OK OK - Rev. Carol Daniels, 61, Anadarko, 23 Aug 2009

SeriouslySearching

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never ever, ever take the confessions of a psychopathic serial killer at his word. I thought it very interesting that the FBI agents confused the words of IK as being truthful.. An example is when IK acted as though he did not know Ted Bundy's birthplace was Burlington, VT., where he abducted/murdered the Curriers. IK looked up to Bundy, and was intelligent, meticulous, and confident. IK would have known this commonly known bit of trivia, imo...
Imo, the timeline released by the FBI is incomplete at best. IK was a master at deception and played them like a fiddle for decades and continues to do so, imo...
I agree the FBI appeared to think he was truthful and I could not imagine taking him at his word (I would like to believe they are much smarter than he was). IK was leading them by giving them tidbits. There was so much he left out and the rest just lies. He talked almost in taunting riddles. Of course, he knew about Bundy.

I have been cautious not to attribute any cold cases to IK, but I have given Pastor Daniel's case much thought. IK's MO fits here. When you mentioned about the tornadoes and the possibility it led him to that area, it made sense.

By the way, the eyewitness was Richardson instead of Robertson. I buy his story.

http://www.newson6.com/story/11044547/man-claims-he-saw-murder-suspect-fleeing-anadarko-church
 

Foxfire

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I agree the FBI appeared to think he was truthful and I could not imagine taking him at his word (I would like to believe they are much smarter than he was). IK was leading them by giving them tidbits. There was so much he left out and the rest just lies. He talked almost in taunting riddles. Of course, he knew about Bundy.

I have been cautious not to attribute any cold cases to IK, but I have given Pastor Daniel's case much thought. IK's MO fits here. When you mentioned about the tornadoes and the possibility it led him to that area, it made sense.

By the way, the eyewitness was Richardson instead of Robertson. I buy his story.

http://www.newson6.com/story/11044547/man-claims-he-saw-murder-suspect-fleeing-anadarko-church

RE: eyewitness was Richardson
TY, SS..

SeriouslySearching, long gone are the days of the FBI BSU's R.L. Depue, J. Douglas, and R. Ressler, imo. Imo, IK was a very intelligent, disciplined, and meticulous psychopathic prolific serial killer. Psychopaths of IK's caliber seem to have at least two selves; a good IK and an Evil IK, and will often times speak in evasive riddles, imo.

IK was on suicide watch for weeks after his arrest while incarcerated in the Anchorage, AK jail cell. IK convinced the psychiatric staff that he was no longer a suicide risk. Played them like a fiddle...imo

See comment #1031 for more info & article link of IK's suicide @ http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...highlight=israel+keyes+serial+killers&page=42
________________

Roger L. Depue; Pioneer of the FBI BSU;

Following his time in the clergy, Depue returned to law-enforcement and today heads one of the world’s most elite think tanks; 'The Academy'..

'My job has been to try to stop human predators before they kill again, and after studying them so closely over so many years, to me their traits seem clearly recognizable'.

'Evil is more than a vague notion. It is an entity, and it is manifest on the earth. It has reflexes and intuition, senses vulnerability, and changes its form to adapt to its surroundings. Those who do not believe the Devil walks this earth have not seen the things that I have seen'.

'Evil is not a discrete entity that springs forth fully formed. It is born in the mind, takes root there as fantasy, and prospers when normal human restraint can no longer contain it. I have seen it devour the personalities of men like Richard Speck, Jeffrey Dahmer, and Ted Bundy, turning them into blank-faced sociopaths who clearly know right from wrong, but choose, time and again, to follow their own base urges, with complete disregard for the terrible human suffering they cause'.

