OR - Emilio Hoffman, 14, killed in Troutdale high school shooting, 10 June 2014

For a family of four who hunts, having 5 rifles and/ or shotguns isn't crazy in my opinion. I grew up around and am close to people who are hunters, and we were all taught gun safety. The bed I slept in at my grandparents had a full gun rack above it! I knew not to touch without an adult helping me. None of us got hurt or hurt anybody. None of my friends or relatives have gotten hurt by the guns. Several have been hurt and even died by traffic accident. Just had to say this.
 
For a family of four who hunts, having 5 rifles and/ or shotguns isn't crazy in my opinion. I grew up around and am close to people who are hunters, and we were all taught gun safety. The bed I slept in at my grandparents had a full gun rack above it! I knew not to touch without an adult helping me. None of us got hurt or hurt anybody. None of my friends or relatives have gotten hurt by the guns. Several have been hurt and even died by traffic accident. Just had to say this.

The problem is that this may be true for 90% of the population who have guns... not going to get into the gun argument here, but how hard is it to secure guns so they can't be accessed instead of relying on kids or visitors not to touch them? My son-in-law has a gun safe and you bet they are always locked up. I have no problem with that although I doubt I would ever own a gun. Nancy Lanza evidently had a gun safe but didn't lock it (or something like that). Drawing some analogy to traffic accidents seems illogical in my mind. Gun advocates should stand up and promote gun safety not harken back to all the time someone didn't get hurt.
 
I understand what you guys are saying, my child's rifle and shotgun have locks on them, and I have the keys. I am just pointing out that hunting is still a valid thing that people do, and I can understand why some families have a lot of weapons for valid reasons. My child has those two guns as well as a crossbow, pellet and bbguns, and many knives because he hunts, camps, fishes, etc. But, yes, safety should always be the number one rule and concern, as it is at my home.
<MODSNIP>
 
I understand what you guys are saying, my child's rifle and shotgun have locks on them, and I have the keys. I am just pointing out that hunting is still a valid thing that people do, and I can understand why some families have a lot of weapons for valid reasons. My child has those two guns as well as a crossbow, pellet and bbguns, and many knives because he hunts, camps, fishes, etc. But, yes, safety should always be the number one rule and concern, as it is at my home.

<mod snip>.

There is mental health like with Adam L or the movie theater killer. They had obvious issues.

But other people kill because of hate. Ia that a mental health issue? Are people in hate groups mentally ill?

Did the Columbine kids present as mentally ill?
 
There is mental health like with Adam L or the movie theater killer. They had obvious issues.

But other people kill because of hate. Ia that a mental health issue? Are people in hate groups mentally ill?

Did the Columbine kids present as mentally ill?

People I consider "evil" fit the diagnosis of a mental disorder, antisocial personality disorder. Mental illness that I refer to is different than legal insanity, most mental disorders would not cause someone to be considered legally insane as per court. Yes, I believe in my opinion, that the Columbine boys had mental health issues based on info available to the public, as well as privately talking to someone who was close to them. I am not saying that anyone has an excuse for doing harm to others, and I believe in incarceration, etc. I think too many have little hope for "getting better" . Early detection and intervention ie prevention is, in my opinion, one key to addressing the issue. That's why I am a mental health advocate. No answer is 100% THE answer, again my opinion.
 
People I consider "evil" fit the diagnosis of a mental disorder, antisocial personality disorder. Mental illness that I refer to is different than legal insanity, most mental disorders would not cause someone to be considered legally insane as per court. Yes, I believe in my opinion, that the Columbine boys had mental health issues based on info available to the public, as well as privately talking to someone who was close to them. I am not saying that anyone has an excuse for doing harm to others, and I believe in incarceration, etc. I think too many have little hope for "getting better" . Early detection and intervention ie prevention is, in my opinion, one key to addressing the issue. That's why I am a mental health advocate. No answer is 100% THE answer, again my opinion.

What I mean is that the Columbine killers functioned. I don't think anyone pointed them out as being mentally ill until they did the deed, did they? Adam L lived life as someone who screamed red flag.

How about the mother? Did people think she had issues?

There is the problem.

Identifying those that need help. What a can of worms.
 
I'm not sure if this applies here, I posted it earlier on the Elliot Rogers thread.

