding through the skin with just going by his description over the phone. A "bone sticking out" could mean it was poking out (not where it is suppose to be), but not necessarily through the skin. It was just a possibility, because I had described it that way too. Otherwise, infection was going to get him if he didn't get medical attention, IMO. If I was Molly, I would have called 911 in that scenario and I wouldn't care what he had to say.
 

OkieGranny

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oh, I see. The officer used the soda can to bring material from the fire pit to the lab. Yeah, that mountain dew can could be contaminated. They should bring sterile plastic containers, zip lock bags or even a paper bag if the material was dry for that kind of collection of potential evidence. hmmm, I wonder if he was able to get into the pit's bottom to collect the material. Maybe he wasn't interested in DNA? Perhaps, he wanted to see if there was any surviving bone material mixed in the ashes and soil.

The agent apparently tied the can to a metal pole and scooped up a sample from the bottom of the hole. He may have then dumped the sample into a more appropriate container before taking it to the lab. I have no idea, but the potential contamination is still a problem.

Don't know if DNA testing would be completed yet, but there may have been bone fragments or teeth in the sample, which would be pretty definite proof that someone was burned in that hole. I do agree that after two weeks in a fire, there's no guarantee any DNA could be found in the remains.

According various comments by family members, the car was found in a pasture or field up on that ridge and the hole was not far away, and that's all I can remember off the top of my head. Just saw the comment about the creek bed this morning, so the picture forming in my mind is a dry creek bed adjacent to or near the clearing where the car was located. Not necessarily the large creek at the bottom of the hillside, maybe a smaller dry creek that channels water down the slope to the larger creek when it rains. Cannot say for sure.
 

McSpy

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I'm reading where a OSBI agent/ forensic tech used half of a MT dew can to extract samples from a possible crime scene. The integrity of the case depends on the samples retrieved from a crime scene. An empty pop can wound most likely contain someone else's DNA for starters.Secondly, please understand how unethical this practice would be. OSBI/forensic's have sterile devices to retrieve and store specimans. If this is what really happened, the agent?tech needs to be terminated immediately and then the family needs to file charges for obstruction of justice.

Burying the hole bothers me the most. Yet, maybe it preserves the material from being washed away in the next batch of rains. They can always dig up the hole again to get the material.

Don't have any idea if this was his thinking at the time . . .
 

OkieGranny

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Burying the hole bothers me the most. Yet, maybe it preserves the material from being washed away in the next batch of rains. They can always dig up the hole again to get the material.

Don't have any idea if this was his thinking at the time . . .

Yeah, it did occur to me that maybe his intention was to preserve any evidence, in case somebody might come back and try to clean out the hole. Otherwise, why bother? If that turns out to be the case, I'll give him credit for that.
 

windstorm

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Somebody posted on OFMM that they seen the Wilson PD search and rescue boat out today. They are not disclosing location and have no idea if it's related.
 
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