'I believe that every act of homicide causes a slight unbalancing in the world, and that it diminishes life’s universal equation. In the interest of justice, it is imperative that someone try to right that imbalance. But the task of fighting evil can take a terrible toll on the people who are charged with it. It can cost them their families, their equilibrium, their capacity for joy'.


http://www.learnoutloud.com/Catalog/Biography/Everyday-People/Between-Good-and-Evil/13839
 

AQuestion

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Dear WebSleuths members,

Thank you for allowing me here. I will attempt to learn the appropriate protocol as quickly as possible. I have followed the Pastor Daniels case since the beginning and wrote about it on my blog. It was an unusual thing for me to post about as I usually only discuss financial crimes or quantum physics and other such non-sense. Some people on this site sent me some comments and linked to my blog in this thread. I wanted to come by and make some comments directly.

It is very difficult for me to talk about Pastor Daniels outside of my blog. It is very emotional for me as over the years she has become quite an inspiration to me. Over the past few years I have been contacted by some of her family members, people from the area and many others. I wish you all to know that not a week goes by that someone does not read my blog specifically because they want information about the case. Pastor Daniels is not forgotten and I wish to personally thank all of you who have shown an interest in her and the case.

It IS sad. I also found it sad that she went to the church faithfully for so long, waiting for parishoners, and it ultimately cost her her life.
I would like to address this quote. It is not sad that she died doing what she absolutely believe in, it is part of the reason she is an inspiration. I am not aware of any of her family regret what she did, in fact, they have prayed for the killer's salvation. Pastor Daniels lived a life of giving and helping others even feeding and helping people in Anadarko that did not belong to her church. I would like to mention some things that might help everyone understand Pastor Daniels better.

Firstly, three years ago I was tricked into preaching and in a rather bad area where most did not speak English and I don't speak Spanish. I also kept the door open and never knew if anyone would show up. Pastor Daniels was my inspiration during this time. You have to ask yourself why she drove there every Sunday on the chance that someone might show up and it speaks to the type of person she was.

She knew that the church was dying off in that town; but, she was part of a larger church that is still going today. The two remaining members in the town were elderly and would come to church as they were able. In fact, they came the day the Pastor died and tried to get inside. They knew her car and drove around the block looking for her. She refused to leave the two remaining members of the church in that town without a preacher from their church family. That is very admirable.

Lets be clear, Anadarko is a poor town. She wasn't making money preaching at the church and probably had to pay for her own gas. She was there to meet a need and didn't care how hard it was or what it cost her. That is integrity, commitment and concern for others and that is why her story attracted my attention in the first place and her story has deeply effected me and changed my life.

I will post again about what I know about the case. In the meantime, I wish to personally thank Wolfscratch for letting me know about Israel Keys and all of the people who have contributed to this thread. It is an honor to be here.

In parting, I believe to understand this case, as much focus should be placed on who Pastor Daniels was as on the motivation of the killer. By understanding why the Pastor was there, you can begin to understand the killer's motives better in my opinion.
 

colette

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Welcome to Websleuths AQuestion, we are very glad to have you here!
 

AQuestion

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Dear Colette,

A pleasure to meet you. I have attempted to follow this thread over the years as a non-member. I have not however read the other threads and am unclear as to the proper etiquette. I don't have any insider information; but, have somehow become a resource regarding this case. I readily understand that my opinions are no more valid than anyone else's; but, I have followed this case since it happened.
 

AQuestion

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Dear WebSleuth Members,

I have given some background on me and my interest in this case. I would like to now give my perspective on what we know.

On a Sunday morning Pastor Carol Daniels of Christ Holy Sanctified Church was found murdered inside a church branch in Anadarko, Oklahoma. Here is a link to the churches website and history.

http://www.chschurch.org/about/history/

From what I can tell the church is a Pentacostal, vision driven, primarily black, fundamentalist church that is overly concerned with homosexuality. The truth is that I disagree with many of her churches doctrines. The issues would not be of concern to non-believers. To understand Pastor Daniels, it is best to understand who she was a preacher for and what they believed in. Not all churches believe the same doctrines. If you want to have a good understanding of why her church was chosen, it might help to read their doctrine as it may have played a role.

http://www.chschurch.org/about/what-we-believe/

You might also want to read about the history of the town.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anadarko,_Oklahoma

The town is about half white and half Native American with about 7% blacks. In 1913 a black man was lynched in the town. I am going to guess that Pastor Daniels knew about that. The town only has about 7,000 people.