Sorry if this is a repeat and I haven't scrutinized this list, but here are possible murders/mass murderers who were on prescription meds. I am familiar with one of these cases, Christopher Pittman (sad story really). I also know that this has been and is being researched by some academics, especially drugs given to adolescents ... a professor from Iowa specifically that I know of, but can't think of her name off hand.

http://www.naturalnews.com/045419_Elliot_Rodger_Xanax_psychiatric_drugs.html

Here's just some of the true history of psychiatric drugs and mass murder:

* Eric Harris age 17 (first on Zoloft then Luvox) and Dylan Klebold aged 18 (Columbine school shooting in Littleton, Colorado), killed 12 students and 1 teacher, and wounded 23 others, before killing themselves. Klebold's medical records have never been made available to the public.

* Jeff Weise, age 16, had been prescribed 60 mg/day of Prozac (three times the average starting dose for adults!) when he shot his grandfather, his grandfather's girlfriend and many fellow students at Red Lake, Minnesota. He then shot himself. 10 dead, 12 wounded.

* Cory Baadsgaard, age 16, Wahluke (Washington state) High School, was on Paxil (which caused him to have hallucinations) when he took a rifle to his high school and held 23 classmates hostage. He has no memory of the event.

* Chris Fetters, age 13, killed his favorite aunt while taking Prozac.

* Christopher Pittman, age 12, murdered both his grandparents while taking Zoloft.

* Mathew Miller, age 13, hung himself in his bedroom closet after taking Zoloft for 6 days.

* Kip Kinkel, age 15, (on Prozac and Ritalin) shot his parents while they slept then went to school and opened fire killing 2 classmates and injuring 22 shortly after beginning Prozac treatment.

* Luke Woodham, age 16 (Prozac) killed his mother and then killed two students, wounding six others.

* A boy in Pocatello, ID (Zoloft) in 1998 had a Zoloft-induced seizure that caused an armed stand off at his school.

* Michael Carneal (Ritalin), age 14, opened fire on students at a high school prayer meeting in West Paducah, Kentucky. Three teenagers were killed, five others were wounded..

* A young man in Huntsville, Alabama (Ritalin) went psychotic chopping up his parents with an ax and also killing one sibling and almost murdering another.

* Andrew Golden, age 11, (Ritalin) and Mitchell Johnson, aged 14, (Ritalin) shot 15 people, killing four students, one teacher, and wounding 10 others.

* TJ Solomon, age 15, (Ritalin) high school student in Conyers, Georgia opened fire on and wounded six of his class mates.

* Rod Mathews, age 14, (Ritalin) beat a classmate to death with a bat.

* James Wilson, age 19, (various psychiatric drugs) from Breenwood, South Carolina, took a .22 caliber revolver into an elementary school killing two young girls, and wounding seven other children and two teachers.

* Elizabeth Bush, age 13, (Paxil) was responsible for a school shooting in Pennsylvania

* Jason Hoffman (Effexor and Celexa) &#8211; school shooting in El Cajon, California

* Jarred Viktor, age 15, (Paxil), after five days on Paxil he stabbed his grandmother 61 times.

* Chris Shanahan, age 15 (Paxil) in Rigby, ID who out of the blue killed a woman.

* Jeff Franklin (Prozac and Ritalin), Huntsville, AL, killed his parents as they came home from work using a sledge hammer, hatchet, butcher knife and mechanic's file, then attacked his younger brothers and sister.

* Neal Furrow (Prozac) in LA Jewish school shooting reported to have been court-ordered to be on Prozac along with several other medications.

* Kevin Rider, age 14, was withdrawing from Prozac when he died from a gunshot wound to his head. Initially it was ruled a suicide, but two years later, the investigation into his death was opened as a possible homicide. The prime suspect, also age 14, had been taking Zoloft and other SSRI antidepressants.

* Alex Kim, age 13, hung himself shortly after his Lexapro prescription had been doubled.

* Diane Routhier was prescribed Welbutrin for gallstone problems. Six days later, after suffering many adverse effects of the drug, she shot herself.

* Billy Willkomm, an accomplished wrestler and a University of Florida student, was prescribed Prozac at the age of 17. His family found him dead of suicide &#8211; hanging from a tall ladder at the family's Gulf Shore Boulevard home in July 2002.

* Kara Jaye Anne Fuller-Otter, age 12, was on Paxil when she hung herself from a hook in her closet. Kara's parents said ".... the damn doctor wouldn't take her off it and I asked him to when we went in on the second visit. I told him I thought she was having some sort of reaction to Paxil...")

* Gareth Christian, Vancouver, age 18, was on Paxil when he committed suicide in 2002, (Gareth's father could not accept his son's death and killed himself.)

* Julie Woodward, age 17, was on Zoloft when she hung herself in her family's detached garage.

