Found Deceased OK, Veronica Butler 27 & Jilian Kelley 39, Vehicle Abandoned, Texas County, 30 Mar 2024 #6 *Arrests*

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Killed at the scene of the car? Both of them? Oh God. Must have been that broken hammer. Could they have all had hammers? Or more than one and they took them home? Why would they leave a broken hammer at the scene? *edited out my vote for death. Plenty of time to think about it...
Moo...they used the hammer to break the window to gain access. I don't believe either exited the car willingly.

Once out of the car, they had tasers much more effective than a hammer.
 
Or it may mean their wounds would have caused them to die, buried or not buried. I’m awaiting the autopsy but that probably won’t be known until by trial

Autopsy will come out way before trial so we will know cause of death but may not be able to access the report itself.

I hope it puts to rest morbid speculation. The poor family members....
 
To put to rest the buried dead or alive question, in the Affidaivat for PC, the last statement with the date of 4/23/24 states that Grice did admit to .."your affiant that he participated in the killing of Butler and Kelly and their SUBSEQUENT burial ."

moo
 
To put to rest the buried dead or alive question, in the Affidaivat for PC, the last statement with the date of 4/23/24 states that Grice did admit to .."your affiant that he participated in the killing of Butler and Kelly and their SUBSEQUENT burial ."

moo
English is not my first language, so I could be interpreting this written statement differently.

Him admitting his participation in the killing could mean: he participated in their initial attack, loaded the victims into back of the trailer, transporting them still alive, and then killing them by the dug up hole.
And then also admitting his involvement in subsequently burying the victims.

To me the word “killing” is used here as a a general term encompassing the totality of their actions resulting in a kill.
 
We pretty much agree but we do not know for certain when the mortal wounds were inflicted. For all we know the victims could have received a final coupe de grace from the back hoe before covering the victims with dirt. IMO that is requiring the ME some extra time to determine the actual cause(s) of death. IMO
The size of that hole keeps making me think about a show I used to watch...
Bones (season 2 episode 9)
where Brennan and Hodgens were buried alive in a car. Of course they MacGyvered their way out but irl it's literally too horrible to comprehend.
What do ya'll think?

eta I KNOW THIS ISNT EHAT HAPOENED BUT COULDVE BEEN THE PLAN
 
My question is which one of the 5 is smart enough to calculate vehicle speed, wind speed and direction, distance and weight of even a small 2lb crafting anvil so as to obtain a direct hit on the windshield of a vehicle following behind and not be seen by the driver of the target vehicle? :rolleyes:
iMO none of them. They weren't even smart enough to figure out that both women's family knew where they were going and which route they were taking. They committed the crime within 5 miles of the destination. They didn't seem to realize family would come looking for the ladies. At least VB's family was aware of the danger involved with TA. They thought Walmart phones were untraceable. They left the Kia where it was. They buried the Walmarr phones with the women. They dug the grave on property one of them rented, and the owner saw the hole. Owner was told to not tell the cops basically. I could go on and on but none of them appear to be smart enough to calculate the anvil through the windshield.
 
Hey, I posted that photo.

WOW ..... DESOLATE ....... An abandoned car would be seen for miles.

Can you or anyone actually find a sign that says Road L? And one that specifically intersects with OK 95
That also means that the Misfits likely would have known LE was at the car without needing to get close to where the Kia was. They could be on one of the little roads running parallel to 95 and be far enough away that no one would even notice even if they drove that section multiple times.
 
Torture, live burial and stringing out the deaths doesn't fit TA's MO.

She was in a hurry to get it done.....bodies needed to be moved and burried.

She had to go pick up her grandchildren.

She needed to be absolutely sure the 2 were dead and burying alive is not conducive to that.

Her whole motive was to control her grandkids not to practice sadistic murder.

I doubt she could convince 4 people to torture and string out 2 women's deaths.

2 Cents
Respectfully, we don't know what TA's MO is. Really, all that we know about her comes from these murders. But based on what we do know, I would argue that she definitely shows signs of being sadistic, and torture very clearly suits her, in purchasing not one, but five stun guns, so each of the murderers would have one, after googling which stun gun delivers the most pain. Probable bludgeoning of the victims is certainly sadistic too. And as far as being in a hurry, bc she had to pick up her grandkids, she knew where they were, and many believe that her babysitters may have known where she was. I doubt there was a designated time for her to pick them up, or that they would have been tossed out if there was, and she missed the deadline. Lastly, she apparently convinced four people to help kill 2 women that they had no connections with. I don't see how someone can draw a line by agreeing to kill someone that they don't even know, because someone asks them to, but they will only do it humanely. Apparently, neither of the women were shot, so their deaths were very likely not immediate, nor even necessarily quick. JMO
 