For whatever reason, this church that was begun in Los Angeles ended up in Anadarko. My guess is because of the Anadarko Oil company and that may be why blacks were drawn to the area, to work for the oil company. In either case, they had enough members that they bought and or built a church there. The church then began dying off and not attracting new members in Anadarko.

I have to say two things now. Firstly, I am going to discuss things I am aware of in a very clinical manner from now on. Secondly, I would recommend the family not read this site or this thread as they may find it disturbing. The important thing for them to know is that people are considering all the possibilities.

Consider the fact that Pastor Daniels, an older woman with grown children, drove around 65 miles from Oklahoma City every Sunday to preach at a church that was dying and at best she might see the two elderly remaining members or have some random person enter. What type of random person might enter? All I am aware of is some Hispanic people who were homeless and she fed and helped out. The people in the immediate vicinity included black families and they did not come. After her death, the church was leveled and a monument was put up for her. The greater congregation did that within one year of her death, they didn't want the building and stopped servicing the congregation, they gave up on Anadarko, she never did. They could not destroy that church while Pastor Daniels was alive and still showing up for services.

What do we know about the killer. To start with, this was planned and they came prepared with chemicals to destroy the DNA evidence. We also know that they entered and left through the back door which could easily be seen by other homes, the police department and a gas station. We do not know when they entered; but, we know they left during broad daylight on a bright Sunday afternoon.

The killer planned it and believed that nobody would show up; but, he was wrong. The elderly couple did show up, what I do not know is the exact time they showed up. There was a sign in front of the church that announced the time of services. This is important because it means the killer knew what time the services would begin and therefore what time Pastor Daniels was certain to be alone and when others might arrive. How much of a time span did he give himself for the killing. He felt confident that he could do the murder and leave before anyone showed up or he would not have come with chemicals. I doubt she showed up 4 hours before the service. My guess is one hour early or less.

I will post later about what I know about the actual murder. My purpose of this post is to give some context to the scene rather than just look at people who could have done it. Evidence is the residue of an event and the biggest mistake, in my opinion, that people have made in the Zodiac killer case was focusing on why one suspect could have done it (Arthur Allen) rather than focusing on what we do know.

A pleasure to be here and I hope that my perspective is of some value to those who care about Pastor Daniels.
 

AQuestion

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Dear Backwoods,

I apologize for not understanding the format of the site. I noticed that you said something positive to each of my posts and thank you for your kind thoughts.
 

SeriouslySearching

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Excellent posts, AQuestion. Welcome to WS! Glad you are joining us on this case. I have followed this from the beginning myself since I am in Oklahoma. Pastor Daniels is a great inspiration due to her work and with how she led her life. It isn't often we find a person so unselfish and giving of her spirit and her time. She led by grace and example. Her family should find a sense of peace in the forgiveness and comfort Pastor Daniels would give to the one who took her life.

The backgrounds of Anadarko and the church are interesting. Anadarko is similar to many rural Oklahoma towns in the make up of the population and the roots running deep in the oil industry. Oil has given and taken away from our communities. The church dwindling to two congregants is evidence of the ebb of jobs and perhaps the lack of interest by a younger generation. This could be compounded by the church's views on issues, but it would appear this church wasn't doing much in the way of expressing those views to the public or trying to recruit new members. (That alone would make it difficult for me to see how their tenets would be part of the motive here.)

There is a timeline of 2 hours according to the surveillance camera across the street from the church. It shows the time Pastor Daniels arrived (roughly 10:00 am) and the time Bishop S. Wilson and his wife arrived (12:00pm) then found the body. There was no activity (that I am aware of) on the video of anyone else around the church during the time of the murder. This would also indicate the killer used a back entrance and exit.