* Matthew Miller was 13 when he saw a psychiatrist because he was having difficulty at school. The psychiatrist gave him samples of Zoloft. Seven days later his mother found him dead, hanging by a belt from a laundry hook in his closet.

* Kurt Danysh, age 18, and on Prozac, killed his father with a shotgun. He is now behind prison bars, and writes letters, trying to warn the world that SSRI drugs can kill.

* Woody, age 37, committed suicide while in his 5th week of taking Zoloft. Shortly before his death his physician suggested doubling the dose of the drug. He had seen his physician only for insomnia. He had never been depressed, nor did he have any history of any mental illness symptoms.

* A boy from Houston, age 10, shot and killed his father after his Prozac dosage was increased.

* Hammad Memon, age 15, shot and killed a fellow middle school student. He had been diagnosed with ADHD and depression and was taking Zoloft and "other drugs for the conditions."

* Matti Saari, a 22-year-old culinary student, shot and killed 9 students and a teacher, and wounded another student, before killing himself. Saari was taking an SSRI and a benzodiazapine.

* Steven Kazmierczak, age 27, shot and killed five people and wounded 21 others before killing himself in a Northern Illinois University auditorium. According to his girlfriend, he had recently been taking Prozac, Xanax and Ambien. Toxicology results showed that he still had trace amounts of Xanax in his system.

* Finnish gunman Pekka-Eric Auvinen, age 18, had been taking antidepressants before he killed eight people and wounded a dozen more at Jokela High School &#8211; then he committed suicide.

* Asa Coon from Cleveland, age 14, shot and wounded four before taking his own life. Court records show Coon was on Trazodone.

* Jon Romano, age 16, on medication for depression, fired a shotgun at a teacher in his New York high school.


Missing from list... 3 of 4 known to have taken these same meds....

* What drugs was Jared Lee Loughner on, age 21... killed 6 people and injuring 14 others in Tuscon, Az?

* What drugs was James Eagan Holmes on, age 24... killed 12 people and injuring 59 others in Aurora Colorado?

* What drugs was Jacob Tyler Roberts on, age 22, killed 2 injured 1, Clackamas Or?

* What drugs was Adam Peter Lanza on, age 20, Killed 26 and wounded 2 in Newtown Ct?
 
It sounds like being diagnosed with a mental illness is an issue.

I know in other countries, people get these same meds. What is the issue?
 
It sounds like being diagnosed with a mental illness is an issue.

I know in other countries, people get these same meds. What is the issue?


I don't really know what the laws are about medications in other countries or how prolific the prescription of them is, let alone any relationship to murders/mass murders in other countries. I think there is some ethical misuse of prescription drugs by US doctors, for sure. Having said that, I think it not just a simple issue either. Here are a couple of my thoughts....

1. some of the people were prescribed more than one medication
2. some people went off their medication (but I don't know how many that accounts for nor if they were possible being over-dosed or misdiagnosed)
3. adolescents are being prescribed medications that possibly shouldn't be given to anyone but adults ... SSRI's should seriously be reconsidered
4. there are obviously other variables that should be considered such as history, e.g., abuse, homelife, etc.

Per my # 4, I believe Christopher Pittman was both abused and abruptly change from Paxil to Zoloft. Per wiki (although there are probably better sources on his case)...

He purportedly experienced a burning sensation all over his body which required pain medication. He complained about the side effects of the drug. At a subsequent doctor's visit, his dosage was increased from 100 mg daily to 200 mg daily. Zoloft does have several side-effects in children, including aggravated depression, abnormal dreams, paranoid reactions, hallucinations, aggressive behavior and delusions.

For two days prior to the shooting, Pittman may have been suffering from too high a dose of Zoloft, as well as possibly suffering from Paxil withdrawal
Two days after his dosage was doubled was when his grandparents were murdered.

It is a known fact that SSRI's increase suicidal thoughts in children and young adults to age 24.
 
I live in a foreign country for half the year, far far from the US.

The mentally ill live on the street and everyone knows who they are. They get money from the govt but have to get it everyday instead of by the month because they would spend it all in the first few minutes otherwise.

One often has fights with imaginary people. Loud, with all kinds of karate moves.

I have a friend whose son was hospitalized for mental illness probably caused by his sexual abuse as a child and then his chemical abuse starting as a teen.

I don't know what meds these people get because I don't know what the US equivalent would be. But they are anti psychotic meds.

I don't think these meds are only in the US. However, in the country I go to, there are. O guns
 
I live in a foreign country for half the year, far far from the US.

