Found Deceased OK, Veronica Butler 27 & Jilian Kelley 39, Vehicle Abandoned, Texas County, 30 Mar 2024 #4 *Arrests*

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Are you saying TA was going to hurt the judge on his walk to work? If Rickman is not charged, I still hope he doesn’t regain custody of his children. It seems there are several people who could have alerted Veronica and LE about these horrible plans. This case sickens me. TA did not want the children for their best interest, she wanted them to win in her crazy mind. I hope no plea deals are offered and all get the death penalty. The man who wasn’t arrested, but involved, is so interesting to me. Regardless of his knowledge of the murder plans, and possibly any knowledge of other damning evidence against the others, I wish he had tipped Veronica off. Hopefully we learn more about him as the case unfolds.
I’m so curious if Jillian was in contact with her husband. My heart breaks for all the victims, their families and friends. That misfit organization needs to be investigated thoroughly, imo.
I hope we will eventually know all the details of which Judge TA was referring to with the statement referenced in the article.

But, my recollection from prior articles on the topic was that the Judge that got 24/7 LE support was a female Judge and not a male Judge. We were going to go back to the Court record and double check the Judge that was then hearing the case but then the records were shut down so it wasn't possible to see the Judge name.

I just pray that this Judge is not protected by Cimarron County LE as everything that has gone on imo absolutely calls into question their loyalties and professionalism.

MOO
 
I wonder if TA got word that Veronica would be granted more visitation leading to full custody and after having the kids for 2 years? She was not going to let that happen.

Jmo
Imo, it's a huge jump from the unpleasantness with the custody arrangements to go to double murder.
Makes me wonder if TA & the other perps have committed crimes in the past ?
Omo.
 
I hope we will eventually know all the details of which Judge TA was referring to with the statement referenced in the article.

But, my recollection from prior articles on the topic was that the Judge that got 24/7 LE support was a female Judge and not a male Judge. We were going to go back to the Court record and double check the Judge that was then hearing the case but then the records were shut down so it wasn't possible to see the Judge name.

I just pray that this Judge is not protected by Cimarron County LE as everything that has gone on imo absolutely calls into question their loyalties and professionalism.

MOO
The judge in the NN Brian Entin interview is a municipal judge. These judges have very little power and deal with minor city issues like parking tickets and the like. They are selected by mayors.

The judges in domestic situations are district judges. They have much more power and responsibility.

Here is an article on the associate judge of Cimarron County, OK:
 
APR 17, 2024
[...]

On Tuesday, police towed away a white trailer from a property Cullum allegedly has ties to. Witnesses say they saw the trailer in the area where the women were killed.

[...]

Vincent Forbes, a local municipal court judge who says he’s a friend of Cullums, told NewsNation’s Brian Entin Tuesday that he had been in regular contact with Cullum and was even present at the residence during the police raid.

[...]

Forbes, who is also Cullum’s business partner, said he never got a “bad vibe,” describing him as “one of the nicest, funniest” people he knew. However, Forbes acknowledged that Adams seemed “a little bit out of left field.”

[...]

Forbes has been forced to resign since telling NewsNation he was shocked by the killings. The judge’s decision to speak out about the case appears to have angered local officials, with the mayor who appointed him demanding his resignation.
I do think these type of people blend in though. I wonder if he was a nice guy and only showed the nice guy side to his business partner and judge friend? I recall the guy he leased the land from also said he was a nice guy.. gave him permission to do the dirt work on the property.. he was shocked too.

I think it's possible many of the people have a good side they show to many people so they can keep up the appearances and those people then speak out and can say what a nice person so and so was.. because they probably were nice to them. Doing favors, always willing to help, never seen anything questionable. etc. I think it is shocking for those friends when something goes down that is out of the character that they know from that person.. doesn't mean they didn't do all the bad stuff, it just means some people don't see that side and it is shocking.
 
Imo, it's a huge jump from the unpleasantness with the custody arrangements to go to double murder.
Makes me wonder if TA & the other perps have committed crimes in the past ?
Omo.
The huge jump in severity does make you wonder.

However, this was so botched and outrageous that I have doubts these people are experienced in murder.
 