You stated there were homes in the back which is true, but I believe the view was somewhat obstructed at the time of the murder. I will have to go back and find where I read it, but if I recall correctly, weeds and vines were overgrown behind the church. The view now after the memorial was placed is not how it appeared before. You can see the foliage in the background of the site after the building was razed in the lower photo of this article:

http://www.newson6.com/story/13027832/one-year-later-few-leads-in-murder-of-anadarko-pastor

The killer would still be quite brazen to walk out in broad daylight covered in blood. The witness (Richardson) indicated he was possibly wearing coveralls (would make sense). The ski mask is less likely, but I am not certain the witness fully grasped what he was looking at after he saw blood covering the person nor do we know the status of his vision. It takes time for the brain to register bizarre events and for a person who admittedly was prone to drink alcohol in excess...the process could be longer, imo. The killer was also carrying her black clothing and with a raised hand could have given the look of some type of mask from a distance.

I look forward to hearing more from your perspective.
 

Loudmouth

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I know that some of you think it's possible that this guy IK was the killer, but do you think it's possible that the killer might have been a woman? I thought the church members said they saw a "person" in dark clothing leaving the parking lot.

The other thing that suggests a female killer IMO is the fight. According to the autopsy, CD really fought with her attacker. The protracted fight may suggest an attacker of equal size.

I've had some theories about this case since day one... :fence:
 

Foxfire

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I know that some of you think it's possible that this guy IK was the killer, but do you think it's possible that the killer might have been a woman? I thought the church members said they saw a "person" in dark clothing leaving the parking lot.

The other thing that suggests a female killer IMO is the fight. According to the autopsy, CD really fought with her attacker. The protracted fight may suggest an attacker of equal size.

I've had some theories about this case since day one... :fence:

Loudmouth, imo, PCD's murder was a ritual killing by an escalated psychopathic sadistic predator. Due to her size, the posing of the body, and for various other reasons, it is highly unlikely that PCD's murderer was a woman, imo. It is not unusual for victims to fight their attackers, whether male or female.
Serial killers are rare(1% of homicides) and female serial killers are even more rare(15% of the 1% total). Monetary gain is the female SK's usual motive and there was no evidence of PCD's being robbed. Their victims are most often men and less than 11% use knifes as a weapon of choice.


Serial killer - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 

Foxfire

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<Respectfully Sniped for Focus>
Dear WebSleuths members,

Thank you for allowing me here. I will attempt to learn the appropriate protocol as quickly as possible. I have followed the Pastor Daniels case since the beginning and wrote about it on my blog. It was an unusual thing for me to post about as I usually only discuss financial crimes or quantum physics and other such non-sense. Some people on this site sent me some comments and linked to my blog in this thread. I wanted to come by and make some comments directly.

It is very difficult for me to talk about Pastor Daniels outside of my blog. It is very emotional for me as over the years she has become quite an inspiration to me. Over the past few years I have been contacted by some of her family members, people from the area and many others. I wish you all to know that not a week goes by that someone does not read my blog specifically because they want information about the case. Pastor Daniels is not forgotten and I wish to personally thank all of you who have shown an interest in her and the case.

I would like to address this quote. It is not sad that she died doing what she absolutely believe in, it is part of the reason she is an inspiration. I am not aware of any of her family regret what she did, in fact, they have prayed for the killer's salvation. Pastor Daniels lived a life of giving and helping others even feeding and helping people in Anadarko that did not belong to her church. I would like to mention some things that might help everyone understand Pastor Daniels better.

Welcome to the Websleuths Forum, AQuestion.. Pastor Carol Daniels, was/is an inspiration to many. You may want to request to a WS Moderator to become a verified insider. This verification would allow you to share info without a corresponding MS Media link with the info.