The mentally ill live on the street and everyone knows who they are. They get money from the govt but have to get it everyday instead of by the month because they would spend it all in the first few minutes otherwise.

One often has fights with imaginary people. Loud, with all kinds of karate moves.

I have a friend whose son was hospitalized for mental illness probably caused by his sexual abuse as a child and then his chemical abuse starting as a teen.

I don't know what meds these people get because I don't know what the US equivalent would be. But they are anti psychotic meds.

I don't think these meds are only in the US. However, in the country I go to, there are. O guns

I'm not arguing guns aren't a problem nor some accompanying attitudes and accessibility. Also not saying the meds are only in the US... I don't know, but as I said, it could be who they are prescribed to, what dosages they are given, their age, their background or current situation. If people want to poo poo that this is probably a more complicated problem than just mental illness or just guns or just people born evil or just any one thing then I probably don't have much to contribute here.
 
I'm not arguing guns aren't a problem nor some accompanying attitudes and accessibility. Also not saying the meds are only in the US... I don't know, but as I said, it could be who they are prescribed to, what dosages they are given, their age, their background or current situation. If people want to poo poo that this is probably a more complicated problem than just mental illness or just guns or just people born evil or just any one thing then I probably don't have much to contribute here.

I think it would be great if someone would look into the use of these drugs around the world.

We need to compare and contrast to see what other places do. Mental illness is not just an American issue. Nor are the violent games, movies, and horrible song lyrics just in the USA
 
I think it would be great if someone would look into the use of these drugs around the world.

We need to compare and contrast to see what other places do. Mental illness is not just an American issue. Nor are the violent games, movies, and horrible song lyrics just in the USA

Oh, I agree. I'm having a difficult time finding the golden article or articles that compare all this by number of shootings by percentage of population and the several or many other variables that would be of interest. I guess first I'd like to know how prevalant it is in the US vs other countries. Is gun access or attitude different (and related variables such as parenting, exposure to violence, promotion of certain ideology, etc). Is the rate of or attitude about prescribed drugs, therapy, etc. different as well as all related to prescribing drugs. And, of course, we have the problem that not all these shootings are identical.
 
Pretty much all countries around the world have access to the violent video games and movies. Kids all.over the planet are on their electronic devices much to the chagrin of their parents. They listen to,the horrifying music that talks about killing and all kinds of other horrible things,

I am not sure what their songs are saying though. They listen to American music so I can hear those lyrics.

There are shooting comparisons on the net for different countries that compare populations

For the First World countries, we are right at the very top by a huge margin.

Parenting is individual to any family.

In the country where I live, there is a lot of domestic violence, child sexual abuse,high unemployment, and rape but very very strict access to guns. Very few murders, Maybe one or two a year. The population in total is only about 200,000 though.
 
Either the reporting, or the off the record remarks from LE are SO strange. They know he wanted to kill "sinners" but yet they don't know a motive? He had all these Facebook likes of hateful, violent things, weapons, talked to many kids about gun use, worshipped the military practically - but he is portrayed as just a normal kid! Wtf? :waitasec:


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You nailed the core of the problem right here.
 
Pretty much all countries around the world have access to the violent video games and movies. Kids all.over the planet are on their electronic devices much to the chagrin of their parents. They listen to,the horrifying music that talks about killing and all kinds of other horrible things,

I am not sure what their songs are saying though. They listen to American music so I can hear those lyrics.

There are shooting comparisons on the net for different countries that compare populations

For the First World countries, we are right at the very top by a huge margin.

Parenting is individual to any family.

In the country where I live, there is a lot of domestic violence, child sexual abuse,high unemployment, and rape but very very strict access to guns. Very few murders, Maybe one or two a year. The population in total is only about 200,000 though.

Yes! We have the same amount of "crazy" as any other country. What is different about us is the unprecedented access to and obsession with guns.

Just ask Jared and his family. Yet, he was just a 'normal" kid. And noone understands what "went wrong".

It's pretty clear.
 
Sorry to 'bump' an old thread but something that's been playing on my mind recently is whether or not Emilio would have suffered. I understand he suffered two gun shot wounds to the chest, but would that have been instantly fatal? The thought of him suffering longer than a few seconds is distressing to say the least.
 
Sorry to 'bump' an old thread but something that's been playing on my mind recently is whether or not Emilio would have suffered. I understand he suffered two gun shot wounds to the chest, but would that have been instantly fatal? The thought of him suffering longer than a few seconds is distressing to say the least.

I'm not sure anyone has said. If it puts your mind at ease, I think Emilio probably died very quickly, maybe almost instantaneously.
 

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