I do think these type of people blend in though. I wonder if he was a nice guy and only showed the nice guy side to his business partner and judge friend? I recall the guy he leased the land from also said he was a nice guy.. gave him permission to do the dirt work on the property.. he was shocked too.

I think it's possible many of the people have a good side they show to many people so they can keep up the appearances and those people then speak out and can say what a nice person so and so was.. because they probably were nice to them. Doing favors, always willing to help, never seen anything questionable. etc. I think it is shocking for those friends when something goes down that is out of the character that they know from that person.. doesn't mean they didn't do all the bad stuff, it just means some people don't see that side and it is shocking.
BTK killer was a friend to all, active in church and community, doting father and family man.
Friends and family were shocked to find out what he'd done.
 
BTK killer was a friend to all, active in church and community, doting father and family man.
Friends and family were shocked to find out what he'd done.
The Wagner family who murdered 8 members of the Rhoden family over a custody battle were all considered very religious. Attended church regularly. The grandmother who planned the murders had her own cute Facebook page where she regularly posted photos of her farm and the little pet pigs she raised and sold.
 
I posted earlier a screenshot of part of the brief filed by Wrangler's lawyer in support of Wrangler's request for sole custody, where a Sheriff Berguetski said that they would no longer be supervising the child exchange despite VB's request, because they had deemed this unnecessary since they'd never seen anything in the exchanges that caused them any concern. There was one other place in the documents where this was brought up again, and this time, he even added that they quit supervising because it was a WASTE OF POLICE RESOURCES! This is so outrageous and so obtuse that it makes me wonder if this officer was complicit in any way!
Not excusing the idiocy of the police, but I assume the custody exchanges at that time were with Wrangler R. and not TA, so yes, the handovers may have been smooth and drama free.

Is there any evidence that TA (text, phone) assured VB that "Hey, we'll drive part way and meet you at ___ location, so you don't have to drive quite so far and we'll see you there." It would be a cynical good faith gesture, with the aim of leading VB to think all was well. And VB would have felt a little safer with J along, who was also packing. However, I'm sure that VB knew her ex mother-in-law was a total viper.

As others have noted, there were accusations of sexual abuse involving VB's brother. Were these accusations something that TA made up?

MOO: I'm guessing that this is what TA used to light the fuse leading to murder when it became apparent that VB would be approved for unsuperised visitation (speculating here: and possibly leading VB to become the primary custodial parent?).
 
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Imo, it's a huge jump from the unpleasantness with the custody arrangements to go to double murder.
Makes me wonder if TA & the other perps have committed crimes in the past ?
Omo.
In the first custody hearing, Tifany came much more prepared than what Veronica or anyone ever would anticipate, and had photos of evidence and had more witnesses arranged to speak on Wrangler's account than Veronica had for herself. Tifany made it much bigger than it should have been because with her son being awarded full custody, it was only in his name in her mind, and those kids were hers. Eventually this led to her keeping the kids away from both of them, because with Wrangler's past and Tifany's influence it's easy for someone not understanding the full situation to casually assume perhaps they are better with her than their father with a criminal past and someone who she carefully molded to the public as not caring about them anyway. Veronica was young, but she had so much strength to fight this unfair battle where the cards were stacked unbeknownst and against her from the beginning. Tifany thought she really had control of them all up until Wrangler screwed up and managed to get arrested on Nov. 16 in possession of a firearm as a felon and was sentenced to six years, all suspended and placed on probation. Then, on Feb. 21, Wrangler was arrested and charged with Domestic Assault and Battery in the Presence of Minors and Public Intoxication, which prompted the district attorney to ask the court to revoke Wrangler's probation. The charge was for attacking his mother in law.

Tifany knew that this would be how Veronica would finally be awarded full custody. The court would finally award full custody to the mother, and while she could influence Wrangler to have the kids all the time, she couldn't do the same any longer with Veronica. We can't see the document that was sealed, and I'm not going to discuss it further than mentioning it, but it wouldn't matter at this stage bc unfortunately, imo Tifany had been planting seeds especially about Veronica and Wrangler for years anyway to potray a role she never was. Unfortunately, in her mind and how she convulted other weak minded people her view that no one was going to take those children away from her no matter the cost, the truth, the law, or consequence. Just imo.
 

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