AQuestion, many, if not most of the websleuths members came here due to being touched by a specific crime victim. Websleuths is a strictly moderated crime sleuthing forum, which is also a victim/family friendly forum, and the members come from all walks of life with vast and varying credentials and life experiences.
Many ms media outlets, Dateline, crime writers, authors, law enforcement agencies & justice system orgs., etc., monitor the websleuths forum for show ideas, info, etc.

Awareness is the key in missing/murdered persons investigations, imo. AQuestion, imo, Pastor Carol Daniels and her family deserves answers and justice after almost five years. Without awareness created in her investigation the probability of her case being solved are slim and none, imo.. Thanx for what you do, AQuestion..

'Alone we can do little, but together we can accomplish anything'..Quote by Helen Keller
 

AQuestion

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"AQuestion, many, if not most of the websleuths members came here due to being touched by a specific crime victim. Websleuths is a strictly moderated crime sleuthing forum, which is also a victim/family friendly forum, and the members come from all walks of life with vast and varying credentials and life experiences.
Many ms media outlets, Dateline, crime writers, authors, law enforcement agencies & justice system orgs., etc., monitor the websleuths forum for show ideas, info, etc."

Dear Foxfire,

Thank you so much for your kindness and helping me to understand the site and it's members. I am sorry that so many have been touched by these types of crimes. I would not have joined if I thought this site was in any way disrespectful to the families. I personally feel obligated to make sure that I never cause pain to the Daniels family.

While I have a doctorate in law and was raised by a very good federal law enforcement agent, I only came here because of Pastor Daniels and I do not believe the crime was random. She was targeted because of who she was and what she did and what she did in Anadarko was preach. That I understand.

Someone killed Pastor Daniels on a Sunday just before or during the time that she should have been preaching. I propose that we consider the most likely before looking at the less likely. Let us assume that the killer actually wanted to kill Pastor Daniels, not some random preacher, not someone who was bringing in new Christians, someone who was preaching to a small number of members of their church who did not show up every weekend. We must ask ourselves why her.
 

Foxfire

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"AQuestion, many, if not most of the websleuths members came here due to being touched by a specific crime victim. Websleuths is a strictly moderated crime sleuthing forum, which is also a victim/family friendly forum, and the members come from all walks of life with vast and varying credentials and life experiences.
Many ms media outlets, Dateline, crime writers, authors, law enforcement agencies & justice system orgs., etc., monitor the websleuths forum for show ideas, info, etc."

Dear Foxfire,

Thank you so much for your kindness and helping me to understand the site and it's members. I am sorry that so many have been touched by these types of crimes. I would not have joined if I thought this site was in any way disrespectful to the families. I personally feel obligated to make sure that I never cause pain to the Daniels family.

While I have a doctorate in law and was raised by a very good federal law enforcement agent, I only came here because of Pastor Daniels and I do not believe the crime was random. She was targeted because of who she was and what she did and what she did in Anadarko was preach. That I understand.

Someone killed Pastor Daniels on a Sunday just before or during the time that she should have been preaching. I propose that we consider the most likely before looking at the less likely. Let us assume that the killer actually wanted to kill Pastor Daniels, not some random preacher, not someone who was bringing in new Christians, someone who was preaching to a small number of members of their church who did not show up every weekend. We must ask ourselves why her.

Thanx for the kind words, AQuestion.. AQ, in every case we always ask why?
AQ, I do not think her crime was random. Yet, I also don't think that it was specifically personal to Pastor Daniels, but for what she represented..

Many experts including the OK Bureau of Inv., profilers from the FBI BAU2, and the author of the Homicide Detectives Bible; Vernon Geberth Phd/retired NYPD, etc., have spent sleepless nights for almost five years now...asking why?
Even with the tremendous amount of resources utilized in her murder investigation they have yet to answer the question; why her?
AQ, imo there is a spiritual connection to every act of homicide. I firmly believe that the innocent victims will guide and speak to those who will simply listen..

Imo, Israel Keyes, answered the question; 'Why her', for investigators in one of his many riddle laden FBI interviews..