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Respectfully, we don't know what TA's MO is. Really, all that we know about her comes from these murders. But based on what we do know, I would argue that she definitely shows signs of being sadistic, and torture very clearly suits her, in purchasing not one, but five stun guns, so each of the murderers would have one, after googling which stun gun delivers the most pain. Probable bludgeoning of the victims is certainly sadistic too. And as far as being in a hurry, bc she had to pick up her grandkids, she knew where they were, and many believe that her babysitters may have known where she was. I doubt there was a designated time for her to pick them up, or that they would have been tossed out if there was, and she missed the deadline. Lastly, she apparently convinced four people to help kill 2 women that they had no connections with. I don't see how someone can draw a line by agreeing to kill someone that they don't even know, because someone asks them to, but they will only do it humanely. Apparently, neither of the women were shot, so their deaths were very likely not immediate, nor even necessarily quick. JMO

Is TA sadistic....yes. I have to draw the line at deliberately burying people alive and deliberate torture before burying them alive...I do not believe this case fits this senario...Unless the ME discovers this.

Adams and Cullum used death threats and intimidation on other occasions, not torture.

2 Cents
 
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Good point on having a firearm around kids. I've never owned a gun so don't know what the normal safety protocol would be but I'd bet it would be to have the weapon holstered, on your person. Her husband could answer if she did that.
I have concealed carry purses and not strapped to me in a holster. I wonder if she would have left her gun at home being that she was working as a supervisor around young children. I think she would have taken into consideration their safety. we know the killers were frequently armed, however, it may be policy and supervisor for visitation is never armed.
 
I have never watched the Walking Dead. I am basing my thought on nothing more than the absolute evil the five murderers displayed in killing. We know that TA wanted to inflict as much pain as she could. I think she wanted the fear and pain to last a while, almost like a cat toying with mice. I do not think she wanted a quick kill. Mortal wounds are wounds that will ultimately kill you, but not necessarily immediately. I have never thought that the victims were alive and well when they were buried. I'm just not sure that anyone checked for pulses, or cared to, before covering them up with dirt. JMO
All good points.

We know (or the evidence suggests...) that at least one of the women had a very serious wound based on evidence found at the car scene. JMOO, I would think that woman might at least have been unconscious (or shocky to the extent that she did not comprehend anything else), but we have no evidence that both women were injured to similar degree at the scene.

We know neither one was shot, but that's all we know. If the women had not been beaten to death by the time they were taken to the burial spot, there's a chance the misfits just shoved them in the hole and started backfilling.

I kind of doubt the misfits took the time to ascertain if either woman was still breathing. They likely didn't care. They just wanted to complete their mission.

All JMOO
 
All good points.

We know (or the evidence suggests...) that at least one of the women had a very serious wound based on evidence found at the car scene. JMOO, I would think that woman might at least have been unconscious (or shocky to the extent that she did not comprehend anything else), but we have no evidence that both women were injured to similar degree at the scene.

We know neither one was shot, but that's all we know. If the women had not been beaten to death by the time they were taken to the burial spot, there's a chance the misfits just shoved them in the hole and started backfilling.

I kind of doubt the misfits took the time to ascertain if either woman was still breathing. They likely didn't care. They just wanted to complete their mission.

All JMOO
GRT and SteveP, I agree with you both. The women were not shot and attacked with a hammer and stun guns were purchased after research for ones that would inflict the most pain. These two incidents imply to me TA wanted to cause physical and emotional pain. In my opinion TA want to torture VB in her last moments on earth as much as possible for defying her, seeking revised visitation and the goal of regaining custody of her own children.
In PG's manifesto denying citizenship he states his children are his own property, however, he and group did not feel the same rights belonged to VB. This was personal for TA, and for some unclear reason the Misfits also made it personal for themselves.
 
I have concealed carry purses and not strapped to me in a holster. I wonder if she would have left her gun at home being that she was working as a supervisor around young children. I think she would have taken into consideration their safety. we know the killers were frequently armed, however, it may be policy and supervisor for visitation is never armed.
I was coming to say the same. I carry in my purse, glove compartment, on my waist, side door pocket of my Jeep. We don't have laws in my state that tell us how to carry. I've not looked at OK law.
 
"Welllllll, who the hellllll would want to go to that church?"

Me, I'd sure like to see the books on this "church".
Do we know if they were registered as a non-profit/tax exempt 501(c)(3) organization? I would think that if they started a formal church then they would have registered it versus being more of a private group.
 
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Do we know if they were registered as a non-profit? I would think that if they started a formal church then they would have registered it? Versus more of a private group.
Register it with the Government?

More likely they registered it with themselves. Church of the Unholy Anvil.

They apparently decided they could act outside the law. Well, the law has come for them.
 
Register it with the Government?

More likely they registered it with themselves. Church of the Unholy Anvil.

They apparently decided they could act outside the law. Well, the law has come for them.

If they didn't register it as a 501(c)(3) then there would be no financial benefits and no "books to cook," so to speak.

I was responding to the posts about money laundering, donations, financial "books," etc. None of this would apply if they didn't formalize the organization to take advantage of some tax laws for tax exempt organizations and clergy.

I personally think they were just an informal group but some have suggested that there may have been benefits to one or more of the members by formalizing the organization.
 

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