<warning graphic>
Crime Expert Analyzes Clues in Anardarko Pastor's Murder
http://www.practicalhomicide.com/current/TULSA1.htm
 

colette

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Snipped....

The killer planned it and believed that nobody would show up; but, he was wrong. The elderly couple did show up, what I do not know is the exact time they showed up. There was a sign in front of the church that announced the time of services. This is important because it means the killer knew what time the services would begin and therefore what time Pastor Daniels was certain to be alone and when others might arrive. How much of a time span did he give himself for the killing. He felt confident that he could do the murder and leave before anyone showed up or he would not have come with chemicals. I doubt she showed up 4 hours before the service. My guess is one hour early or less.

The time for the 1st event on Sunday was Sunday school at 9:15 AM. I put "9:30" on my last post about this but I reviewed the video of the sign (it is found at mark 0.28, showing 9:15AM ) and found I had made a mistake. The next event was worship at 11:15 AM.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7BYUqOcpHIc

The Christ Holy Sanctified Church in Anadarko is a familiar place to Bishop Silkey Wilson. He and his wife were headed to Anadarko on Sunday to meet Pastor Daniels for Sunday School when they were met by the unimaginable.

So unless they were early or late they arrived about 9:15 AM to help with Sunday school.

http://www.news9.com/Global/story.asp?S=11006316
 

colette

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snipped:
Imo, Israel Keyes, answered the question; 'Why her', for investigators in one of his many riddle laden FBI interviews

Which interview was this? Do you have a link? Thanks in advance....
 

AQuestion

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Dear Colette, Foxfire and members,

Thank you for the link to the video. I believe the reporters were substandard in their reports and this may lead to some bad assumptions. I do not believe that Pastor Daniels was teaching Sunday School. I know the sign said that but let us consider a couple of things.

It is reported that she did not show up until 10, so who would have been teaching Sunday school that theoretically started at 9:30? I believe the sign was old an not updated. You might notice that the sign announced other services; but, she only came on Sundays. Who taught the other services? The answer is nobody. The church was empty when she got there and she was killed before the two elderly members got there.

People might assume that the friend of 31 years who called himself a Bishop was also a preacher. I question this unless he was retired and it also speak towards why we should try and understand the church and Pastor Daniels. I refer people back to the link I provided to the churches description of it's beliefs that I previously gave.

<modsnip>

Please understand that while I am a preacher, I am not evangelical and don't seek to recruit anyone. If God wants to reach someone, he doesn't need my help. I only talk to those who want to hear as is biblical and if nobody listens, we are told to move on. My purpose in discussing the theology of Pastor Daniels church is because it might play a part in the killing and I don't think that should be discounted out of hand, there are other churches in Anadarko, hers was chosen and not because it was the most convenient.

I can almost hear Foxfire saying that IK hated all Christians and he may have and probably did. It is possible he found this little town and decided to kill a pastor; but, why choose her? She was one block away from the police station, why not choose a church away from the police station? How long would it take to scout out every church in Anadarko? It is not that big a town.

I keep asking what made this church different and what made her different. The church was different because they were incredibly fundamentalist, Pentecostal <modsnip>

I have no problem with considering IK from Alaska. I just think that we should consider the people who were local first. I ask the question, how did the person leave the scene? They walked, they were on a bike, took a car or used mass transit. I am going to guess that they did not use mass transit as a person covered in blood on a crowded bus would probably be noticed. If they used a car, where did they park it? I know the elder drove around the church and he would have noticed a car or someone walking away covered in blood. I don't believe the murderer went more than two or three blocks away.

Is there any reason someone might have been upset with Pastor Daniels for keeping that church going? Sorry, lost my train of thought for the moment.
 

Foxfire

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snipped:


Which interview was this? Do you have a link? Thanks in advance....

I'll have to go search for the link, colette.
A fire was set in Pastor Carol Daniels murder but self extinguished.

Israel Keyes, revealed to FBI investigators prior to the Currier Murders(Burlington, VT-06/08/2011) that he had considered taking victims to a church, where he would either simply leave the body to be found, or to burn the church down with the victim's body in it.
IK, drove around in Vermont, looking for suitable churches in small towns.

________________________________
While searching for a link, I ran across this statement from the April 6th IK interview, " I'm gonna give you the dots that I know that you are gonna eventually connect"..
 

Foxfire

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Just bumping; <sniped & BBM- read more>
http://www.alaskadispatch.com/article/alaska-investigators-say-keyes-felt-high-serial-killings

Before investigators could learn more, including names and burial sites, Keyes strangled himself and sliced open his wrist with a razor blade. Now, the Federal Bureau of Investigation is on a nationwide hunt, and seeking public input, to discover the additional victims.

Russo doubts all the bodies will be found. "I feel like we lost this case," he said. "And we lost because we couldn't get these people out of his head that he kept there. That's how he described it. I have these people, they're my people, they belong to me. In killing himself, that was his answer to us: You'll never get these people out of my head."

Keyes spent a long time making his own gun silencer, something he was "extremely proud of," Russo said. But he didn't want to use guns unless he had to. He preferred strangling his victims because he enjoyed watching them suffer, Russo said.

Also, Keyes said he wasn't interested in giving closure to his victims&#8217; families or investigators. In fact, he said he felt a connection with serial killer Ted Bundy because Bundy led a double life, too.
But Keyes looked down on Dennis Rader, the so-called BTK killer from Kansas who murdered 10 people.

"He described him as a wimp" Russo said. "He couldn't understand why he came out and said he was sorry for everything he'd done."

According to Russo, Keyes said his favorite serial killers "are the ones who haven't been caught."
 

Foxfire

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Dear Colette, Foxfire and members,

Thank you for the link to the video. I believe the reporters were substandard in their reports and this may lead to some bad assumptions. I do not believe that Pastor Daniels was teaching Sunday School. I know the sign said that but let us consider a couple of things.

It is reported that she did not show up until 10, so who would have been teaching Sunday school that theoretically started at 9:30? I believe the sign was old an not updated. You might notice that the sign announced other services; but, she only came on Sundays. Who taught the other services? The answer is nobody. The church was empty when she got there and she was killed before the two elderly members got there.

People might assume that the friend of 31 years who called himself a Bishop was also a preacher. I question this unless he was retired and it also speak towards why we should try and understand the church and Pastor Daniels. I refer people back to the link I provided to the churches description of it's beliefs that I previously gave.

All Christians are not the same anymore than all Democrats or Republicans are the same. All Christians may agree that Christ is our savior; but, the meaning of that simple statement has a myriad of different understandings. There are Christian groups that believe that you can only be saved if you know the proper way to pronounce his name and then others that believe the meaning of the name is more important than the sound. FYI, Jesus Christ means roughly God's Forgiveness or God's Salvation which is sometimes shortened to Messiah.

Please understand that while I am a preacher, I am not evangelical and don't seek to recruit anyone. If God wants to reach someone, he doesn't need my help. I only talk to those who want to hear as is biblical and if nobody listens, we are told to move on. My purpose in discussing the theology of Pastor Daniels church is because it might play a part in the killing and I don't think that should be discounted out of hand, there are other churches in Anadarko, hers was chosen and not because it was the most convenient.

I can almost hear Foxfire saying that IK hated all Christians and he may have and probably did. It is possible he found this little town and decided to kill a pastor; but, why choose her? She was one block away from the police station, why not choose a church away from the police station? How long would it take to scout out every church in Anadarko? It is not that big a town.

I keep asking what made this church different and what made her different. The church was different because they were incredibly fundamentalist, Pentecostal and black. While I do not believe this crime was racially motivated, I don't discount it either. We know that she was placed in the form of the cross and had her hair set fire, it is possible that some psychotic clansman would do that, it is in keeping with their tradition. I am not playing the race card, I am white; but, there had been a lynching in that town in 1913.

I have no problem with considering IK from Alaska. I just think that we should consider the people who were local first. I ask the question, how did the person leave the scene? They walked, they were on a bike, took a car or used mass transit. I am going to guess that they did not use mass transit as a person covered in blood on a crowded bus would probably be noticed. If they used a car, where did they park it? I know the elder drove around the church and he would have noticed a car or someone walking away covered in blood. I don't believe the murderer went more than two or three blocks away.

Is there any reason someone might have been upset with Pastor Daniels for keeping that church going? Sorry, lost my train of thought for the moment.

AQuestion, I honor and respect your unique insight, opinions, and theories.. I also feel that it is an asset to have a Pastor on the forum discussing Pastor Carol Daniels' case. With that said, I may respectfully disagree with many of your theories.

We have been discussing and researching Israel Keyes for about a year from the info released to the public by the FBI after his suicide; timelines, MO, family history, criminal history, traits, and other info garnered from the many hours of interviews of IK.

It is estimated that the US population consists of approximately .04% psychopaths/sociopaths. Although IK is not the first, last, or only. A very minute percentage of these psychopaths become prolific serial killers or possess the evil traits that have been amassed and observed in Israel Keyes; the Angel of Death. IK was not only a serial killer but was a very rare hybrid predator, an Emulator; a copycat of many prior. IK had no victim profile, MO, soul, or human emotions..

IK, may or may not be Pastor Carol Daniels' heinous murderer but the parallels and coincidences are beyond haunting, imo..

_____________________

Video Footage Shows the most Meticulous Serial Killer of Modern Times Toying with the FBI
http://www.slate.com/blogs/crime/20...footage_shows_the_most_meticulous_serial.html
 

Foxfire

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Dear Colette, Foxfire and members,

Thank you for the link to the video. I believe the reporters were substandard in their reports and this may lead to some bad assumptions. I do not believe that Pastor Daniels was teaching Sunday School. I know the sign said that but let us consider a couple of things.

My purpose in discussing the theology of Pastor Daniels church is because it might play a part in the killing and I don't think that should be discounted out of hand, there are other churches in Anadarko, hers was chosen and not because it was the most convenient.

I can almost hear Foxfire saying that IK hated all Christians and he may have and probably did. It is possible he found this little town and decided to kill a pastor; but, why choose her? She was one block away from the police station, why not choose a church away from the police station?

I keep asking what made this church different and what made her different. The church was different because they were incredibly fundamentalist, Pentecostal <modsnip>

I have no problem with considering IK from Alaska. I just think that we should consider the people who were local first. I ask the question, how did the person leave the scene? They walked, they were on a bike, took a car or used mass transit. I am going to guess that they did not use mass transit as a person covered in blood on a crowded bus would probably be noticed. If they used a car, where did they park it? I know the elder drove around the church and he would have noticed a car or someone walking away covered in blood. I don't believe the murderer went more than two or three blocks away.

<Respectfully snipped for focus>

AQuestion, MS Media articles are often times inaccurate, especially in cases as horrific as the murder of Pastor Carol Daniels; a small town Preacher, while in the perceived sanctity of her Church.. Remember, the only newspaper in Anardarko; The Anardarko Daily News, had burned to the ground the night before her murder..Coincidence?

IK, was very meticulous scouting out the areas and locations when choosing his victims.. The Church being in a small sleepy town and between the two Police Stations may have been one reason for him to choose that specific location. IK, was very brazen and enjoyed taunting police, as did Pastor Daniel's malignant ritual murderer.

AQuestion, IK did not hate all Christians. He was raised and came from a very religious Christian family that 'Good Israel', loved and cared for. 'Evil Israel, resented God, what he stood for, and those who preached his word', imo..

RE: Alaska

Israel Keyes was an everywhere, nowhere man.. IK had no geographical boundaries... Ik was a hiker, bicyclist, and half marathon runner.

The only mass transit that IK would have taken was when he flew the friendly skies....
 
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